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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Plonkish on Wednesday 17 October 18 12:20 BST (UK)
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Hello :) I'm new to this forum (this is my first post)
I have been researching my family for a while and have been more successful with some lines, than others. I have come to a halt with Ralph Pentland and after searching this forum for the Pentland name, it looks as though there are far more Pentlands in Ireland than in Scotland! I'm beginning to wonder if he had come from Ireland (for work maybe?) Do any of you have tips on searching for people emigrating between Ireland and Scotland?
Some background: All I know of Ralph Pentland is that he married Mary McGowan and was a cab driver. Their son William John Pentland was born in 1833 in Bothwell (that's how I have the parents' names). Scotland's People doesn't seem to have anything, even in parish records.
As an aside, the name Ralph has come totally out of the blue after successive generations of Johns, Williams and Josephs and I'm also curious as to how it would have been pronounced in that part of Scotland at that time.
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Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
There were PENTLANDs in Midlothian going back at least to the early 1600s.
I had a quick lookon FamilySearch for Ralph, Rolf, Rafe, Raiff and so on, but couldn't immediately see your man.
Philip
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Some background: All I know of Ralph Pentland is that he married Mary McGowan and was a cab driver. Their son William John Pentland was born in 1833 in Bothwell (that's how I have the parents' names. Scotland's People doesn't seem to have anything, even in parish records.
Welcome.
Firstly, if you cannot find a birth/baptism record on SP, what document/s have you found that indicate William was born in Bothwell in 1833 and give/s his parents names? Does he and/or his parents appear in any Census? Did he or they die in Scotland?
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Thank you both for the welcome :)
I have the register of William's death that shows his name etc then the names of his parents. I'm pretty sure of that document as everything else matches. I could attach it here (if we are allowed to attach documents from Scotland's People.
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Names and details on death certificates are, unfortunately, only as good as the knowledge and/or accurate recollection ability of the person providing the info and/or the accuracy of the person recording the info.
A death certificate does not usually list place of birth. Was Bothwell where he died?
It is fine to post a portion of the record.
You say:
everything else matches
Matches what? Other than a death certificate, what other records have you found for William?
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Yes good point! I'll check the information I have when I'm home later.
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Struggling to see William in the censuses :-\
Did he die in 1888 in Dalziel at the age of 55?
Was he married to an Elizabeth Mair/Main, who died also in Dalziel in 1894 at the age of 57?
I can see two children to this couple:
Joseph Pentland b. 1857 in Bothwell
William John Pentland b. 1862 in Old Monkland
Can't easily see a Scottish marriage for them either. The 1862 birth of son William John should include a date and place of marriage for parents.
Monica
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Entry here for 1891, following death of husband in 1888 possibly, for Elizabeth and son William:
Eliz Pentland 50 b. Ireland
William Pentland 28 Iron Work Labourer b. Old Monkland
Address: 6 Globe Buildings, Dalziel
Death of other son Joseph, aged 44, in 1901 in Dalziel?
Monica
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Joseph with a wife and children in Bridge Street, Dalziel district at 1891.
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. Pentland. —ln loving memory of my dear husband, Joseph Pentland, who died at 1 Duke Street, 10th July, 1901, aged 44 years
in Motherwell Times.
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Struggling to see William in the censuses :-\
Did he die in 1888 in Dalziel at the age of 55?
Was he married to an Elizabeth Mair/Main, who died also in Dalziel in 1894 at the age of 57?
I can see two children to this couple:
Joseph Pentland b. 1857 in Bothwell
William John Pentland b. 1862 in Old Monkland
Can't easily see a Scottish marriage for them either. The 1862 birth of son William John should include a date and place of marriage for parents.
Monica
Sorry I'm late with a reply, work has been crazy!
Yes, that's them. Joseph born 1857 is my great, great grandfather. I estimated his father William John's birth year from his death certificate (he died aged 55 in 1888 and I have the death certificate). But, as already pointed out, the information is only as good as the person handing it over and maybe he wasn’t 55 years old?
William John was married to Elizabeth Main/Mair and I have her death certificate for 1894.
Joseph Pentland born 1857, died 1901 married Christina Gillespie 1884 (I have the marriage certificate that give the parent’s names as William Pentland and Elizabeth Mains). I also have Joseph’s brother’s birth certificate (born 1862), but not Joseph’s (it doesn’t help that his brother was also called William John!)
I also have a 1891 census in which Joseph aged 33, Christina aged 31, William aged 6 (my great grandfather), Margaret aged 4, James aged 2 appear.
I found the Pentlands to be more elusive than other sides of my family - there never seem to be many marriage certificates or appearances in the census. My dad wonders if they didn't just adopt the name at some point!
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. Pentland. —ln loving memory of my dear husband, Joseph Pentland, who died at 1 Duke Street, 10th July, 1901, aged 44 years
in Motherwell Times.
Oh wow, yes that's my great, great grandfather. Thank you :) I will have to look through the newspaper archives more!
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You said:
. I also have Joseph’s brother’s birth certificate (born 1862)
which should, as MonicaL has already mentioned, note where and when his parents married (potentially helpful info for you to share with us, especially when they are elusive in census).
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You said:
. I also have Joseph’s brother’s birth certificate (born 1862)
which should, as MonicaL has already mentioned, note where and when his parents married (potentially helpful info for you to share with us, especially when they are elusive in census).
Yes, thank you. It looks like August 1855 but I can't make out the town.
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This is William Pentland's death notice 1888 with his parents listed as Ralph Pentland and Mary Pentland (McGowan)
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Looks to me like ARMAGH, IRELAND
Bev
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Entry here for 1891, following death of husband in 1888 possibly, for Elizabeth and son William:
Eliz Pentland 50 b. Ireland
William Pentland 28 Iron Work Labourer b. Old Monkland
Address: 6 Globe Buildings, Dalziel
Death of other son Joseph, aged 44, in 1901 in Dalziel?
Monica
Sorry, I missed this post. Yes, I think that is them! Joseph was with his wife Christina and family in Bridge Street, Motherwell while his mother and brother were in Globe Buildings.
Elizabeth died at Globe Building in 1894 and William died five years after this census. So Elizabeth is Irish then! Thank you, I can start to look in that direction :) I haven't done any research in Ireland yet but I know the records were destroyed in some places.
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Looks to me like ARMAGH, IRELAND
Bev
I think the word before Armagh is simply County.
Monica
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Thank you both!
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... So Elizabeth is Irish then! Thank you, I can start to look in that direction :)
At this stage, we don't have William Snr on any census. Nothing to say so far that he was born in Scotland or Ireland. You have confirmation now of Elizabeth's birth being Irish from the 1891 census. You also have details of their marriage in Armagh in 1855.
Where do you have William Snr as Willam John like his son born in Bothwell?
Monica
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Who were Elizabeth's parents from her death cert?
Monica
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John Main (or Mains) and Elizabeth dunlop
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... So Elizabeth is Irish then! Thank you, I can start to look in that direction :)
At this stage, we don't have William Snr on any census. Nothing to say so far that he was born in Scotland or Ireland. You have confirmation now of Elizabeth's birth being Irish from the 1891 census. You also have details of their marriage in Armagh in 1855.
Where do you have William Snr as Willam John like his son born in Bothwell?
Monica
Agh that's my fault. I was posting from work and made a mistake. I don't have his birth town, just a guess that he was born in 1833 (due to the age of his death being 55 in 1888)
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I found the Pentlands to be more elusive than other sides of my family - there never seem to be many marriage certificates or appearances in the census. My dad wonders if they didn't just adopt the name at some point!
Your dad may be right!
This is likely the family in 1871 from what we have:
William Templeton 30 Labourer Iron Work b. Ireland
Elizabeth Templeton 40 b. Ireland
Joseph Templeton 14 Catcher At Rolls b. Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
William John Templeton 8 b. Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Templeton 4 b. Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Address: Depot Canal Bank Reid Land No 8, Coatbridge
Monica
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Daughter Elizabeth with her surname a little garbled..... ::)
Elizabeth Pantsland
Birth Date 28 Jul 1866
Birthplace OLD MONKLAND,LANARK,SCOTLAND
William Pantsland and Elizabeth Mains
Maybe her birth cert would have more details re parents' marriage?
Monica
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haha wouldn't surprise me! He has often said that the name was 'borrowed' - it was probably quite easy to do then, especially with the travel. I fully expected there to be an Irish connection too as I knew that many from the north of Ireland moved to that area of Scotland for work (I read that up to 75% in Coatbridge area were from Ireland at the beginning of the rise of the steel industry)
You've given me a great help here as it's good to bounce ideas off other people! I shall investigate further.
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Daughter Elizabeth with her surname a little garbled..... ::)
Elizabeth Pantsland
Birth Date 28 Jul 1866
Birthplace OLD MONKLAND,LANARK,SCOTLAND
William Pantsland and Elizabeth Mains
Maybe her birth cert would have more details re parents' marriage?
Monica
Yes, I'll try and get the sisters birth certificate next :)
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Looks to me like ARMAGH, IRELAND
Bev
I think the word before Armagh is simply County.
Monica
Agreed :)
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With eldest Joseph in 1861:
Wm Pentleton 30 Fireman b. Ireland
Elizabeth Pentleton 30 b. Ireland
Joseph Pentleton 11 b. Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Address: 5 Post Office Row, Old Monkland Eastern District
Just need 1881 don't we for you to have the main set of census entries for them...
Monica
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One to ponder on as possible connected family to William. From 1881:
Mary Ann Wilson Or Templeton 42 b. Ireland
Ralph Templeton 16 Roll Catcher In Ironwork b. Coatbridge (this is the same occupation as Joseph in the 1871 census)
Address: Steels St, Coatbridge
Ralph's birth:
Ralph Templeton
Birth Date 08 Apr 1865
Birthplace OLD MONKLAND,LANARK
Thomas Templeton and Mary Ann Wilson
There is a death of a Thomas Templeton in TEMPLETON aged 46 in 1871 in Old Monkland. He may have died before the census date as Maryann and Ralph show living by themselves in Coatbridge with some boarders in 1871.
Monica
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For info and further checking, another Rootschatter with the Pentland/Pentleton (and variations), surname in County Armagh:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332975.0
Also see first two threads at:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mvw/
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Thank you!
I've been having a good look around the forum, it's very interesting and people are so helpful!