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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Gordon Hughes on Saturday 13 October 18 10:43 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm trying to trace the ancestry of Catherine Williams from the following marriage:
Marriage: 6 Aug 1883 St Michael in the Hamlet, Aigburth, Lancashire, England
Thomas Roberts - 21, Milk Dealer, Bachelor, Greaves St
Catherine Williams - 21, Spinster, Bran St
Groom's Father: Thomas Roberts, Baker
Bride's Father: William Williams, Master Mariner
Witness: George Runacus; Annie Williams
I know they had a son Thomas Roberts born on the 30th September 1885, at which time they were living at Greaves Street but I can find no apparent census record for Catherine prior to their marriage in 1883, or for the family after their marriage, so I have no way of knowing whether she was born in Liverpool or possibly North Wales.
I have been able to trace Thomas Roberts snr. back in time (the witness George Runacus was his brother-in-law) but can''t get a fix on Catherine at all. The witness Annie Williams may be her sister or her mother but I've now way of figuring it out. I've pretty much exhausted all the usual resources so if anyone on this forum has some ideas they would be gratefully received.
Many thanks, Gordon.
p.s. I have also posted this on lswlfhs.org.uk
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Maybe she came over from Ireland and went back there after the marriage :-\
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Difficult with such common names and bit convoluted but this family has a father in law William Williams living with them. All born Liverpool.
1891 Toxteth Liverpool
Thomas Roberts 30 head
Catherine 28 wife
Edith A 5 daughter
Thomas H 7 months son
William Williams 56 father in law
Elizabeth A Milne 17 sister in law
Probably not right but worth checking out.
Have you checked the addresses from the marriage in 1881/1891 for any sightings?
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I don't think so.
Let me give a bit more context: Through DNA matching it seems I am related to a descendant of Thomas Roberts, the son of Thomas and Catherine. The connection probably lies through Catherine to my Welsh ancestors in North Wales, a lot of whom were Williams from the Llanaber/Barmouth area. They were mainly farmers but it's possible that there were some mariners in the family, and possibly even from the Bangor and Anglesey region.
Thomas Roberts snr. parents were Thomas Roberts b 1828 in Malpas Cheshire to be found at Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, with his wife Elizabeth, b 1829, from Seacombe (1881 census).
Thanks, Gordon.
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Catherine Williams - 21, Spinster, Bran St
Do we know where Bran St is or was - anywhere near Greaves St?
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On that 1891 Toxteth census page William "Williams" is a general labourer. The surname has been crossed out and "Miller" written above it.
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Two possible baptisms below: Father a Mariner
Abode not cleat Ahol? St.
Catherine Mary Williams 12 Mar 1865 Liverpool William Williams,Alice Williams
Possible Hospital Patient 1871 & Servant 1881 both in Liverpool.
Abode Townsend St, North
Catharine Ellen Williams 6 Nov 1859 Liverpool William Williams,Hannah Williams
I think it is likely that Catherine Ellen is in Bangor, Caernarvonshire Wales in 1861 & 1871
On both occasions with a Mary Jones
1861 = Catherine E Williams abt 1858 Liverpool Nursing
1871 = Catherine Ellin Williams abt 1858 Liverpool Niece Bangor, Caernarvonshire
Colin
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Yes, I saw the 1891 census entry, but that William Williams is a general labourer not a Master Mariner.
As for the address, I'm always a bit wary about setting too much store by them. People moved house frequently just to save a few pennies on rent. The absence of a house number in marriage records can be an issue, because you would get people of the same nationality or occupation congregating in the same street, which means you could get several William Williams and Catherine Williams living in the same street which could be full of Welsh, Mariners, or Welsh Mariners !
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Do we know where Bran St is or was - anywhere near Greaves St?
On this map Greaves Street is just to the east of Toxteth baths and Bran Street is a short distance to the south, the other side of Mill Street: http://www.liverpool-city-group.com/street-guide-1901/g4.htm
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Thanks Colin,
Yes I had seen those, but given that Catherine was 21 at the time of her marriage in 1883, then Catherine Mary seems a bit too young, and Catherine Ellen seems a bit too old. Mind you, I've seen some fibs told on marriage records, particularly when they're a bit young at the time.
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Where was Thomas Senior born?
Is this Jnr’s birth?
ROBERTS, THOMAS mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 203
Jamjar
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Thomas snr was born in Liverpool. In the 1881 census he can be found staying with George and Ann Runacus at 5 Ballington Street. At that time he appears to be a brick maker.
George and Ann (Roberts) married in 1876. Ann's father was Thomas Roberts, a baker, so I'm assuming that Ann and Thomas senior were siblings.
Yes, I believe you're right about Thomas Roberts born in 1885. I have a copy of his birth certificate which tallies with the information on his death certificate (he died in Cornwall).
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The age on the marriage cert might just be to note she was of age maybe.
Catherine Ellen had a brother noted below.
William Humphrey Williams born Liverpool 20 Feb 1862
1871 – Denio, Pwllheli, Caernarvonshire
Hannah Williams 32 Mariners wife, born Bangor
William H Williams 9 Son born Liverpool
John M Williams 7 Son born Pwllheli
Thomas Williams 3 ditto
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Ah, now that's an interesting point. I was taking the age 21 as literal but they could have just put that instead of 'of full age', which would have been 21, right ? I must admit I've not seen that before. I've seen the more common form 'of full age'. That being the case, it throws a completely different complexion on the situation and could explain why all my searches were fruitless.
I really hadn't seen that one before. You think you've seen it all before then something else comes along.... :)
I'll follow that line of thought in my renewed searches.
Gordon.
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The age on the marriage cert might just be to note she was of age maybe.
I'm afraid that theory doesn't hold water. The other couple on that register page have ages 36 and 31. On the next page the ages are 31, 28, 21 and 18.
I see there was another Thomas Roberts/Catherine Williams marriage, at St James's Toxteth in 1881.
What is the father's occupation on the 1885 birth certificate?
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Father's occupation at the time of Thomas' birth was milk dealer, as per the marriage certificate. Address was 5 Greaves Street.
Thanks, Gordon.
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1881 Bangor, Caernarvonshire
Catherine Ellen Williams. Niece, now 22, is still with Mary Jones now age 75, Mary has been noted as unmarried on all returns. Sadly it looks like Mary died and left the house to Catherine Ellen, who is still there in 1891 so not the one to marry Thomas.
Sorry Gordon but it might be best to look at the other Catherine, who might have lied about her age?
Colin
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The other Catherine for info.
Abode not clear probably Athol St. Father a Mariner
Catherine Mary Williams 12 Mar 1865 Liverpool William Williams, Alice Williams
Possible Hospital Patient 1871 & Servant 1881 both in Liverpool.
William Williams, Mariner, father William a Labourer deceased, married Alice Valentine, father John a Falconer. 20 Jul 1859, Everton, St Augustine Both of full age & single. Witnesses William Atherton & Alice Roberts.
Others baptisms Liverpool William & Alice father a mariner
Hannah Maria Williams 20 Aug 1862 abode Athol St.
Robert Williams15 Mar 1868 abode Bisham St?
Family with Thomas Ashton & his family 1871 St Mary, Liverpool
William Williams 47 Boarder, mariner born Denbighshire
Alice Williams 42 Wife born Manchester
John Williams 10 Son born Liverpool
Ann M Williams 9 Ditto (could this be Annie)?
Robert Williams 3 ditto
So maybe Catherine in Hospital above?
No further census for family maybe for children but in conclusive.
Possible deaths for William 1871 – 1881 none for Alice but there are possible remarriages in period.
Possible birth for Alice Valentine Baptism13 Jul 1828 Horwich, Lancashire, however father John noted as printer?
Colin
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Thanks Colin,
Yes, that's a possibility. I'll look into that further. You don't see many mariners from Denbigh !
North Wales is a challenge when researching. Because of the many boundary changes locations flip-flopped between Denbigh and Merioneth so it's alway useful to check both counties records.
Gordon.
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Just adding to ColC's research there is this in the 1891 census:
38 Sandheys Street, Kirkdale:
William Williams 69 mariner born Denbigh
Alice Williams 58 wife born Manchester
Robert Williams 24 son marine fireman, Liverpool
+ 3 boarders
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Duplicate thread here:-
https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16196
Blue
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Hello Gordon,
I'm not sure if I've contacted you previously.
The Thomas Roberts born in Greaves St in Sept 1885 was my maternal grandfather.
I found out that he had an older brother George who also joined the navy.
I still cannot locate the family in 1891 or 1901 census.
I would be happy to learn of any other info you may have.
Best wishes Maggie