RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Chattykathy on Thursday 11 August 05 03:39 BST (UK)
-
Hi!
Looking for John K. Lucy, Stockport, Cheshire
John K. Lucy married Maria M. King 1855 Everton, St. Chrysostom, Liverpool
Maria M. King. b. 1835 Clerkenwell, Middlesex
Father: Rueben King
Mother: Eliza Matilda Tempest King
John and Maria Lucy have 6 children
Jessie (dau) 1856 Stockport, Cheshire (1861 says b.Arkansas, US!) “Jessie Eliza Lucy”
Ada 1857 Stockport
Lilly 1860 Liverpool
Florence 1862 Stockport “Florence King Lucy”
Margaret 1864 Stockport “Margaret Esther Lucy”
Edwin 1866 Liverpool “Edwin Sparks Lucy
John Lucy is NEVER found in the same household with wife Maria and the children.
1851 Maria servant to Samuel Carrington, Heathfield Cale Green, St. Thomas, Stockport
1861 Maria Married living with first 3 of the children with parents Rueben/Eliza in Stockport
1871 Maria Widow with 6 children, still with parents on Adswood? Lane, Stockport
1881 Maria, Widow, with 5 of the children STILL w/ parents at Heathland Terrace, Stockport (Oldest dau Jessie, has left the nest)
Would seem John Lucy died between 1865-1871 . updated info
But where is he and what is his profession? By evidence of the children’s births, he has been making regular appearances!
Thanks for any help/inspiration!
kathy
p.s. Have checked US census and immigration -- not finding either John or Maria traveling 1855-1856 together/separately.
If Maria did go and quickly returned, John obviously returned also.
-
There are quite a few John Lucy's on the 1861 census. What was his fathers name if you have the marriage certificate?
-
Nessie, I've given you all I have. If I had his father's name I would have given it in that voluminous posting! ;D
Sorry! But thanks anyway for your trouble and effort.
Regards,
Kathy
-
Kathy,
It sounds very much like John could have been a sailor, being born in Liverpool and some of his children being born there.
He may well have been at sea on census night.
Just a thought.
Regards
Su
-
Hi Su -- thanks for that and it is an obvious possibility.
However from his marriage in 1855, children followed in rapid succession so he was obviously making some fairly regular appearances around the dinner table!
As his Father and Brother-in-Laws were either Reporters or involved in the print trade -- another possibility.
Or some other trade/commerce/travel related profession. Espionage??
Interesting that he seemingly has missed EVERY census nite ever!
kathy
-
Hi
1871 Maria is shown as Widow, so it looks like he died before then
ec
-
ec, thank you!
That's helps narrow things a bit!
kathy
-
Hi
I followed up on Jessie and she seems to say in 1881 that she was born N America (she was married by then). She appears to have died soon after. I know its not much help but it does seem to indicate that the original b. Arkansas (which by the way was on the 1871 census, not the 1861), is probably correct.
Seems like they married in Liverpool then jumped on a ship - few weeks of boredum (no TV in those days!), landed in America, had baby Jessie, decided they didn't like it, back on ship, more home made entertainment, jumped off ship, just in time to produce Ada..
ec
-
Hi ec!
Also, other than a failed emigration attempt, I'm thinking it is possible that John Lucy was an American (or was born in America) or travelled for his profession (whatever it was?).
Found 1881 for Jessie Eliza Lucy now married:
Samuel M. Marples 21 b. Derby Journeyman Joiner
Jessie E. Marples 25 b. North America
at 3 Billinge St. Stockport, Cheshire
Thanks!
kathy
Thanks again --- every bit is a help!
kathy
-
Hi
She married Samuel Marples, but she seemed to have died shortly after (dec 1881, I think from memory)
ec
-
ec!
I never heard of that as a cause of death..... "from memory" ::)
Annie
-
Before everybody starts yelling at me - I'm sorry! -
I couldn't help myself :P
Annie
-
Annie
I think my brain will seize up at some point so 'watch this space'
Back to the LUCYS
something of interest I have uncovered (I Think)
remember Florence born 1862 (Florence King Lucy)
she appears to have married Alfred Spedding
Marriages Jun 1883
LUCY Florence King Chorlton 8c 1031
Spedding Alfred Chorlton 8c
1891 census
Spedding, Fred 1864 Heaton Norris, Lancashire, Head General dealer Furniture etc
Spedding, Florence K 1863 Stockport, Cheshire, Wife
Spedding, Florence M 1886 Heaton Norris, Lancashire, Daughter
Spedding, Clifford 1888 Mass, United States America (British Subject) Son
Spedding, James Wm 1890 Stockport, Cheshire, Son
RG12/2801 f188 p4
RD Stockport
Sub RD Stockport First
Perhaps the family tradition was a long sea trip for no reason!
ec
-
ec! That is Great!!
Perhaps Furniture Dealing (Exporting, most likely) was the family business!!
Here's what I have for 2 of the other children:
LUCY Margaret Ester [sic Esther?] m. Mar Qtr 1886 Stockport to either:
John Thomas HADFIELD
Joseph HULME
LUCY, Edwin Sparks m. Dec Qtr 1889 in Stockport to either:
Rebecca HEAPS
Edwina Maud SIMPSON
I haven't found anything for Ada or Lilly
;D ;D ;D
kathy
-
Unfortunately both Maria and John Lucy and Florence and Fred Spedding are missing being in the US in a census year -- or having a child there in a census year!
I've looked in Arkansas for "Lucy" -- didn't find anything.
Will check Massachusetts for "Lucy" and "Spedding" to see if any other extended family there.
But they could have either been traveling for business or leisure......
No exploding head yet...or is it a delayed response??
And as you remembered correctly, Jessie Marples d. Dec 1881 at age 25 in Stockport.
Did not find a death for John Lucy between 1865-1871. Maybe he died in US? or elsewhere? OR it is a garbled, mistranscribed entry???
k
-
Edwin married Edwina - I found that earlier - do you want the 1891 census info?
(worse than sporting matching tracksuits I think!)
ec
-
You don't know the half of it!! Edwin is a family name --- they appear 2 or 3 times in every generation!
If it's not too much trouble for the 1891 that would be great!
Never know what small clue that might have?
BIG THANKS!
k
-
Ada didn't marry (before 1901) she is with her mother 1891 who has remarried a Joseph Salmon
Marriages Mar 1884
Lucy Maria Martha Stockport 8a 15
SALMON Joseph Stockport 8a 15
1891
Joseph SALMON 1837 Stockport, Cheshire, Head Joiner
Maria SALMON 1839 London, Wife
Ada SALMON 1861 Cheshire, Daughter
RG12/2802 f 96 p17
RD Stockport
SubRD Stockport First
12 Buckingham? St
1891
Alice Simpson Head 65 wid b. Hindley Lancashire
Edwin Lucy son in law25 b. Liverpool Picture frame maker
Edwina Lucy dau 27 b Ashton under Lyme
Charles Lucy 3m Grandson b. Stockport
RG12/2801 f 96 p 43
RD Stockport
Sub Stockport First
83 Castle Street
1901
Ada Maria Lucy 1857 Single Stockport, Cheshire, Head Hat Trimmer
Maria Salmon 1837 Widow Clerkenwell, London, Cheadle
RG13/3300 f 153 p 8
RD Stockport
SubRD Cheadle
Burton Street
I'll look for the others in a minute
ec
-
I found that Solomon marriage previously --- about time Maria finally got out from under her parents roof, dontcha think!
Of interest in Massachusetts in 1900
All "Spedding"
Stephen Widow 42 b. Dec. 1857 in Eng Wool Sorter in Mill Immig. year: 1887
Frederick W. son 21 b. May 1879 Immig 1887
Beatrice M. dau b. Sep 1886 Immi. 1887
Harriett "Mother" 50 b. Mar 1850 Immi. 1889 But mother to who??
Immigration year corresponds to Clifford Spedding's birth in 1888 in Mass. hmmmmmm
Hopefully above group will show in UK in 1881.
Great work, ec -- are your eyes crossed yet?!
k
-
1891
42 Aberdeen Crescent, Cheadle
HADFIELD
Thomas 1834 Cheadle, Cheshire, Head Hat & Cap Buyer
John T 1864 Cheadle, Cheshire, Son
Margaret E 1864 Stockport, Cheshire, Daughter in law
RG12/2800 f 46 p14
RD Stockport
Sub RD Stockport First
I haven't been able to find Edwin/Edwina 1901 (probably on a sea trip)
Cant find Margaret and John Hadfield at the moment either (Probably on a sea trip)
1901
Florence K Spedding 1865 Stockport, Cheshire, Head
Florence M Spedding 1886 Stockport, Cheshire, England Daughter
Clifford Spedding 1888 United States Son
James W Spedding 1890 Stockport, Cheshire, England Son
RG13/3650 f24 p13
RD Bury
Sub-RD Radcliffe
55 Schoolside Road
Florence K is allegedly married but no sign of Fred - guess where he is most likely to be/!
ec
-
Hi
was just about to stop - time to crack open a bottle of wine here and start dinner
but I found Fred - doing a spot in HM Prison
RG13/3771
RD Prestwich
SubRD Cheetham
ED His Majestys Prison
Folio 94
Page 12
Fred Spedding 1864 Heaton Norris, Joiner, Lancashire, Prisoner
Looks like you need a lookup of the quarter sessions now! ;D
Perhaps thats why they kept disappearing....
ec
-
OOOOHHHHH -- finally found a felon!! How interesting!?
Wonder what he did to enjoy HM's hospitality?!
ec, thanks so much for your brilliant work!!
Enjoy your dinner and more importantly that bottle of wine!
Now to find out what all those sea trips were all about!
k
-
my eyes are crossed -
Annie if you are still there, the first 'from memory' could be occurring!
ec
-
Oh Honey!!
You'd better go lay down!!
Don't want you falling down from memory here!!
Annie :P
-
I'm sure she is lurking/skulking? with a quip to follow ::) ::)
-
OK
Memory erased (its amazing what a couple of glasses of wine can do!)
Chatty - I want to know what he did - when you find out and I want to know what all those sea voyages were about - surely more than a replacement for TV
ec
-
ec, glad that wine did the trick! Could use a glass or two myself!
Spedding family providing no clues --- tied the group found in US in 1900 back to UK 1881 -- they are wool sorters in both places. Also, found a few other Speddings in Mass. In 1900 but all textile workers or some sort so not seeing a connection to Exporting or furniture sales, or frequent sea voyages etc. Also our felonious character Fred has a different birthplace than that group -- so maybe no connection of any kind anyway
I have a wild theory on John Lucy --- Maria's father was a Reporter, Stationer, Printer and her brother Edwin was also a Printer's apprentice at 15 and in 1861 a Reporter/printer --- thinking John Lucy may have been involved with something of that nature so travelling extensively perhaps to US.
(Haven’t found son/bro Edwin King after 1861 either!)
Tricky part is trying to find where John Lucy died -- if in UK or US or elsewhere?? Have NO details on him as to when born, where born --- nothing. Somebody on the board said they found several possibles for him in 1861 but apparently didn't want to do the look ups --- so don’t know if he was found living a part from Maria, kids, King family or what?! Several John Lucy’s died in the likely time frame but without a probable age for him -- no way to rule in or out!
Sooooooo he will continue to be an international man of mystery and intrigue for a while longer!
Thanks for all your help today. Brilliant job in filling in a whole family limb!
ciao
kathy
-
Wasn't Irish was he by any chance ??
Could have been in jail because of the Cause!!!
Not on the census because he was illegal!!:P
Annie ::)
-
Annie -- until we find him or find something on him, absolutely no way to know anything at all! Therein lies the rub....
:-\
k
-
Name John K Lucy
Age 68
birth year abt 1862
Birthplace Ireland
Relation Inmate
Race White
Home in 1930 Long Island, Suffolk, Massachusetts
I have more information but what do you think for starters?
Annie ::)
-
You might want to check Maria's birthdate and the dates as to when his children were born and then see what you think as far as a possibility??
-
Ok - so maybe it was Florence incognito.... :P :P
I'd better go ride my bike - before Kathy gets mad at me!!
Annie :P
-
Fred .... icognito......he's the one doing time in 1901 at the behest of HM's government....this Lucy guy seems to be serving Uncle Sam!
-
I found this on another thread -
www.stockport.gov.uk
Click on to Council - then Genealogical database - In this section type in the name
and you may find the families there - Should they be there then e-mail the Archives and see if they can find anything for you.
Annie
-
Heres a list of Lucy's on the web!!
http://www.ozlists.com/allluceys/igiintro.html
Annie ::)
-
Hi Chatty
John K LUCY
The K is KEMP, right?
Don't know if you have these - they are the only other 'Kemp Lucy's' I can find.
Lucy, Agnes Kemp 1869 June Marriages West Derby Lancashire
LUCY, George Kemp 1845 September Deaths West Derby Lancashire
right sort of area/timeframe.....
ec
-
ec, I don't know if "K" is for "Kemp". Have never seen Kemp used in any of the children's second names so no way for me to know.
No Agnes nor George among the names known.
Haven't encountered any Derby connections yet.
Maybe Annie will have some thoughts ........
k
-
Hi
WEll now is the point for me to ask the stupid question - where did you get the marriage info (1855) from. Obviously not where I got it from
Marriages Mar 1855
LUCY John Kemp W Derby 8b 431
W(est Derby) doesn't appear to have any relevance to 'Derby', but does cover Everton where you said they married
West Derby
Created 1st July 1837.
Sub-districts : Bootle; Crosby; Everton; Fazakerley; Kirkdale; Litherland; North Everton; South Everton; Toxteth Park; Walton; Wavertree; West Derby; West Derby East; West Derby West.
GRO volumes : XX (1837-51); 8b (1852-1930).
Aintree, Allerton (1837-1924), Bootle cum Linacre, Childwall (1837-1924), Croxteth Park, Everton (1837-1924), Fazakerley (1837-1924), Ford, Garston (1837-1924), Great Crosby, Ince Blundell, Kirkby, Kirkdale (1837-1924), Litherland, Little Crosby, Lunt, Netherton, Orrell, Seaforth, Sefton, Thornton, Toxteth Park (1837-80), Walton on the Hill (1837-1924), Waterloo, Wavertree (1837-1924), West Derby (1837-1924), West Derby Rural.
There is also an entry
Marriages Mar 1855
KING Maria Martha W. Derby 8b 451
Her second name was Martha - I saw that somewhere else.
If you check the image the ref for Maria should actually be
8b 431
bingo - you have your marriage.
and you can find out John Lucys fathers name, occupations and addresses for both.
ec
P.S some of the children marriages I looked up yesterday were also in West Derby I think (from Memory!)
ec
-
ec,
Lanchashire BMD on line
1855 Maria M. King married John K. Lucy
in Everton, St. Chrysostom, Liverpool, on Aubrey Street.
I googled St. Chrysostom and it was a new CofE only opened in 1852 or1853.
Perhaps it is a totally wrong record --- L'pool seemed to make sense.... but maybe it is Derby. Really don't know.
I've followed totally wrong tracks before on my own family with a lot more information at hand!
From record of her 2nd marriage to Mr. Salmon, Maria's middle name is Martha.
I think all the marriages that I had previously which you matched up yesterday with census listing were all Stockport, Cheshire.....
However Samuel Marples, husband of dau Jessie Eliza was b. in Derby.
Carol pm'd 1861 John Lucy's -- 38 of them several of the them located in Derby. I'll sort those out and post them shortly.
It's up to Liverpool Annie to pursue certificates if she wishes -- this is her family I've been researching.
Thanks!
kathy
-
Hi
Everton is in the registration district West Derby,
which is no where near Derby in Derbyshire - why the district is called West Derby I have no idea, but its in Liverpool area
ec
-
OK - I've checked on Streetmap and there is a place between Liverpool and Huyton called West Derby, which is obviously where the registration district name comes from.
Its miles from Derby in Derbyshire
ec
-
SORRY! I'm an idiot American! How's your US place name/geography associations, by the way?? LOL ;D
Bottom line is the marriage seemed to have happened in L'pool Lancashire but two differing records of the marriage on hand??
So are we right back where we started????
-
No need to apologise!
No - I think they are the same record.
The Lancashire BMD has John K Lucy marrying Maria M King
FREEBMD has John Kemp Lucy marrying Maria Martha King
I guess that the Lancashire BMD transcribers ar just using initials for middle names instead of the full names which are actually on the registers.
My verdict - one and the same marriage entry for the the same couple, transcribed differently, occurred St Chrysostom Church, Everton in the Registration district West Derby.
A similar instance occurs on Maria's remarriage to Joseph SALMON. On FreeBMD she is Maria Martha - on CheshireBMD she is Maria M only (but you can also see she was previously KING on that index - swings and roundabouts)
ec
-
ec, from "the list" can we see these 2 in 1861/1871 and see if anything of interest?
John Lucy b.1809 Liverpool Lodger Birkenhead Cheshire
(would have been 45 when he married and 60ish when he died)
John Lucy b. 1833 Thaxted, Essex Boarder Loughton Essex
(common age as Maria)
k
-
Hi
1861
John Lucy b. 1809 is a widower, boot keeper?, with a 22 year old daughter called Ada (would have been a bit odd to have two daughters called Ada, one living as a boarder with him and one at home with his wife I think)
Cany find him 1871 - this is possibly his death
Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1861
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
LUCY John 52 Birkenhead Wirral BIR/29/66
John Lucy b 1833 - ag lab on a farm. Cant find him 1871
ec
-
Oh well...... our guy could be a Head (taking care of parents/family) or a son, etc. on census nite......or he could have been travelling.....
I think we should just give it up for now.....too exhausting...maybe it will come back to us after it rests for a while.
Working on the "Kemp" name to see if any leads there but nothing yet.
Thanks for all your work, ec! Enjoy your weekend!
k
-
Never one to give up easily ;D
Had a better look 1901 and found Margaret Esther
Thomas Hadfield 1834 Stockport, Cheshire, Head Mens hat and cap buyer
John T Hadfield 1864 Stockport, Cheshire, Son Cheshire Accountants clerk
Margaret E Hadfield 1865 Liverpool, Lancashire, Daughter-in-law
Ethel M Hadfield 1894 Stockport, Cheshire, Granddaughter
Sophia White 1851 Southampton, Hampshire, England Servant
RG13/3293 f 84 p9
RD Stockport
SubRD Stockport First
Edwin Sparks LUCY appears to pop up in 1910 US census, widowed. Its very hard to read but I think it says Foreman (something) picture framer. (something like his occupation 1891) One of the questions is about his father - at this point he seems to believe his father (John LUCY), was English. Year of entry to US is difficult - could be 1885 or 1895. It looks more like 1885, but his child Charles was born Stockport 1891, so unless he was also an international jet setter.....
Edwin S Lucy
Age in 1910, 43
Est Birth 1867
Home in 1910 4-Wd Springfield, Hampden, Massachusetts
Race, White
Series T624
Roll 592
Part 1
Page 165A
Still in US 1920
Edwin S Lucy
Age 53
Est birth 1867
Birthplace England
Race White
Home in 1920 New Bedford, Bristol, Massachusetts
Roll T625_686
Page 20A
ED 138
Image 333
still widowed. Year of immigration 1885 (so he was an international jet setter). Still thinks his father was English. Cant read occupation.
He also appears in the New Bedford, Massachusetts Directories, 1887 and 1889-90 as a 'frame maker'
ec
-
Hi ec! Thanks for the Margaret Hadfield info.
I found that Edwin Lucy in US in 1880 -- 1880 doesn't give a whole lot of info -- but was interested in that wife was "Lizzie", a dau Lillie and another dau "Lizzie". He was a picture framer in New Bedford, Bristol, MA. Think there was also a boarder. Dates were off on Edwin, wife, and Lillie by several years --- but that is not uncommon.
I didn't go further with him 'cause the daus indicated born in Mass. and Wife b. in Ireland! Lizzie/Eliza Coller b. in Stockport, England, I thought!
No "Sparks" name or middle initial included in 1880 and immigration info isn't requested in 1880.
But I'll go have another look at him in 1900, etc. Thanks! Good find!
k
-
Okay -- took me a while to straighten that out.....
The Edwin S. Lucy you have above I found yesterday when looking for the Spedding group of (wool sorters) and wondered if "Picture Framer" could be stretched to "Furniture Dealer"......however at that moment, did not have the UK census info noting his profession as a "picture framer" (or it hadn't computed in my foggy brain yet) ----- so think that has to be BINGO! He didn't pop out in 1900 US but will check again -- would be nice to see wife, children with him then. Bummer that there is no US 1890!
The Edwin I was think of above is in 1880 PHILADELPHIA and is KING --
Edwin King b. 1833 in Eng F/M: Eng Lamp Maker
wife Lizzie b. 1834 b. in Ire F/M: Ire
dau Lillie b. 1856 PA School Teacher
dau Lizzie b. 1858 PA Store Clerk
Annie Baker Boarder b. 1817 PA F/M: PA
Maria's brother Edwin King b. 1838 but wife Eliza b. 1840 in Stockport and dau Lilly Eliza b. 1861 in Stockport.
However, Maria has a cousin Edwin as well who is at large!
k
-
ec, Edwin must be a confused widower about when he immigrated....
Arrival August 9, 1891 Boston
Ship" "Cephalonia"
Edwin Lucy 26 Gilder Last Residence/Birthplace: England
Edwina Lucy 24
Charles Lucy Infant
Can't find him still in 1900.
He's a Lodger in a boarding house in both the 1910 and 1920 census.
Profession in 1920 I think is "Packer at a Quilt Factory".
Will look for son Charles and Edwin in 1930!
-
Hi
Perhaps he went to US in 1885, then came back, got married, had Charles and returned to US again?
Charles was born beginning 1891 (3 mos on 1891 census).
Good find - where did you get the immigration details from?
ec