RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Dereksteven on Saturday 17 November 18 15:15 GMT (UK)
-
Hi Folks,
I am having difficulty in trying to find my great great great grandfather - Robert Henry Haldane born about 1847 in Hawick, Roxburghshire.
According to his marriage certificate his father was Andrew Haldane and his mother Elizabeth Middleton and both were deceased when Robert married Jane McIlwee in Neilston, Renfrewshire on 4th April 1870.
Searches on IGI etc. reveal nothing for his birth entry and nothing again for the census years 1851 and 1861. I have everything else from there on.
Confusingly, his death certificate 12 Jan 1906 states his father as Robert Haldane and his mother as Elizabeth Nicol but I am assuming his son John who reported the death was unsure of Robert's father and mother since they were deceased before he was born.
Any assistance would be very valuable.
Thanks and regards
Derek S Haldane
-
Hi Derek
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Certainly tough to find anything on Robert's early years isn't it.
Is this your site http://wrightgenealogy.com/andrewhaldane.html?
I would normally be inclined to work first with parents' names given by the bride or groom than those names given by informants at the death registration of someone.
Just from Family Search, I see that first born daughters were Prudence (Jane's mother) and also Elizabeth (as registered by Robert at the time of his marriage).
With the occupation of blacksmith for Andrew, Robert's father, have you been able to make any headway on this entry from 1851 - without a Robert in the household:
Andrew Haldane 28 Blacksmith Master 2 Chen (?spl) b. Ancrum, roxburgh
Elizabeth Haldane 25 b. Morebattle, roxburgh
Catherine Haldane 5 b. Lilliesleaf, roxburgh
Helen Haldane 3 b. Innerleithen, peebles
James Shiel 20 servant
Alex Mc Lean 17 Locksmith Apprentice
Address: Part Of No 91, Innerleithen, Peebleshire
Monica
-
Not sure about the Innerleithen family. Andrew and Elizabeth/Betty baptise a number of children in Innerleithen from 1847 onwards (including Helen) and the mother is noted as Elizabeth Curle or Carle
-
Thanks Mabel. That likely takes them out of the equation though they looked very possible for sure.
Struggling so far to see anything for Robert in 1851 and 1861.
Did their two first born girls die young, Derek?
1881 for the family (you have these entries but helps with background on your post):
Robert H Haldane 37 Labourer In Printfield b. Hawick, Roxburghshire
Jane Haldane 32
Robert H Haldane 6
Andrew Haldane 4
John Haldane 2
Address: Kelburn St. Anderson's Land, Barrhead, Nielston
Monica
-
How about this on 1861 in Hawick
Andrew Holdon 40 - frame smith b Dumfries
Robert Holdon 18 - Wool Factory Worker b Dumfries
Eliza Holdon 16 - Wool Factory Worker
Thomas Holdon 14
Andrew Holdon 10
Joseph Holdon 5
Hawick; ED 11; Page 10; Line 9
1851 shows mother is Elizabeth
Only problem being likely baptisms have mother as Elizabeth Welsh
-
Saw that one and also a question mark with mother's maiden name.
Always the possibility that Robert may have been illegitimate also. It is mentioned here http://wrightgenealogy.com/roberthaldane3.html that Robery Henry went by the name of Middleton on his 1901 census entry.
The Andrew Haldane we discussed previously in 1841. He is the only Andrew Haldane, a blacksmith by trade, that I have found so far in Roxburghshire https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=78001034
Monica
-
That link's not working for me for some reason
the Dumfries Andrew is a brass founder in 1841
His wife I suspect has died before 1861 and Andrew possibly by 1871, as younger Holden children are with stepmother Isabella
-
Mabel, re inserted the link and seems to now work. I made an error stating that this Andrew was with family. He is in fact in the Brown household under apprenticeship likely to William Brown.
Monica
-
Hi Monica and Mabel,
Thanks for the quick response.
No, http://wrightgenealogy.com/andrewhaldane.html? is not my site but I have an Ancestry account and further information can be viewed here -
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/154084716/family
Yes, Prudence and Elizabeth were the first born but both died from scarlet fever in 1875.
The 1851 Census entry for Robert's alledged father - Andrew Haldane 28 Blacksmith Master 2 Chen (?spl) b. Ancrum, roxburgh - 2 Chen is actually 2 Men - is all what I've got and with no mention of Robert.
There's also the issues of the multiple pronounciations of the surname Haldane which doesn't really help in cross referencing the census entries so too regarding the Scotting statutory register for BDM's. There are Holdon, Holdane, Haldan, Halden
For example I am nearly certain this is Robert (HOldane) in the 1871 England Census for the Settle to Carlisle railway at Mallerstang, Westmorland - ED: 14, Schedule: 60, Piece: 5271, Folio: 67, Page: 16, since at the time of his wedding in 1870 his occupation is given as a Railway Labourer. But I have nothing else for the Census years 1851 and 1861.
I'm still trying to decipher an Andrew Holdon's death certificate as he was married twice it seems. First to an Elizabeth Welsh b1825 d12/5/1860 then to a Isabella Carson nee Scott b1814 they married 4/7/1862. In the death certificate there are 2 named entries for his former partners Elizabeth and Isabella but am having difficulty in determining the Elizabeth surname.
Yes the 1901 Census for Robert Henry Haldane was a strange one, why did he and the rest of the family change to Middleton and why drop the Robert and use Henry instead.
I only stumbled across it while browsing through the Census for that particular area of Barrhead for another branch of the Haldane family.
I just need to know more about the Middleton name connection which seems important to him - and me!
Thanks and regards
Derek
-
Derek, you can add a clip of the image section you are having a problem deciphering and/or contact SP and request a sharper scan of the image. This can help a lot in making out what is written.
Those missing years of 1851 and 1861 are a real pain for sure!
Monica
-
Hi Monica,
Now attached and thanks again.
Regards
Derek
-
You have from the cert the names that you thought you had:
'Widower of Elizabeth Welsh and married to Isabella Carson maiden name Scott"
You have dates there for Elizabeth death in 1860 and the 1862 remarriage to Isabella. This would have given you additional verification of names etc.
And Andrew's death in 1867 back in Hawick :-\
Monica
-
You mentioned a possible 1871 census entry for Robert. From Family Search, (you need to be signed on to view now) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V557-JJF I would agree this looks very likely for him.
Have you got his wife in 1871 to let you confirm? I saw a possible one for her, a Jane Holden, lodging in 1871 at the household of an Agnes Angers in Neilston.
He is so consistent for sure with c. 1847 and Hawick isn't he.
Monica
-
:-\ Just reviewing things. Something is not right here.
The death cert you have above is that for the Andrew Holdane that Mabel mentioned yesterday. It was this Andrew that was married to first Elizabeth Welsh and then, from what have, Isabella Carson/Scott. As you can see from his death cert, his occupation shows as a frame smith. This is him in 1861 I think:
Andrew Holdon 40 frame smith b. Dumfries
Robert Holdon 18 Wool Factory Worker b. Dumfries
Eliza Holdon 16 Wool Factory Worker b. Dumfries https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1Y-17P
Thomas Holdon 14 b. Dumfries https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1Y-1XT
Andrew Holdon 10 b. Dumfries
Joseph Holdon 5 b. Hawick
Address: 50 Loan, Hawick
They look to have lost a few children very young going by the birth indexes... You mentioned that Elizabeth Welsh had died 12 May 1860. She had not long given birth to Jessie https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQC5-DN
Monica
-
What happened with Andrew, the blacksmith, and wife Elizabeth Curle :-\
The last child I can see for them is Elizabeth born 29 March 1855 in Innerleithen Peebles.
No death showing for Elizabeth Curle/Haldane (with a good sprinkling of wildcards) on SP that I can see....as you know on SP, always easier to look for married women with their two surnames. They may have left Scotland?
Monica
-
What happened with Andrew, the blacksmith, and wife Elizabeth Curle :-\
New Zealand! See www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/79307569/person/48399692868/facts
There are a number of trees showing for this line apart from this one.
We may not be making any headway with Robert so far, but we seem to likely know where Andrew is ::)
Monica
PS: On these trees, there looks to be a photo for Andrew and wife in some family booklet that has been created by family members.
-
The IGI still has very incomplete coverage of Scottish church registers.
I just looked in ScotlandsPeople.gov.uk and there's a baptism in the "other church registers" (i.e. non Church of Scotland) as below:
Robert Middleton
Parents Robert Middleton and Elizabeth Nichol
Born 25 Feb 1846
Baptised 15 Mar 1846
At Newhills Free, Aberdeenshire
That has to be worth following up.
Good luck!
-
P.S. This Robert Middleton appears in the 1851 Newhills census with his parents.
And it looks as though his mother Elizabeth Nichol/Middleton died at Newhills in 1860, aged 44.
Though checking further the son Robert Middleton died at Newhills in 1873 aged 26. If he was thus presumably a different man it seems a remarkable coincidence of names, if not places so much.
-
Found the likely family in 1851 Hawick (image online at ScotlandsPeople):
Andrew Holdon, 26, Framesmith Journeyman
Wife Elizabeth, 24
Children Robert 8, Elizabeth 6, Phemy ?3 and Andrew 1
All born Dumfries, all listed at lodgers, so no clear relationships noted
Living in Kirkgate, Hawick
So they must have moved to Hawick very recently.
-
This looks to be the family we have discussed earlier. Elizabeth, wife, had maiden name of Welsh.
Monica :)
-
Hi Folks,
Thank you all for your support and input, it looks like Robert's family to me also.
Coincidently, there was another Andrew Haldane around the same area who also married a second time to another Isabella and I think that this threw me a bit.
Anyway thank again for all your help.
Derek
-
Derek, the family lodging in Hawick in 1851 is the one we have discussed already. Wife is Elizabeth Welsh. We also have this family in 1861. This Andrew is the one you have post a death reg for.
I thought we have been looking for an Andrew, blacksmith, and Elizabeth Middleton?
Monica
-
Unless another obvious candidate family turns up, I suspect you're going to have to weigh up the probabilities of the various options.
Information on marriage records is usually more reliable than a death certificate, but could still be wrong.
Your Robert consistently thought he was from Hawick. The Innerleithen family has no apparent Hawick link (and no obvious Robert) - and Innerleithen is quite some distance from Hawick back then.
The Hawick Holdon family at least has a Robert of roughly the right age. If he moved to Hawick as a youngster from Dumfries he may not have realised/remembered he was born elsewhere. On the downside the father's a framesmith not a blacksmith. But I could easily imagine them being muddled up at registration of the marriage.
Neither family has the "right" mother's maiden name, but Robert may have been confused about that one too, especially if Elizabeth died when he was young.
Where this doesn't help is the Middleton connection. I know it's stretching, but can we be sure that 1901 census name was recorded correctly?
I also checked scottishindexes.com for any obvious mentions of the family which might have helped. But no luck.
One last thought from me for now: if the Innerleithen family had a child born in 1855 then its birth certificate, if registered that same year, should have counts of the numbers of other children (living and dead) born to the parents already. So if there might be a mystery Robert for both parents that may be helpful. Certificate image available online at ScotlandsPeople.
But I'm still personally favouring the Hawick family.
-
Robert tended to tell wee fibs regarding information on BMDs and census. On his Marriage in 1970 to Jane McIlwee he gives his deceased mother's maiden surname as Middleton. This is quite interesting if you continue looking forward to the 1901 census and find he has used Middleton as the family surname. Luckily the family names are distinct enough to clear things up. But just wait till you get to his son Robert who marries Margaret Ann Walker in 1895 then in 1942 on her death cert gives her sister's name Margaret Strachan Walker (Yes they had 2 Margarets both alive and well. I had to trace both to be 100% sure which was my Gr Great Gran. )
Anyway Robert (who had married Jane McIlwee) Father was Andrew and his Mum Elizabeth Welsh (Not Middleton) She was one of the early burials in the (then new) Hawick cemetery. Her grave would be roughly in a flower bed near the caretakers home. Now Andrew's father was also an Andrew.You will find the families in Dumfries and before that Troqueer and Kirkcudbright. Luckily the Kirk sessions are available and you will find Andrew admits to being the father of Margaret McKnight's child in 1810. And later in 1811 we find he has fathered a child with Mary McKnight and later they admit to an irregular marriage.
By far my Father's family has some of the most entertaining rellies.
(Also it is sadly true that Robert and Jane lost their 1st two daughters. Wee Elizabeth on the 5th of July 1875 registered by her father and immediately below her wee sister Prudence died on the 6th of July 1875, the day before her 2nd birthday. Registered by the Registrar himself as "neighbor" . I can't imagine losing two within hours of each other while pregnant with their 3rd. My Gr Great Granpy born in Dec 1875.
Let me know if you would like any help, I would love to see how we connect. This is the 1st time I have found anyone from our branch.