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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: CorinStone on Tuesday 28 August 18 23:51 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone. I am trying to find my granddads birth and citizenship record but I am finding it really difficult. He was born in Berlin 12 October 1922 and his name was Michael Kuh (possibly Solomonica but likely his mother's surname Kuh) I am from and live in London. I know he was born in Berlin but have no idea exactly where nor where his records would be kept. He was Jewish so I assume the records where kept separately from those who weren't. He returned to live in Berlin in the 1970s and died and was buried there in 1993 as Michael Stone. Can anyone advise me on who to contact or where I should be looking? Thanks for any help Corin Stone
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Is this Michael by any chance.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=michael+kuh
Regards Sue
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Wow. Yes it must be. They fled to Vienna and then to England. I know his mum went to welwyn garden city so this is him. His mum was from Vienna and his dad from Romania. He was born and brought up in Berlin... I do wonder if he was considered a German or Austrian citizen despite his birth place. This indicates Austria? Though they where hidden there a few years before escaping
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Thank you Sue that's amazing. I will visit the archive. Unfortunately his mums is closed http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11169670
I believe she committed suicide maybe that's why.. Real shame I'd like to see what it says
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That is great. Yes it is a shame his mothers is closed and i would presume that that would be the reason.
Hope there is some more information for you .
Regards Sue
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Thanks again Sue. Interestingly it says from Austria for him. His sisters says born there which she was. Bit ambiguous
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Since you know her presumed cause of death....
You could try an application under FOI (Freedom of Information). There is perhaps a place in the application where you could point this out and they might then let you see the record.
PB
Added: click on the green 'submit FOI request' on the link you gave for her record
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Thank you, I requested it last night. There's a chance they'll release it as I already know. Will see what they say. Cheers
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You're welcome. Hope they will release the record for you.
PB
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I might wait for them to respond before I visit the archive. I see his two sisters there as well. I imagine his Aunt will be there too... Will have to look up her married name. Thanks
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Hello Corin,
Michael's birth would have been recorded at the local registry office like any other birth. There was no separate civil register for the Jews. It may also have been recorded in a Jewish register maintained by the Jewish community of Berlin.
Civil records from that era are held at:
Landesarchiv Berlin
Eichborndamm 115 - 121, D-13403 Berlin
Telefon: ++49 (0)30 90 264 - 0
E-Mail: info@landesarchiv.berlin.de
Because Michael was born less than 110 years ago, you will have to prove that you are a direct relative to be able to obtain his birth cert.
I also found the names and dates of birth of Marianne's siblings, but I believe that you already have those.
As neither of his parents were German citizens and he was illegitimate anyway, he would have been regarded as an Austrian citizen based on the nationality of his mother.
Justin
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Thanks Justin, great help and insight.
Yes I know all about Marianne family. Our family mystery concerned his dad's family but after two years research I finally unravelled that.
So he would most likely be Austrian... Or pretty much definitely?
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When did Micheal Kuh leave Germany?
"The lists of Jews deprived of citizenship lists were compiled and indexed, and, after 1959, they were available for research at the Berlin Document Center. There are also lists of Jews who fled Germany, first to France or Vienna, and then to Spain"
His birth would be registered in Berlin but even if he was considered an Austrian citizen his Jewish blood would have lost him German citizenship. He would have perhaps reclaimed it after WW2?
Wonder if his mother is on this list?
Wonder if there are simmilar lists in Austria to explore?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Citizenship_Project
Maybe you could try to reclaim German citizenship, if they grant it, then someone in your ancestry must have been considered to be a German national.
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He left Germany in 1933/4 for Vienna. Then to England 1938/9.
At the moment I'm assuming he was an Austrian citizen. He did not claim/reclaim German citizenship when he returned to live there. I thought it was safety thing, having his British passport and new surname. Maybe he had no rights to German citizenship
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Hello Corin,
I'm wrong about the location of the birth records for 1922. They will still be held at the registry office (Standesamt) where the birth was registered. If you can establish Alexander's and Marianne's address, it will be easy to determine which Standesamt would have been responsible.
The Landesarchiv in Berlin should be able to help by searching in the Einwohnermeldekartei (Card Index of Residents' Registration). Here is the application form in English:
http://landesarchiv-berlin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vordruck-EMK-Englisch.pdf (http://landesarchiv-berlin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vordruck-EMK-Englisch.pdf)
Alexander was not listed in the Berlin address directories until 1930 (Eichhornstrasse 20, Reinickendorf). Marianne was listed separately at the same address in 1931 and 1932. By 1933, they had moved to Rixdorferstrasse 109 in Mariendorf.
You could always chance it and write to
Standesamt Berlin Reinickendorf
E-Mail: E-Mail Standesamt@Reinickendorf.berlin.de
Michael had no entitlement to German citizenship as his mother was not a German citizen.
Justin
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Whiteout7
If Michael was German I could have claimed citizenship but its looking very unlikely. When I can find his Austrian Citizenship my mother can claim it though I won't be able to.
Justin you're a legend!! Thanks for your help. I just emailed them on the off chance. I will check the address directory fully soon. I did just see Alexander's dad on there from 1883 W (Wilhelm) Solomonica interestingly. Maybe a business address, I know his business took around Romania, Germany and Austria. Cool to see though
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1892 that is
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Ok so was his Berlin birth also registered in Austria by his single Austrian mother/the authorities, the records seem to be kept in Vienna
"Records of citizenship are kept by the competent local authorities:
a) Persons born before 1 July 1966:
*in case of birth in Austria, the local authority of the place of birth
* in case of birth in a foreign country, the City of Vienna"
http://www.austria.org/citizenship/
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Let me say this...Marianne was not single... Michael was not illegitimate. Marianne and Alexander were together as a couple, they just did not marry. I don't like the nuances associated with the terminology offered. Incredibly dated.
I have no idea where anything was registered or recorded hence why I am here
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There are no nuances attached to the terms legitimacy (German: ehelich) or illegitimacy (unehelich). They merely define the legal status of children born in or out of wedlock. Whether we like it or not, it was (and still is) a factor in determining a child's citizenship or nationality. The concept may seem outdated, but we are dealing with events that took place nearly 100 years ago.
Under British law, my own paternal grandfather, the son of a Jewish German man and an English woman, was not legally British until his father became a naturalised British citizen in 1900.
The law in force in 1922 (Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz of 1913) granted German citizenship to the children of a German father and his wife. The wife's citizenship was irrelevant. Uneheliche Kinder (illegitimate children) acquired the citizenship of the mother. This situation remained unchanged until the 1960s.
It would be very interesting to know why they did not marry, to understand the societies of Vienna and Berlin in the wake of WWI. Alexander and Marianne clearly resisted any societal pressure to marry. Maybe there were no such pressures.
According to the German version of Wikipedia, Alexander was regarded as stateless following the outbreak of WWI, and was actually interned from 1916 until the end of the war. The article goes on to say that his statelessness meant that he was unable to obtain the necessary papers to emigrate in 1938 following Germany's annexation of Austria.
So under the prevailing German law in 1922, Michael too may have been regarded as stateless if his parents had been married. Maybe this very fact explains why Alexander and Marianne did not marry.
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Their marital status is much more irrelevant than the parent citizenships?
If Marianne Kuh had her son registered in Vienna as born to her, that would be an absolute bonus. Why wouldn't you investigate it? He would possibly be recorded in Germany at the registry office and then again in records in Vienna.
Why was Alexander Solomonica not granted a Visa to England in 1939 with the rest of the family? Possibly because he was considered a Romanian National by birth and Romania was supplying goods to the Axis forces.
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Michael's parents marital status determined which, if any, citizenship he was deemed to have acquired at birth. As subsequent tragic events show, he was lucky to have been deemed to acquire the Austrian citizenship of his mother.
Anti-semitism was enshrined in the Romanian constitution of 1866. A further revision in 1879, made it impossible for Jews to become Romanian citizens unless they converted to Christianity. Tens of thousands of Jews had emigrated before WWI
So Alexander was stateless, i.e. no state recognised him as its citizen. I cannot find any further details about the difficulties he encountered in his attempts to leave Vienna, but in simple terms he did not have and could not obtain a passport. Statelessness is an issue to this day.
I see no reason why Marianne would register Michael's birth in Vienna 11 years later.
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I never considered their lack of marriage for that reason before... Makes a lot of sense and could be a big part of it.
Both their family's were very political and enjoyed fighting societal pressures or expectations. I thought they were just way a head of the times. The statelessness could have been a big part of it.
Alexander refused to fight in the war. He lost his citizenship and was interned. Unfortunately when they were in Vienna Alexander could not get any paper work to leave for England. He was trapped. Michael saw his dad being captured by the Nazis but was lucky to escape. Michael got on to kinder transport though he was to old. He stowed away under a seat.
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I knew there would be a very interesting, if not harrowing, story about his escape.
How did Marianne get out?
I would say that they were very much a product of their time and their Jewish background. They were part of the Viennese intelligentsia.
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Actually I don't know how Marriane got out... Will ask my mum and see if she knows. I believe Sophie escaped through Denmark before England and became a nurse in the English Army.
Very much part of the viennese intelligentsia which as an English guy I find fascinating.Marrianes brother Anton was a political satarist, Sophies dad Otto Gross was a psychoanalyst and friend of Carl Jung. Alexander a writer. Lots of interesting stuff that pulled me into the family research
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Marianne was sponsored by the Van Leers- Jewish diamond merchants- and went to live with them in Welwyn Garden City as their housekeeper. Sophie made the contact some how.
Do you know why people had to be sponsored?
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Sounds like they were sponsered for financial reasons as they arrived with nothing ...
"I think it was extremely courageous of Wim van Leer, as a Jew, to enter Germany at that murderous time, and to negotiate with the Gestapo" Wim van Leer owned an engineering business in Welwyn Garden City"
http://www.ourwelwyngardencity.org.uk/content/topics/wartime/wwii/jewish-refugees-come-to-welwyn-garden-city
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Is this Marriane Kuh in the 1839 register index?
Marieannna Kuh born 1894
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Marianne 'Mitzi' ws indeed born 1894, 30 of January
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Yes I looked up Wim van Leer just after I posted. My mum got his trade wrong. Pretty incredible stuff. He has a book that mentions Marianne which I'm tempted to see if I can get. His story is very brave, I'd like to know more about him for sure. Eva still lives in Welwyn Garden City after all this time. I've never met her, I should probably visit
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Going back to your question about sponsorship. I would need to check, but I believe that the British government was not prepared to accept the financial burden of a flood of refugees, so they imposed the requirement that sponsorship and a job in the UK was required. It was pretty much left to private individuals to express the willingness to take in a refugee.
This is why one finds many unaccompanied Jewish women working as housekeepers in the 1939 register. My mother's parents employed one such women.
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Doesn't sound like a very nice life for some of the Jewish Austrian Ladies! Even if they survived WW2
http://centraleuropeaneconomicandsocialhistory.com/maid-servants-in-england-austrian-jewish-women-in-emigration-193839
" It may be estimated that perhaps only one in ten succeeded in gaining entry, depending on the profession."
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Hi guys. Im trying to track down my granddads records. im finding the birth certificate search a struggle so im thinking the death record should be a lot easier.
all i know is Michael Stone
Death: April 20, 1993 (70)
Berlin, Berlin, Germany
I do not know the neighbourhood. Can someone help me/ point me in the right direction please?
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I am trying to find anything about Benjamin Kleinman born in Berlin Germany in 1920.His father was Aaron Kleinman.He was a Jew and worried about what was happening in Germany and came to England somewhere between 1935 and 1939,1939 being the likely date.I do not know where he came to in England but he married a English girl and I know he had a daughter born 1949to 1951 called Rose.He died in Burnham on Sea,Somerset sometime in the 1980's.I jus cannot find anything else about him?Any help will be much appreciated.
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Tree has him marrying 22 DEC 1946 • Middle St, Brighton, Sussex to Jessie Jeanette BRUKNER
Marriage Reg is on FreeBMD
Are you sure it was 1980's he died as this is the only Death Reg I can see which has him born 1912;
Deaths Sep 1982
KLEIMAN BENJAMIN 10 SEP 1912 HARINGEY 12 1646
Reg Greater London area
I can see a Daug born 1948 but not a Rose (FreeBMD)
Or are there 2 Benjamins around?
Trish :)
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He was definately born 1920 as I have his birth certificate and his dad was Aaron.I know he definately died in Burnham on sea,somerset.I am wondering if he changed his name as in my own jewish family they were always changing their surnames.This my friends tree I am attempting to do for her.She seems to kow very little about her dad for some reason?
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I have now found he was definetly born Berlin 1920 and in 1939 he was in Golders Green,Middx, and he definately died 1984 in Burnham on sea but at some point he changed his surname to Clayton/klayton.Looking for a marriage for him and details of his family in berlin Germany pre 1939.His father was Aaron kleinman(likely spelling)
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From the 1939 Register entry and the amendment to Benjamin's name to Clayton, this could have been modified at any time in later years.
His surname in 1939 showed as KLAJMAN.
Assuming he kept this surname for some years, there is this possible marriage:
Marriage 3rd Qrt 1942
Benjamin Klajman and Mary E Collins
Birmingham
6d/971
With this spelling of Klajman, there are two girl births in Birmingham, with mother's maiden name showing as Collins. This includes one for a R J Klajman (9c/788).
See also https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11845508
Monica
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Benjamin looks to have left a will. From the National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations):
Clayton, Benjamin of 14 Grove Road, Burnham-on-Sea, Somerset died on 28 May 1984. Adminstration Llandaff...
And as you found, you have the match in birth date of 27 Mar 1920 on his 1939 Register entry and death registration.
There is also a death reg and Will index entry for his wife Mary Edith who died 8 October 1985. Same address details, 14 Grove Road, Burnham-on-Sea, Somerset.
She was a little older than Benjamin. Her birth date on her death reg is showing as 29 May 1912.
As for Benjamin's history in Berlin, hopefully someone can advice further :)
Monica
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Right I have everything in England now for him and now I need to find his German records and the records for his family.I have looked on the mormon site but cannot find him!!!
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Hello,
Ancestry International has a lot of records for Berlin which include the marriage record of:
14 Mar 1918
Aron s/o Rifka Malka Kleinmann (also Klaymann), b. 13 Mar 1894 Lodz, Poland and
Emma d/o Friedrich Wilhelm Henseleit, b. 1 Feb 1896 Berlin
Aron's mother was still alive and living in Zgierz near Lodz.
The marriage certificate has two lengthy additional notes. The first dated 4 Oct 1935 corrects the spelling of the surname to Klajman.
The second dated 16 Oct 1939 states that Emma Kleinmann née Henseleit had formally left the Jewish community of Berlin. She was originally Catholic according to her birth certificate.
I didn't notice the new topic 'Benjamin Kleinmann'.