RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: johnxyz on Sunday 16 September 18 16:03 BST (UK)
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I'd like to understand how the Copleys of Bredon, Worcestershire fit into the wider family which is predominantly Yorkshire and Surrey. Can anyone help by casting light on the armorials on this plaque of 1593 in Bredon Church. The Cross Moline is Copley, it's the others I would like pointers for.
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Did you intend to spell the county name as Worcestershire in the thread title or was it a deliberate mistake?
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"Sable three bars argent" is the arms of Haughton of Haughton, Cheshire.
(As seen in the 3rd quarter.)
Or a fess embattled sable is the arms of Abberbury, Oxfordshire and Suffolk and Adderbury, Sussex
(As seen in the 2nd quarter)
Both taken from Burkes General Armory.
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Taking the coat of arms on the left (as we look), the right-hand side is "party per chevron argent and sable, in chief 2 cocks" (or game-cocks, moor cocks or some such! ;D).
But I'm not finding anything to match?
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Hi,
It doesn't answer your question (yet) but the arms on the tomb are, in the centre, those of Thomas Copley himself and the ones on the right as you look at it: his, impaled with those of his first wife, who predeceased him (Margaret Newport), and those on the left are his impaled with those of his second wife, Eleanor Middlemore.
The central arms (Thomas') which are quartered are puzzling because the 2nd quarter appears to be for Abberbury (Suffolk) but I can't find any reference to that in the Copley history. The 3rd quarter is possibly Eaton of Worcestershire, or Haughton of Lancs amongst other places. But nothing to link them to Yorkshire or Surrey??
Although there appear to have bene several genealogies drawn up for the Copley's they don't seem to reflect those arms ... perhaps they were not "officially" inherited in the conventional way?
Liz
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KGarrad - I hadn't seen your reply ... yes I agree - moorcocks the arms of Middlemore I think which fits with it being for his second wife who would be put on the left?
Liz
ADDED - maybe a bit of canting going on with the MOORcocks and MiddleMORE? ;D
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Ah! Yes!
Middlemore (Edgbaston, co. Warwick; the heiress of Robert Middlemore, Esq., of Edgbaston, in. 1719, John Gage, Esq., of Firle, co. Sussex).
Per chev. ar. and sa. in chief two moorcocks ppr.
Crest—In grass and flags a moorcock all ppr.
The arms on the right (as we look at it) contain, impaled on the right-hand side:
"gules a canton argent", but it isn't clear what the charge is in the canton?
I think it may be Newport (co. Stafford). Gu. on a canton ar. a fleur-de-lis sa.
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Yes I think it is Newport - she was Thomas' first wife! Margaret Newport, daughter of George.
Gules on a canton Argent a fleur de lis Sable.
Liz
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KGarrad - I hadn't seen your reply ... yes I agree - moorcocks the arms of Middlemore I think which fits with it being for his second wife who would be put on the left?
Liz
ADDED - maybe a bit of canting going on with the MOORcocks and MiddleMORE? ;D
Not sure what the correct protocol would be for displaying the arms of his 2 wives?
The wife's arms are placed on the sinister (right-hand) side, unless she was of much higher rank then her husband, in which case her arms were placed on the dexter (left-hand) side.
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Don't know, but I have seen hatchments where there have been multiple wives and they are shown either side of the husband - but even then there doesn't't seem to be a specific pattern to follow.
Liz
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Not sure what the correct protocol would be for displaying the arms of his 2 wives?
The wife's arms are placed on the sinister (right-hand) side, unless she was of much higher rank then her husband, in which case her arms were placed on the dexter (left-hand) side.
My knowledge of heraldry is limited but should it not be other way round? Sinister = left; dexter = right. (I have difficulty telling right from left in English.)
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My knowledge of heraldry is limited but should it not be other way round? Sinister = left; dexter = right. (I have difficulty telling right from left in English.)
The terms sinister and dexter are defined from the point of view of the imaginary wearer of the shield.
So the wearer's left (sinister) is the right as you look at the arms, and vice versa.
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Thank you all for you contributions, and my apologies for the spelling mistake in the title.
As is noted the arms on either side fit with the known information about his wives.
I have noted KGarrad's suggestions on the main armorial. They don't fit geographically, but that's part of the challenge.
As additional info, VCH Worcestershire says Copley bought Bredon in 1571. I have seen somewhere in a comment relating to the purchase that he was of Bedings in Suffolk. That is repeated in the pedigree in the Visitation of Worcestershire 1569 (Harleian Soc Vol 27) where his father is given as of "Bedings [for Bedingfield] in "Suff."
I do however wonder if Bedings might instead be Woolbeding in Sussex which would possibly fit better geographically. It would not be the first time "Suff" for Sussex became Suffolk. I need to check the original Harleian manuscripts and the Patent Roll ref given by VCH.
Finally I must warn everone that whilst there is much data on early Copley pedigrees, much of it is unsubstantiated rubbish! I've also seen it said, as I dig around on this particular topic, that Thomas Copley went to America with Raleigh and is responsible for introducing the potato to the Vale of Evesham.
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johnxyz - You mentioned that you would like to check the original Harleian manuscripts and the Patent Roll ref given by VCH. Were you able to do that, and if so did you get any additional information? Thank you