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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ribbo39 on Wednesday 15 August 18 05:19 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
This painting is on a wall in my sister's house in Harwich part of which dates from about 1460s.
Would anyone know what it says.
Any help would be appreciated.
Alan
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I can't make out the text but, to me, the image suggests the Gunpowder Plot. 5th November 1605.
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i thought it was a woman and a swaddled baby.
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The hat the person is wearing is very like that in the portrait of Edward the
Fourth,and Richard the Third was also painted wearing that style.
Edward reigned 1461-83.
Richard 1483-85.
Can’t make out what it is on the left side, a barrel, a tied up pig- there seems to be an ear.
The puffed up sleeves though suggest Elizabethan times also the full pleated pants.
Are those legs in green hose on the lower border?
Wonder if the script is Welsh.?
Hope you find out more ,
It certainly looks authentic and warrants full investigation.
Viktoria.
Third
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Going back to my thought of the Gunpowder Plot - didn't one of the conspirators live near Harwich?
I loved reading about this period of our history but a bit rusty now!
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The Gunpowder Plot was1605,the style of sleeves and pants on the image are not far off those of that period but I think a little earlier if anything.
The hat though is earlier.
How did it come into the posession of the people who have it now?
A wall painting is surely very old.
Do let us know.
Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria,
My sister & her husband bought the premises about 30 years ago as their home.
They were aware of its heritage listing.
I was just curious to learn what the writing said. I think they are legs hanging down and the "lady" appears to have a staff in her right hand and there is also something like a cornet her other hand.
Alan
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what about the 'Witches of Harwich'
http://www.witchtrials.co.uk/names.html
xin
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I think it might be someone holding a distaff & spindle?
djm297
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The left hand might be holding a lit candle,and the left ,well, something twisted?
I think a lady would have her hair coiffed,mostly they covered it up,so a man is perhaps more likely.
Could thar thing at extreme left be a barrel as has been suggested?
Gosh what a mystery.
Do you have any history of the house?
Anywhere locally, Harwich Heritage /Historical Society that could help?
You have started something! ;D
Viktoria.
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I think it might be someone holding a distaff & spindle?
djm297
think you may have something there :
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/313140980332907789/
xin
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Beer barrel, barrel tap in hand?
Weaver's tools?
Any history of trade(s) in the premises?
Ray
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A suggestion for the first few words - out of left field ...
Sor O ffeyya and mak ... (Soar, oh Fire, and make ...)
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Second line (perhaps):
... tyll the body ... ....
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Second line (perhaps):
... tyll the body ... ....
Looks good. If so, the penultimate word on line 1 would be ... thy ... (for what that's worth).
ADDED -- straddling the 2 lines, could it be thy Ackrydn-yss (= acridness, or similar)?
Or am I trying too hard to make it fit?
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How absolutely fascinating!!
Could the last 2 words on the top line read "the Archway" ?
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Is this a witch's spell - didn't James 1st/6th write the Demonology* as well as the prayer book???
* added - written 1597 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonologie
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I presume the property is a listed building, if so then try looking it up on the British Listed Buildings site and key in Harwich. You will get a list of the listed building addresses for the area and they all have a detailed description of exterior and interior. Hopefully there will be a reference to the wall painting. How intriguing ???
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How absolutely fascinating!!
Could the last 2 words on the top line read "the Archway" ?
I'd have to say there aren't enough characters there to spell Archway.
Some of it kinda looks Gaelic or Scots Gaelic, but I'm far from an expert.
I've separated the text from much of the background if that helps you folks further.
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Could the last word (second line) be Sion?
Winslass
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The Listed Buildings site has this:
'Sor I ssegn ande
mak my mon, the sschryn ys here the bodys goon'.
Wall painting in The Old Swan House, Harwich.
I looked down the list on the site and this one was the second I looked into. It must have wanted to be found!!
Not sure if the wording is the same. Looks very similar
Jay
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The Listed Buildings site has this:
'Sor I ssegn ande
mak my mon, the sschryn ys here the bodys goon'.
Wall painting in The Old Swan House, Harwich.
I looked down the list on the site and this one was the second I looked into. It must have wanted to be found!!
Not sure if the wording is the same. Looks very similar
Jay
And reading a little further....
The plaster over has late C15 wall painting of a seated male figure with horn and taper and inscription:- 'Sor I ssegn ande mak my mon, the sschryn ys here the bodys goon'. To the left, a curious oval feature with black bands alternatively interpreted as gaming board or cannon.
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Good to know that's been resolved -- well found, frogspawn4. Saved us a whole lot more agonising.
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Interesting thread! I can't imagine that there would be any Welsh inscriptions in Harwich since it's the opposite side of the country to Wales. You never know though..... not impossible.
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So then, what does the inscription actually mean? We seem to have the words but not the meaning. I would suggest the latter part is '..... the shrine is here the body's gone'. Anyone like to suggest an alternative and/or fill in the gaps?
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'Sor I ssegn ande
mak my mon, the sschryn ys here the bodys goon'.
So then, what does the inscription actually mean? We seem to have the words but not the meaning. I would suggest the latter part is '..... the shrine is here the body's gone'. Anyone like to suggest an alternative and/or fill in the gaps?
Could the text be a reference to the Gospel story of Christ’s burial – the women visiting the tomb to anoint the body with oil, and their horror in finding the stone rolled aside and the tomb empty? Just a suggestion.
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Although the body of Jesus had gone I must say the object at the right does rather resemble a body in what look like the strips a mummy would be wound in.
The gospels speak of grave cloths,and we don’t know if they were large pieces or strips.
The significance of the horn ? may be a container for spices and anointing oils.
How fascinating to have that in your home.
Viktoria.
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What an interesting thread & find!
This painting is on a wall in my sister's house in Harwich part of which dates from about 1460s.
Would anyone know what it says.
Although it seems the question has been answered, does the above '1460s' refer to the house or the painting?
I'm assuming this is not a framed painting but on the actual wall?
What a great piece of history to inherit (for free) ;D
I thought I would add, having read through the thread, the Gaelic language has only 18 letters & doesn't have a 'Z'
However, my knowledge isn't good enough to say how a 'Z' would be written (but I aim to find out now) ;) as many letters of the alphabet (in gaelic) use 2 consonants which can differ in it's context e.g. a 'V' could be 'bh' or the letter 'U' could be 'bh' ;D
Annie
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Hi folks,
Sorry for not being very active on this thread but a recent bereavement makes me take a back seat.
Just to answer some points you have raised;
I'm assuming this is not a framed painting but on the actual wall?; correct its on the wall above but slightly to the right of a doorway from memory.
more info available from poster but not decided to post.; answered above- but I don't have any more info to enlighten other than what I posted.
The property is Heritage Listed but in the interests of privacy for my sister I will leave it at that. The wording is listed but unfortunately no translation is shown hence my request.
Many thaks for all your help.
Alan
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Sorry for your bereavement. x
xin
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xinia,
Thank you - it was my brother. He will be surely missed.
Alan
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That is awful - take care. Its the everyday things that you miss .. xx
xin :-[
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So sorry to hear of the loss of your brother, Alan. Thinking of you.
GS