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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Hogan on Sunday 04 November 18 14:03 GMT (UK)
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Unsure here, so asking advice
This is a friends relative
THOMAS JOHN WATSON Born 1926 Liverpool, died 1970 Liverpool.
His parents where THOMAS WATSON and DORIS RUSSELL, married 1925 Liverpool.
OK, I have the numbers for the certificates births, marriage, death etc. and ready to order. Just one thing...... Family rumour has it that Doris Russell had been born in Ireland and had come to Liverpool and been disowned by her family when she married Thomas? My friend is too young to remember his Grandma Doris and has no idea when she died, it may have been after he was born? Now, will the marriage certificate list the place of birth for Doris? as I have no certain birth or death record, though the marriage is correct. If not, then is there any way we can find out if she was from Ireland and the story is true?
Thanks all
Ant
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The marriage certificate will only give the abode at time of marriage not the place of birth.
Have you tried looking for her on the 1939 register as that shoud give a date of birth though not the place
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I have, but with no luck.
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
just put name in
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the banns give her address as
81 Paradise st, Doris she is 23
and 1 Hanson St for Thomas, he is 22 a mariner,
Church St Nicholas
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THANK YOU Radcliff
With the banns at St Nicholas, would the marriage be as well, and is that the church by the Pier Head?
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most likely
I can not see a Doris birth in Ireland matching the ages given in banns,
Have you discounted the Doris's in 1911, English census
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Lancashire BMD index indicates Register Office or Registrar attended for marriage.
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There is a 1902 birth in Dublin for a Doris Russell-Cruise. Could she have dropped the name?
I am looking over the 1911 UK census again now we have more of an idea when she was born.
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81 Paradise Street appears to have been a Public House
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There is a 1902 birth in Dublin for a Doris Russell-Cruise. Could she have dropped the name?
I am looking over the 1911 UK census again now we have more of an idea when she was born.
Could this be her death
Doris Russell Cruise
Death - Oct - Dec 1917
Dublin South, Ireland
Age 17
Volume Number 2
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That is her death for certain. Rule that one out.
Thanks Rosie
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The wedding for Doris and Thomas is 10 Feb 1925, yet the Banns go 3 Sunday's from 15 Feb to 1st March. I thought the banns were before the wedding.
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Could it be that the Banns were read in St Nicholas for one party but the marriage took place in a Catholic Church?
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I'm finding it difficult to find any obvious deaths for Doris and husband Thomas. Did they both stay in Lancashire, did Doris maybe marry again?
Found son Thomas John's birth 1926 in Liverpool - were there 2 further children? i.e. a daughter 1929 and son 1931 both in West Derby regn. district.
Seems odd not to find Doris at least on 1939 register (even if husband was away). Nor can I find them listed on Liverpool electoral rolls.
Annette
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Did Doris remarry?
There is a possible burial for the child found by Annette -born 1929 and buried 1930.
This might indicate that there is a name Clucas.
1939 seems to support this name for Doris although the year of birth is 1901.
There is a marriage 1941 for Doris Watson and William Clucas - this would be some time after the relationship.
There is a death in 1980.
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This is very strange
The children born 1929 and 1931 have entries for Watson, but also for Clucas? Identical entries.
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That supports the idea of a relationship.
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For info..... it appears that William has a middle name
William Joseph Clucas Death Age: 69
Birth 24 Apr 1901 Mar 1971 Liverpool. Volume: 10d Page: 1621
William Joseph Clucas
Birth 24 Apr 1901 Liverpool, Lancashire
Date: 1908-1955
Service NUmber: DA 22790
William & Doris Clucas
Residence Year: 1934-1935
Street address: 88 Crown Street Lancashire
Doris Clucas
Residence Year: 1945
Street address: 36c Myrtle Gardens Lancashire
Added
Liverpool ER
William J & Doris at number 46c Myrtle Gardens in 1970
plus a male surname Clucas
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If you have access to FindMyPast, there are possible newspaper death announcements.
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splendid work Heywood,
the 1911 census has a Doris Russell born Birkdale circa 1903,boarding with Charles and Annie Downes,
am not convinced yours is Irish at this point
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Thank you all.
My friend has confirmed that he knows his nan's birthday was 15 October. Doris Clucas is given as 15 Oct on her 1980 death record. There is little doubt it is her .
You are all fantastic, thank you.
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William & Doris Clucas
Residence Year: 1934-1935
Street address: 88 Crown Street Lancashire
If those years are correct, then they were living together long before they married.
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William & Doris Clucas
Residence Year: 1934-1935
Street address: 88 Crown Street Lancashire
If those years are correct, then they were living together long before they married.
The details were from Liverpool, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1970
There maybe another child
birth Clucas/Russell 1936
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GOV UK Probate
Doris Clucas
of St Vincents Hospice
26 Broadgreens Road Liverpool
died 12th May 1980
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There is another child, 1936.
amazing info thank you all.
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possible ?
stillborn child
of William Joseph Clucas and Doris
126 Smithdown Road
buried Toxteth
6th March 1941
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They must have been together from 1929 at least with the birth of Catherine. This is the death I mentioned earlier.
Catholic burial Yew Tree Cemetery
7th May 1930
Catherine Watson otherwise Clucas 16 months 128 Smithdown Road grave 3A 289
The entry below is strange/coincidental
7th May 1930
Maude Coghan - 53 yrs the same address 128 Smithdown Road
Different grave number 3A 269
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Toxteth workhouse was it not in Smithdown Road ?
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Thank you Heywood
The address is Sefton General Hospital
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Thank you Heywood
The address is Sefton General Hospital
Yes, it turned into the hospital.
It is an asda now.
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Oh that explains it.
Thank you.
I only recall Smithdown Road as Student accommodation. :)
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I only recall Smithdown Road as Student accommodation. :)
It still is
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Well Hogan,no need to order loads of certificates now,but perhaps the marriage to William Clucas may be interesting ,it will give her fathers name and also if she was a widow
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For info in case it relates .........
CLUCAS, WILLIAM JOSEPH mmn MCMAHON 
1901 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 571
CLUCAS, GEORGE Mmn MCMAHON
1896 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 553
William Edward Clucas
Age: 22
Marriage 1 Jan 1894 Saint George,Douglas,Isle of Man,England
Spouse: Mary Mac Mahon
William E Clucas 29 Isle of Man
Mary Clucas 28 Liverpool
Herbert Clucas 10
George Clucas 4
1901 RG13; Piece: 3493; Folio: 112; Page: 17
William Edward Clucas
Mary Clucas
William Joseph Clucas
Residence Year: 1925
Street address: 23 Troughton St Lancashire
William Edward Clucas
Mary Clucas
William Joseph Clucas
C V Clucas ( Female)
Residence Year: 1929-1930
Street address: 23 Troughton St
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One to look up
Julia Doris Russell, october 1901 mother Gummerson
West Derby
her father is from Belfast,and they are living in Bootle in 1911
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I looked at that one. Would Julia not be used later on, for marriage doc etc?
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Julia Doris' parents were Thomas Vernon Russell and Julia (nee Gummerson) as already mentioned.
They were obviously a Catholic family as Thomas Vernon Russell bur.25/5/1935 Ford Cemetery, Liverpool - of 10 Elliot Street, Bootle and his wife bur.6/1/1916, same address, and both buried in same grave - number R648.
Can see no marriage or death for a Julia Doris Russell (found 1 marriage but their birthdate was 9 years out) so, at the moment, she looks an extremely good candidate for 'Doris Russell'. Just need to see 'Thomas Vernon Russell' as her father on one of her marriage certificates.
I know this thread is about Doris herself, but is anything else known about Thomas Watson, bc.1902/3, mariner? I know first child was Thomas John b.1926, and that Doris then appears to have had a daughter b.1929, died 1930 and son in 1931 - the latter 2 apparently with William Cluson who she later marries. We know she was already living as Cluson in 1939 and there is a redacted entry which I would guess is the son born 1931. So where was Thomas John Russell born 1926 - with his father or some other member of his fathers family. Is it known who Thomas John Russell was brought up by?
Annette
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I’ve been looking at this birth record..............does anyone think this might be a possibility for the Doris Russell that married Thomas Watson/William Joseph Clucas - obviously her marriage certificate should indicate her father's name
Doris HUTCHINSON mmn left blank
1901 D Quarter in LANCASTER Volume 08E Page 708
Doris HUTCHINSON age 9 born Lancaster appears to be with
Edmund RUSSELL 28 & Mary 35 Burton In Lonsdale, Yorkshire and
sibling Norman Russell ,
Niece Hannah Hutchinson is also with them on
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWTP-YSL
Norman RUSSELL mmn HUTCHINSON
1909 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 737
This appears to be Mary HUTCHINSON on 1901 census with
her parents and siblings https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KW-T8X
1906 Dec Chorlton Lancashire Volume: 8c page: 1525
Edmund RUSSELL
Name on same page
Mary HUTCHINSON
RUSSELL Edmund
HUTCHINSON Mary
1906 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended
Mary Russell Death Age: 67 Mar 1940 Liverpool North Volume: 8b Page: 925
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Ladyhawk I was also looking at this one,in 1911 with her stepfather Edmund
and think she is another potential Doris
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Thomas John Watson was born 17 Jan 1926
My friend was a very young boy when he died so he recalls nothing about him. He had no contact with his Watson family so has no idea. It is all a strange one. He must be somewhere. We know he is in Liverpool by 1949 when he marries. but where was he before...Mystery this lot are.
If his father Thomas Watson was a Mariner, could he have died at sea or in another country?
Doris does not marry Clucas until 1941, even though they are clearly together by 1928 and have kids. So, did Thomas Watson die around 1940/41 and they could then get married? did he die on a ship in WW2? I can find nothing for this, but could it be possible?
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If your friend wants to research more, the marriage certificate would show fathers’ names, occupations etc.
My grandparents waited to marry until after the death of a previous spouse. That was over 30yrs since the birth of their first child.- a long time to wait.
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He is ordering them. I think we need the fathers names to carry on.
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That’s the best way forward. :)
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The youngster may have been evacuated by 1939, he would have been 13 ,so a difficult one to pin down unless you find his school records