RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: rebekahm28 on Tuesday 31 July 18 18:27 BST (UK)
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I accept that they're possibly hard to find because they're Romany gypsy, but I still feel I'm overlooking something. I have my Jemima Burton (WHO NEVER MARRIED) on the 1939 census in a gypsy wagon in Barry, Glamorgan with her widowed mum Amelia and siblings Richard/Dickie and Albert (both single), plus an Alice Burton who was married. Jemima's birth year given as 1899. Her Caerphilly baptism says born 1910, baptised 1914. The next record I have for her is her death cert which also gives her birthyear as 1910, born Caerphilly, Glamorgan and died 1982 in Cardiff. Her cousin Elizabeth Hern signed with an X. Possibly surname should be Hearne, as some were camping with the family in 1939, although there are some Hern's around Cardiff. My 2nd cousin recalls visiting Jemima 'in the 1960s' but can't remember where, as she was a small child. There was also another brother named Charlie. No surprise I cant find a birth record, they weren't always reg'd. It's her ancestry I want, what was her mum Amelia's maiden name? Did the siblings marry? I cant seem to find anyone on previous census or marriage records. :(
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I accept that they're possibly hard to find because they're Romany gypsy, but I still feel I'm overlooking something.
I have my Jemima Burton (WHO NEVER MARRIED) on the 1939 census in a gypsy wagon in Barry, Glamorgan with her widowed mum Amelia and siblings Richard/Dickie and Albert (both single), plus an Alice Burton who was married. Jemima's birth year given as 1899.
Her Caerphilly baptism says born 1910, baptised 1914.
The next record I have for her is her death cert which also gives her birthyear as 1910, born Caerphilly, Glamorgan and died 1982 in Cardiff.
It's her ancestry I want, what was her mum Amelia's maiden name? Did the siblings marry? I cant seem to find anyone on previous census or marriage records. :(
Do you have any other info. from the Caerphilly baptism record
Does it give an exact date of birth? An address? Father's name?
Jemima Burton died age 72 Birth Sep 1910
Sep 1982 South Glamorgan Volume: 28 Page: 1761
Was it a family members name as informant on her d/c?
On the off chance that one of the births might have been registered have you looked on GRO indexes using the dates born from 1939 register to see if there's a mmn?
Is there any connection to this BURTON family?
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6P-RV4 living
Eglwysilan, Caerphilly, Glamorganshire
Noraner Burton Head Female 69 Licensed Hawker In pegs and lace
George Burton Son Male 29 Wellington, Somersetshire Horse dealer
Bertha Burton Daughter Female 27 Penybont
Dona Burton Daughter Female 24 Bangor, Carnarvonshire
Amelia Burton Daughter Female 17 Caerphilly
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Charlie was baptised on the same day as Jemima, his date of birth noted as 9 Feb 1914, no obvious birth registration.
Father on baptism is Richard, occupation gipsy, The Meadow, Caerphilly
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I wonder if this Richard Burton aged 23 being imprisoned in Cardiff in 1897 is the father?
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3371181/3371192/274/
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4605574/4605576/27/
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Ooh he could be Osprey, yes. Yes both father and son were named Richard so could well be. I'll use that newspaper archives in the future, never used it before!
Ladyhawk, there are no birth entries and most of my family didnt have them. (Romany). Thankyou Osprey for posting baptism info, I've only just had chance to come back online. Saw the Noraner Burton (etc) family, Ive kept it as I feel there must be a link, haven't established it yet as I don't have much at all on this family.
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I wonder if this Richard Burton aged 23 being imprisoned in Cardiff in 1897 is the father?
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3371181/3371192/274/
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4605574/4605576/27/
Thanks Osprey for giving father's name of Jemima from her baptism
I wonder if this might be Richard, although year of birth is a little earlier
1891 RG12; Piece: 2054; Folio: 78; Page: 12 Peterstow, Herefordshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4TCM-H2M
Travellers Van & Tents on the Common,
all occ., Hawkers
Selina Burton Head M 44 Hereford
? (Fowler) son 26 Cardiganshire
RICHARD son 20 Staffordshire
Emmanuel son 19 Chester
Herbert son 18 not known
Dina Cardon companion single 35 Worcestershire
Nora Smith Companion single 19 Worcestershire
I know your focus in on Jemima Burton and trying to find out her mother Amelia's maiden name
but thought I'd post these Burton census entries for you to look at just in case they might be related
1911 The Brooks Penallt, Monmouthshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7P9-9J1
Selina Burton Head Widow 70 Cross Hill Gloucester Hawker
Selina Burton Daughter 42 Moldle, Shropshire
Emmanuel Burton Son 38 Rexbury, Cheshire
Isabl Burton Daughter 29 Pentrecoed, Shropshire
1871 Newhall Wrenbury
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBN2-PBD
Sleeping in tents in the Highway
Charles Burton 37 Pontypool S Wales grinder and tinker
Elizabeth 40 Salop
Emily 16 Wrenbury Ches.
Selina 13 Hereford
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hmm, I'd spotted that family in 1901, at least I think it's the same family, but the ages are interesting
In Caravan, Shirenewton, Mon RG13/4915 folio 105 pg 15
Charles Birden head mar 55 hawker b. Nk
Selina wife 69 hawker b. Nk
James son 38 hawker b. Gloucestershire
Acine (?) dau 31 hawker b. Shropshire
Isabella dau 28 hawker b. Shropshire
Herbert son 23 hawker b. Shropshire
Richard son 22 hawker b. Shropshire
:-\
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Wondering if this is another story about him - pity the wife isn't named
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3271206/3271209/59/
Added - this story seems to confirm, as Emmanuel had a previous falling out with the same family
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4327268/4327271/16/
And a story about Charles where the daughter is named Sena
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4236747/4236755/110/
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given the 1911 in Penallt, there was a burial 12 Dec 1909 in Mitchel Troy for Charles Burton 69 of Millbrook, Penallt.
Also, 12 Jan 1912 burial of Syner Burton 42 of Penallt.
OK, just searched Mitchel Troy burials for Burtons & look like several of your family are there.
Albie Alfred Burton 47 Newport bd 8 Nov 1965
Amelia Burton 67 Newport bd 7 Dec 1943
Charles Burton 57 Newport bd 23 Dec 1969
Emmanuel Burton 75 Brook Orchard Bungalow, Mitchel Troy bd 28 Aug 1943
Herbert Burton 70 Brook Orchard Bungalow, Mitchel Troy bd 3 July 1943
Isabell Burton 69 The Bungalow, Mitchel Troy Common bd 22 Nov 1941
Jemima Burton 71 Rumney, Cardiff bd 6 Sep 1982
Richard Burton 65 Monmouth bd 17 Sep 1938
Richard Burton 63 Newport bd 7 May 1970
Selina Burton 94 Mitchel Troy bd 27 Jan 1926
There was also Josiah Burton aged 30 buried in 1920 and Timothy aged 72 in 1843. I'd hoped the marriages were in the same church, but no.
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a couple of baptisms
Isabella Burton bp in Ellesmere, Shropshire 4 Feb 1872 dau of Charles, tinman, & Selina of Pentrecoed
Herbert Burton bp in Church Preen, Shropshire 16 June 1873 son of Charles, travelling tinman, & Selina, note born in Cardeston parish
Possible for Richard bp 4 Jan 1874 in Preston Gubbalds son of Henry, tinman, & Selina, address Merrington Field?
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given the 1911 in Penallt, there was a burial 12 Dec 1909 in Mitchel Troy for Charles Burton 69 of Millbrook, Penallt.
Also, 12 Jan 1912 burial of Syner Burton 42 of Penallt.
OK, just searched Mitchel Troy burials for Burtons & look like several of your family are there.
Albie Alfred Burton 47 Newport bd 8 Nov 1965
Amelia Burton 67 Newport bd 7 Dec 1943
Charles Burton 57 Newport bd 23 Dec 1969
Emmanuel Burton 75 Brook Orchard Bungalow, Mitchel Troy bd 28 Aug 1943
Herbert Burton 70 Brook Orchard Bungalow, Mitchel Troy bd 3 July 1943
Isabell Burton 69 The Bungalow, Mitchel Troy Common bd 22 Nov 1941
Jemima Burton 71 Rumney, Cardiff bd 6 Sep 1982
Richard Burton 65 Monmouth bd 17 Sep 1938
Richard Burton 63 Newport bd 7 May 1970
Selina Burton 94 Mitchel Troy bd 27 Jan 1926
Emmanuel Burton of Brook Bungalow Mitchel Troy Common died 24th August 1943
Probate Llandaff 25 Sep 1943 to Jemima Burton spinster Effects £1705 15s. 4d.
Herbert Burton of Brook Bungalow Mitcheltroy Common died 30 Jun 1943 Monmouthshire
Probate Llandaff 26 Jul 1943 to Frank Burton retired engineer.
Isabella Burton of Brook cottage Mitchel Troy Common spinster died
Death 18 Nov 1941 at The General Hosp Monmouth
Administration Llandaff: 25 Aug 1943 to Emmanuel Burton horse-dealer
Effect £530 Further Grant 6th Jan 1944
Same details for Isabella as above but
Admin to Rialto Burton haulage contractor Effects £520
Former Grant D.R. 25 Aug 1943
Probate Date: 7 Jan 1944
Registry: Llandudno
Jemima Burton of Shire Newton Caravan Site Cardiff
Death 26 Aug 1982 South Glamorgan
Administration: 15 Oct 1982 Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Richard Burton of Coporation Road Newport died 14 Sep 1938 at Gold-wire Lane Monmouthshire Administration Llandaff 8 Oct 1938 to Isabella Burton spinster
Effects £826 17s. 2d.
For info. - may relate
Selina Burton of the Brook Farm Penalt, spinster died 8 Jan 1912 Monmouthshire
Adminstration Llandaff 2 Mar 1912 to Louisa Burton widow Effects £78 172. 9d.
Rialto possible son of Henry & Harriet Burton nee Jones Nr Coedelwa
Henry Burton 35 Horse dealer
Harriet Burton 35
Ethel Jones 11 Stepdau Newchurch East
Beatrice Jones 7 ditto
Rialto Burton 1 Shirenewton, Monmouthshire
John Burton 3 Months
1901c RG13; Piece: 4916; Folio: 25; Page: 9
BURTON, RIALTO mmn JONES
1899 J Quarter in CHEPSTOW Volume 11A Page 8
BURTON, HORI IVOR mmn JONES
1905 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 200
BURTON, OHAD REUBEN mmn JONES - death 1982 Chad Reuben bn 1910
1910 J Quarter in NEWPORT. MON Volume 11A Page 340
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7P9-9VX - Rialto & family
Penallt, Gypsy Caravan In A Field Near The Hoop, Monmouthshire
This might be Ethel with her mother Harriet although she's noted as a widow
1891 Piece: 4335 Folio: 129 Page Number: 11
Roadside Farm Newchurch East
Charlotte Jones 65
Leonard W Jones 30
Jacob Jones 28
Harriett Jones 25 dau
William L Jones 6 grandson
Ethel E Jones 1 grandaughter
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Albie Alfred Burton 47 Newport bd 8 Nov 1965
Albie A Burton Birth abt 1918
Dec 1965 Newport Monmouthshire Volume: 8c Page: 150
Births Dec 1918 Bedwelty 11a 210
Albie A Burton mmn Ryles
EDIT
There’s this public tree on Anc*y information should be verified here's a small portion
Ann Amelia Ryles parents unknown 1871–1943
birth SEP 1871 • Staffordshire, United Kingdom
death3 DEC 1943 • Mitchel Troy, Monmouthshire, Wales
No marriage details
Spouse Richard Burton born 1971 died 1938
His parents
Charles Emmanuel Burton 1834-1909 his father Jeremiah 1817 m Harriett Lovell 1815
Selina ORTON 1831-1927
Children of Ann Amelia & Richard Burton
Albie Alfred born 1898 died 1965
Richard born 1900
Charles born 1901
EDIT
family search has this bp Norton le Moors, Staffordshire for an
AAR parents George Frederick Ryles & Georgina
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL3G-LMHH
RYLES, ANN AMELIA mmn TRENFIELD
1871 S Quarter in WOLSTANTON Volume 06B Page 135
There is this marriage in 1896 Staffordshire
RYLES Amelia A
JONES Bernard B
Normacot, Holy Evangelist Stoke-On-Trent
1896 marriage https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLQD-RY2V
I think this his her death entry
Ann A Jones age 81 Mar 1953 Stoke on Trent Staffordshire Volume: 9b Page: 653
and this is Ann Ameila on 1911 with dau born c1898, a servant in Jack household
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW76-
JONES, JENNY mmn RYLES
1897 S Quarter in WOLSTANTON Volume 06B Page 158
1901 RG13; Piece: 2611; Folio: 20; Page: 31
Bernard B Jones 30
Ann A Jones 29 Burslem, Staffordshire
Jenney Jones 3
1911 boarding Bernard https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW7C-ZLR
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Sorry had no wifi signal, now am home I'm going to sift through all this info tonight - thankyou! Back soon. The Selina Burton of Shire Newton caravan site, Cardiff IS the same one, definitely without a doubt. Same address as on death cert.
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I'm sorry but I'm coming to this thread late in the day. Jemima Ethel Burton was born on 11 August 1910 and baptised at Caerphilly on 19 February 1914, daughter of Richard & Amelia Burton, the Meadows, Caerphilly, Gipsy. She was buried at Mitchel Troy, Monmouthshire on 6 September 1982. Her father, Richard, was baptised at Preston Gubbals, Shropshire on 4 January 1875, son of Henry and Selina Burton, Merrington field, Tinman. Henry is actually Charles Burton and Selina was formerly Selina Organ. Charles Burton and was the son of Jeremiah Burton & Harriet Lovell. This line is part of a long-established Romany family that I have traced back to the early to mid 18th century. I published a book on the family at the end of last year. Please get in touch if you want more details.
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Zenigma, oh my goodness I'll private message you.
Ladyhawk - thankyou for the detailed info, I haven't been on any of the sites for a good while for a few reasons but I appreciate it. Stay safe all x