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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: bjo on Saturday 03 November 18 02:10 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have learned a lot about my Grandfather from these boards and would like to find out a bit more if possible.
My Grandfather Arthur Edmond ORSLER was a private in the ist Battalion rifle brigade who died at Au bon Gite near Langemark on 2nd October 1917.
I have what I think is his enlistment card but there is no date for his enlistment. There looks that he may have been wounded (can't read it very well) and then went back into battle.
My questions are: When did he enlist, what were his injuries and when did he sustain them. Would he have been sent back to England to recover. What battles would he have fought in with that regiment.
Any new information will be good to know.
Thank you
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Your image is the second of 3 on Anc*****.
The first page of the enlistment form has him signing up on 6 December 1915 in Shoreditch. He was posted to the Reserve and not mobilised until 29 Apr 1916. The date of his posting to the BEF is too faded to read.
The description of the wounds looks like Sm wnd head hands & shldr and the date might be 4.11.16, but the writing is not easy to read.
The timeline on page 3 indicates that Arthur was sent back to England on 13 Nov 1916 where he would most likely have spent time in a military hospital. He recovered well enough to be posted back to his unit and returned to France on 15 Jun 1917. (NOTE - "France" could mean either France or Belgium).
I cannot see Arthur's medical record on Anc***** and the Register of Soldiers' Effects has no detail other than Killed in Action 2.10.17 Belgium.
A snippet of the third page is below:
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Just because it's a nice thing to have - this is Arthur's signature on the first page of his attestation form:
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A few more snippets to add to Philip's find on Ancestry (there are no asterisks in the name!).
His enlistment and joining dates suggest he volunteered under the Derby Scheme whereby, before conscription, men volunteered, were attested, place on the reserve, sent home and then recalled when required.
He served in France first from 14 September 1916 with 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade who he joined on 29 September. Less than a month later on 27 October he sustained the wounds that resulted in him being sent back to England.
When he recovered he went back in June 1917, this time to 1st Battalion arriving with them on 14 July 1917.
His medal card is under Arthur E Osler and records his British War and Victory medals. He left his effects of £2 3s 8d and his war gratuity of £6 to his widow Laura (listed as Winters -she had re-married).
On the day he was killed in the area of Langemark, North East of Ypres , the war diary says "Front line quiet. Support Company and Battalion HQ heavily shelled"
If you want to look at the war diaries to see what the 2nd and then 1st Battalion were involved in they can be downloaded from the National Archives at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017311 (2nd Bn 1916)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14016999 (There are two for 1 Bn covering the time he was there)
The diaries are on Ancestry if you have a sub?
MaxD
MaxD
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He was wounded near Trones Wood France. One of 230 casualties suffered during the operations there.
The 2nd. went out on the 25th. Oct. & he was reported wounded on the 27th. He went through the medical chain & sent back to the UK on the 12th. Nov.
The assault he was involved in was North of Trones Wood & East of Goudecourt (square N.28.d on this map)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465185
The below map is from the diary & gives a precise account of what they were doing.
The red dots represent 2/RB who were tasked with taking Zenith & Eclipse trenches with the usual depressing result. Although they succeeded the Bde. suffered over a thousand casualties.
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Oh my !! Thank you so much for this new information. I can barely read it all without feeling so very sad. I note with interest that Arthur Edmond joined up two weeks before his only child was born (My Father Arthur William Orsler b. 30.12.1915)
A couple of questions before I digest all this new information.
I thought that as his remains were not found that he was classed as MIA ? Or is that the same as 'killed in action'. He is remembered on the wall at Tyne Cot.
I wonder what the sm means in 'Sm wnd head hands & shldr'
I had this information that I attach sent to me some years ago from this forum, and it seems to fit with this new information.
I can see now that Arthur Edmond started service in the 2nd Btn rifle brigade and that after being sent home due to wounds he went back and joined the 1st Btn rifle brigade.
From the dates I have now seen it appears that he wasn't a very lucky man. Then again not many were.
My Dad was adopted soon after the war as his Mother had died in 1920. So My Dad never knew anything at all about his parents. I would loved to have been able to show him all that I now know.
Many thanks once again
Brenda
PS One thing that I find baffling is why the signature on his enlistment is so different writing to the part where it states 'I, Arthur Edmond Orsler' unless that part was filled in by another person receiving the enlistments ?
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I thought that as his remains were not found that he was classed as MIA ? Or is that the same as 'killed in action'. He is remembered on the wall at Tyne Cot.
PS One thing that I find baffling is why the signature on his enlistment is so different writing to the part where it states 'I, Arthur Edmond Orsler' unless that part was filled in by another person receiving the enlistments ?
"Missing in action" or "Missing presumed killed" means that no-one knew what happened. "Killed in Action" can mean that Arthur was known to have been killed, but (in the middle of an engagement) his body was not recovered.
The form would have been filled in by the recruiter, and Arthur signed it. Bear in mind that education for working class people could be very rudimentary and not everyone was literate, so it was easier and faster for the recruiter to fill in the forms.
Philip
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Thank you Philip.
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I don't think it's an "s". The usual term is GSW (gun shot wound) which I think it's supposed to be although the nature of his wounds would indicate shrapnel. The medical services didn't differentiate one from the other.
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Thank you Jim.
Yes the word does appear that it could be a G rather than an S.
The extent of injuries of head, hands, shoulder could be from shrapnel or maybe machine gun.
Brenda
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Definitely shrapnel.
This is the diary entry for the 2nd. Oct. It doesn't say what the casualties were for that day so I don't know where that came from. The diary gives the monthly figures but they are not broken down to a day either.
He certainly died from the shelling of the HQ & support trench on the 2nd.
Below is a bit more info.
Au Bon Gite 1917. A German block house.
Map of it from the diary in square 28.
It doesn't give precise locations for the support trench but probably White trench in the corner of square 29.
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Thank you once again Jim. That front line looks very close. I don't remember where I got the information from of the 2nd Oct 1917. I do recall that it was sent to me. So I don't know how accurate it was. I did make notes when I got the info and substituted my Grandfather's name in place of ''your man'' (that was on the original text) I wish that I knew where I got it from.
Brenda
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The register of soldiers effects & the CWGC state he was killed on the 2nd.
There is no information that I can see that's says 2 were wounded & 1 man killed MIA.
It's possible he was recovered & buried but the location was never found. That happened often.
It's also possible he was buried in one of the CWGC cemeteries but not identified ie. a soldier "known unto God".
A bit more information.
This is from the intel. report.
The areas concerned I've shaded red.
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I would suggest your original correspondent didn't quite get the circumstances correct.
confirms that the Rifle Brigade deployment that days was 2 companies in the front line, 2 companies in support at Au Bon Gite and the HQ at U 29 b 8 9. It records the only hostile shelling that day was on U 29 b 68 98. Given that this location is but 100 yards or so from the area that was shelled, I'd suggest that your man was either in battalion HQ or moving to or from it.
MaxD
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I've added to my above post after finding the intel. report re. shelling on the 2nd.
2 areas of concentration; 1 at rear of Au Bon Gite which you mention & the other at the double cotts & puff houses.
A more accurate location for the double cotts & puff house.
Based on that it's looking like the support was along the blue line in 28 from the road to the Brigade boundary.
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Thank you Jim for the time that you have taken to give me all that information.
Brenda
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Thank you Max. I wish that I had kept the source of my information.
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Hello Jim.
I have found out where I got that information about 2 men being wounded and one being killed on 2nd Oct 1917.
It was from your good self back in March 2017 !!
''OK. I've had another look this time in the Brigade diary to try & find where exactly the 2 support Coys. were as these are the one's that were shelled.
Your man must have been in support as the front line was quiet on the 2nd.
According to the Bde. diary 1/RB support were at Au Bon Gite on the 1st. & 2nd. Oct. taking in prisoners & moving up small arms ammunition to the front.
So although 1/RB were in the position previously marked on the map I don't believe your man was with them instead I believe he was in a support Coy at Au Bon Gite.
The Batt. HQ was also shelled.
The Bde. diary states that on the 2nd. Oct. 1 man was killed & 2 wounded as a result of the shelling, the 1 man being yours.''
Brenda
ps I I knew that I had seen it somewhere !
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I'll go & find a shell hole to lie down in.