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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jacky_d on Saturday 28 July 18 16:28 BST (UK)
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Hi all iv posted several things on the site and in all honesty the response has been amazing. I am far from a beginner, however iv hit the same brick wall now since i started back in 201/2002! and just do not know where else to continue with my search.
My italian great grandparents were married in cardiff in 1883 but my great grandfather appears to have disappeared until 1889/90 and during this time my great grandmother gave birth to 2 children one in 1885 the other in 1888. I have had my DNA done and all my italian matches are leading back to Senerchia Italy. but I can not find my great grandfather leaving the uk or entering the UK and I just do not know where else to search iv done all the criminal records all the aliases which i know they used and i also have all the uk documents to back the things up that I already know. so if any one can give me guidance on where I should go from here I would really appreciate it please.
I have had a suggestion from some one that he may have had to have gone back to Italy perhaps around 1885 due to the Eritrean War but im not sure how or where to find any information.
Thank you in advance
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Can you post links to your previous threads? Saves duplication of effort.
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This might sound random, but any chance he could have worked on ships, boats, trains, etc?
Steamboats travelled right around the UK, stopping to pick up and put down at various ports along the way, but sometimes without ever leaving the UK - e.g., Edinburgh to Exmouth and back round again via ports such as Liverpool etc. etc.. I found this out when searching for a 'disappeared' 3x GGrandfather. I imagine it would be similar for freight on trains.
This would mean he would not appear on passenger or crew lists for foreign travel.
If this is the case, he could seem to disappear, but be away for a while and come back for visits!
Though if he isn't mentioned on the birth certificates, then perhaps not?
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Hi Josey there are no previous threads to this query all other queries were related to my great grandparents children and through the help of this site have now been resolved. But thank you for your response.
LindseyC thank you and i actually thought about this too but I have now found the father of the first 2 children and he was Italian too, Its so difficult as I have so many DNA matches but I can not make a connection until firstley I find out where he was and secondly his birth records, I have always thought he was married to someone else as well as my great grandmother, but all my lines of enquiry just keep hitting a constant brick wall.
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There isn't going to be much in the way of information between the 1881-91 census.
You say that 2 children born 1885 & 88 have a different father but do they have his surname or the husband's?
Could it be the husband using a different name or have you ruled that out?
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Hi Jim1 the boys took on the family name/s until 1904 then both reverted to a name which is untraceable but Iv now do know who the father is and he was also a married man and we have made contact with that side of the family. there are endless trees which my Grandfather would slot into nicely but its not enough and I really don't want to contact all of my DNA matches with Maybe's or ifs. I just don't know if because iv been doing it for so long and trying so hard im blocked as to where to go next! Thank you for your reply.
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the boys took on the family name/s until 1904 then both reverted to a name which is untraceable
Doesn't really answer the question.
So is the family name that of the father or the husband & did they revert to the father's name later or the husband's?
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Hi again Jacky
How genetically close/distant are your Italian DNA matches? They may not be descended from your missing man, they may be descended from his parents or grandparents. Do you have parents for him? Was his father Nicola?
Also, on what do you base your Italian GGF's disappearance? I count myself lucky if I can find mine on all censuses and present at their own marriages but for all I know they may have been elsewhere in the country (or abroad!) for the intervening periods. I've not inherited any diaries saying where someone was and with whom for a year, let alone several years. Voters lists and rate books are a bonus but until universal franchise I'd only ever expect to see head of house. Children's school records may name the father but it could be the mother who gave this info, dad could have been away with his fancy woman but mum would hardly advertise this fact! We assume that if the father is named on a bap then he was present for that bap (and the conception) but unless we have a photo or he actually signed the register (and that's not normal for CofE but Catholic ones may be different) we have no hard evidence. When the children marry they may not know their father's proper name, they may invent someone to avoid embarrassment for whatever reason, the father named may be their stepfather, etc etc.
Rootschat has a Travelling People board which might give you some leads on where to look for Antonio if his trade was a fairground organ player.
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I can not find my great grandfather leaving the uk or entering the UK
You won't unless he was a passenger on a ship so if he traveled by land there is no record http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/passengers/
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I'd stick his details on here and let people here have a go - if anyone can break down walls it's the guys here
If they married in Cardiff, especially around the Docks area the idea of him working at sea is quite likely
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Jim1 the Family name is the husbands, the boys took on the husbands name until 1904 but the name they took on after 1904 was neither the Mothers maiden name or the fathers name or the Husbands name as mentioned "untraceable"! on both the boys birth certificates are the mothers maiden names.
Thank you for taking your time to reply.
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Hi familydar thank you again for your reply, that's a really good question your asking me and that's why i like other peoples thoughts as it makes me think and you make a valid point due to the fact they had there own first child in 1890 and from then there is quite a good paper trail of him and his family eg news paper cutting etc but iv never found any thing at all from 83 to 90 which included him so it is just an assumption on my part as i didn't think it could be feasible that she would have had 2 other children by another man whilst he was around but i'm guessing i wasn't there so i should be so quick to make such assumptions.
Thank you again.
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I have now found the father of the first 2 children
What were your sources?
So the scenario is that after 1904 the first 2 boys took on another surname but the rest of the family didn't. Is this correct?
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Jim1 "So the scenario is that after 1904 the first 2 boys took on another surname but the rest of the family didn't. Is this correct?" yes you are correct!
My Sources
Birth certificates for both sons, Birth record from the workhouse for 2nd son. death record of my great grandfather. Burial records and grave of my great grandfather and Grandmother, Marriage certificate of the 2ns son, Baptism record of eldest son, word of mouth from my Dad, and lots of elders from both 1st son and 2nd son, and finally DNA from 2 people from eldest son lineage, 3 people from 2nd sons lineage, and 4 from my Lineage!
Thank you very much Jim1 for your interest.
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OK. You'll have to excuse all of the questions but it's quite difficult playing catch-up with no names.
So with made up names you have 2 births with father as John Smith & mother as Mary Brown.
From around 1890 the 2 sons are brought up by Fred & Mary Jones & use Jones as a surname until 1904 when they change to something other than Smith, Brown or Jones.
On their marriages they give John Smith as their father.
Right?
It would appear that John Smith & Mary Brown were co-habiting over the period of the births as he would have had to have given his consent for his name to be included.
For whatever reason Mary & Fred Jones are back together by 1890. There may have been some bad feeling on the part of Fred Jones towards the 2 boys & reaching the age of 21 the eldest has changed his name with the younger one following suit.
So the crucial time is where was Fred Jones from 1885-90.
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Hi Jim i thoroughly understand how it all looks when written and in all honesty only for many many years of research and finally finding proof then i wouldn't believe or begin to understand any of it. The reason im not putting all the names is purely because most of my time and energy has been spent on the 2 boys( if you wish to see the full list then i will inbox you) and now its time to focus On my great great Grandfather Antonio Mazzone alias Marco/Marcho/Mazzo/ Born 22/05 between 1856 and 1857 however on hospital records his birth is down once as 22/05/1856 and 3 times 22/05/1857 his age at death would correspond with 1857 but again until I find his birth record its just another assumption as some records would put him down as being born 1859/60.
Census records say he was born in Naples and all DNA matches with Mazzone are either Senerchia or Canada and a few in the UK these matches are 3 cousins and 4th cousins.
As a final resort i took out a free trial on ancestry and went through every single criminal record voters list workhouse records from cardiff between 1883 and 1887 Nothing at all not even with any of his other names.
On his marriage certificate it says his fathers name is Kito however we know that the letter K is not used in the Italian alphabet (Yet another presumption) is his fathers name could have been Vito!
There is however a Antonio Marco lurking in the back ground 1863 prison records but have not pursued this as DNA has now confirmed I am actually a mazzone and Not a Marco! ALthough i do have a couple DNA matches for Marco it is however very very distant. Please feel free to ask as many questions as you wish.
As much as it may sound silly your questions really do help me look at it from other directions.
Thank you for your interest and responses
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If he travelled around with a fair then possibly don't confine your researches to Wales. FindMyPast has a criminal record from 1883 over in Huntingdon I think it was, may or may not be him (he was acquitted). Also lots of possibles with the ice cream connection in Scotland.
Jane :-)
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Thank you Jane I will take a look at that now and again you are right i now realise iv have been focusing on South Wales/cheshire/oswestry/Wrexham areas as these are the areas I know they were for sure. Thank you for your valued input.
Jacky
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Hi Jane me again iv just searched the criminal records and nothing is coming up for 1883 which name did you find this under iv searched Marco and Mazzone and nothing at all for that year thank you.
Jacky
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Jacky
I searched all records using 1860 YoB +-2, forename ant*, keyword organ. Totally different surname (Fracano) so probably not him unless he was using another alias.
There are also a couple of Catholic censuses with more likely sounding names but I don't think the other family members fit, so probably a different individual again.
But it begs the question how many organ-grinding ice-cream selling Antonios of the right sort of age were there in the UK in the late 19th century and is it possible that two or more have been accidentally amalgamated?
Jane :-)
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Hi Jim1 the boys took on the family name/s until 1904 then both reverted to a name which is untraceable but Iv now do know who the father is and he was also a married man and we have made contact with that side of the family. there are endless trees which my Grandfather would slot into nicely but its not enough and I really don't want to contact all of my DNA matches with Maybe's or ifs. I just don't know if because iv been doing it for so long and trying so hard im blocked as to where to go next! Thank you for your reply.
Hello jacky d
I don't quite follow your reasonings.
1) If you are working your line backward from your last known and documented ancestor that you knew, or your own family personally knew, I'm wondering how you claim to have late 19th Century information, but don't know what the family name was in 1904?
Family history is about working backward from your known family and best with Certificates / documents and Wills (if they left one), as they often give maiden names and other information (Wills may give siblings). Witnesses and those present a death, can sometimes be relatives (but not always).
2) You cannot fit your family to another tree, because it looks near, or because DNA suggests so, as you need a solid line backward from a known family member of yours, back to the brickwall.
Mark
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hi Jane iv found it as you say it was Franco thank you again and i will be following all your volued leads thank you again.
Jacky
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Hello Jacky
The documented known family of yours in Great Britain, did any of them leave a 'Will', or their Estate (belongings) go to 'Administration' (Proved after death, some Proved up to several years after they died)?
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
Sometimes Wills / Amins., can give other family names, especially where the Testator had no children, although a few occasionally leave to Charity. However, without ordering and checking a Probate Will or Admin., of a known family member, you won't know if the Probate will help you or not, with other family?
Mark
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Hi Mark yes there is one will which belonged to the Mazzone side however iv not pursued it as its complicated and will open a can of worms which I don't want to go down that path as im kind of like a dog with a bone and wont give up until I find the truth. So as my late dad used to say to me all the time "let sleeping dogs lie"!
Thank you again for your response
Jacky
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Hi Jacky
I'm afraid, I am like a dog with a bone. I would apply for a Will if it might help me, as you don't have to publish it, or tell anyone. However, some who delve, may find an unhappy deception ...
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One lady was upset, when she discovered her own Scottish Father and her supposed Grandparents (all deceased) had deceived her over her Father's real names, after arrival in Canada. Her Grandmother was really her blood Grandmother, but her Grandfather was not.
She knew her Father was known to have emigrated to Canada on the same ship, with his supposed parents.
Her Father travelled to Canada using his birth/real names, on the same Liner ticket number as a married couple (one of whom really was his Mother). Both claimed to be the lady's Grandparents. The lady, his Daughter had missed the same ticket number and the later dropping of Mc from his (Liner manifest) surname and using it as a forename. That forename here is usually female.
In Canada he got married with his made-up forename and took his Mother's married surname and had two Daughters. His Date of Birth was always correct.
His RAF Record proved the deception, as he used his Birth names to sign up (Liner ticket names) and contained his next of kin, his Mother's Maiden surname (before her Marriage). But she couldn't apply until we worked out what he had done and confirmed his real name.
Mark
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Hi mark thank you for sharing that story I do think as amazing as it is that folk like us try every thing possible to keep our family history alive, at times it does unearth some shocking truths I know i found that my grandad had a daughter pre marriage with his first wife and the only reason I found this as it was written in the margin of his R.A.F record as ever i then went on a mission and when i was in the records office and found out that she had spent her whole life in a institute i just broke down right in the middle of the records office so so sad. But from what I already know about this will im afraid its surrounded by injustice, lies and betrayal. so im not pursuing it, as there is nothing really that can possibly be done now. any way completely off subject perhaps one day ill write a book haha
Thank you again
Jacky
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"let sleeping dogs lie"
Is all I heard from my family when I first started to research, no help was forth coming from them, no sorting out of their records they already had and it just made me even more determine to research and find out EVERYTHING and I found out everything they were hiding and more they had no idea about and decades on they still don't know and they still think I don't know either. ::)
FH is about research and finding who are ancestors were, good , bad or indifferent, it isn't about changing anything and although we all make judgements based on what we see, hear, read and some ancestors I decided I really didn't like................ then later find out more and realise they were all human beings, all made good and bad decisions based on their life and times they lived.
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Iluleah - hear hear ;D
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I agree you are right but for now at least! I have chosen to take a step back and for once listen to my dad gosh its a good job hes not still here he would probably die with shock haha
Thank you all.
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I agree Iluleah,
I've found out all sorts of things my parents, grandparents and living relatives wouldn't want me to know, and many things they still don;t know.
I found out that a GGrandfather had abandoned his wife and children (one of whom was my Grandfather) and went to the US, and boy was I angry. But with my researchers head on I carried on seeking out all the information I could, and found that in his new life he was very kindly thought of by everyone who knew him. He was just a flawed human being like the rest of us.
Nowadays, if his marriage hadn't worked out he would have got divorced without the stigma of it, the kids would get child support and he would have contact with them.
It just shows how little right we have to judge our ancestors, as we don't live in their world with the cultural and social norms and mores of their time, or place.
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Suspicions, Assumptions or Guessing in Family History and also not seeing actual documents (or not seeing images of documents), is absolutely NO good at all.
If there looks to be a Will, then that Will is a must see for me and others who have replied, a Will might contain vital information.
Mark
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Hi Mark thank you for your reply, however im not quite sure what assumptions you think im making or what documents iv not seen? the will is out there for every one to see! And looking at it given I know the family inside out, then I don't need to make assumptions about any thing yes my words were strong but truthful given the facts. Actually ordering the original document is not on my list of priorities at the moment. And when i first found the document I didn't just leave it there I did actually go and speak to a solicitor to get some advice and also spoke to some one who knew him very well so sorry but NO assumptions just pure facts! But again thank you for all of your responses.
Jacky