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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Grandies on Friday 27 July 18 05:14 BST (UK)
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Hello all.
I am hoping for help to locate William Common prior to the 1881 census, where he lives in Picton Terrace Newcastle. He is a 27 yr old Glass Maker and gives his birthplace as Sunderland Durham. He is married to Jane Ann (was Wilson), and has 3 children. The eldest Anne is to become my gr grandmother.
I did find the record for his marriage to Jane Ann Wilson in the July to September quarter of 1876.
I have found subsequent records for them in the following years census until his death, which would appear to be Gateshead, March 1917 where he was given as age 63.
I have been unable to find him in the census records for 1861 or 1871.
William was born in Sunderland, but married in Newcastle, and there on the 1881 and 1901 census.
But, he did spend time in Sunderland too! His daughter Mary was born there in 1878, son John Henzell born Newcastle 1881 yet died in Sunderland the following year, and they were living there during the 1891 census.
There is another family in the Sunderland area (possibly related) John and Catherine Common with a son Wlliam around the same age, which does cause confusion.
William lived his final years and died as a widower in Gateshead, Durham in 1917.
I am hoping someone will be able to help me to find William prior to his marriage, so I can identify his parents and follow his line back.
All help gratefully received.
Eileen
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There is a birth of a William Commons Dec Qtr 1853 Sunderland 10a 311 (on FreeBMD) but I can't find this birth on the GRO Birth Index to confirm the mother's maiden name :-\
Do you have William's marriage cert?
Kay
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Thanks for the reply Kay.
No, I have not applied for the certificates yet. I am in Australia, so depend on snail mail. May be my next step.
Actually I am embarrassed to admit I have an note on my tree from research done 8 years ago, where I have given detailed information on William’s marriage, but no source. Blowed if I can find the record now!
Below is what I have recorded.
Marriage of William and Jane Ann Common: Married on 1st July 1876 in the parish church of St. Johns in Newcastle on Tyne.
William Common aged 22 : Glassman.
His father William Common : Boiler Smith.
Jane Ann Wilson aged 21.
Her father William Wilson : Joiner.
Witnesses : Robert Wales and Dorothy Hill Bennett.
Coincidentally the family in Sunderland have boilersmiths and iron workers. William is the only Glass worker so far.
Would I be better off going for his birth certificate Kay? Would there be any more information on his marriage certificate?
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At least with the marriage cert you know it is the right family. The birth cert might be another William and without finding it on the GRO Birth Index you can't get it emailed to you :-\
I also wonder where the marriage details you have came from - they are very specific even with witnesses
Kay
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Oh, if only I could remember Kay, but it was early days, and I was not aware of the importance of making notes!
I have, at times trolled thru various bishops transcripts, but the only other likely place is the Family Search website.
I have just registered on the GRO website, and gave the details from the birth index below,
Name: William Commons
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1853
Registration District: Sunderland
County: Durham
Event Place: Sunderland, Durham, England
Mother's Maiden Name (not available before 1911 Q3):
Volume: 10A
Page: 311
Line Number: 24
You are right, despite many variations it cannot find a match.
I will try for a match for the marriage certificate.
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On second thoughts, the marriage certificate won’t give me any more information than I have, just confirm those details . I really need his birth certificate to get his mothers maiden name. So, I have reported the missing entry to the GRO, and hopefully if they get it sorted, I will be able to apply for his birth certificate.
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I do hope they find it and can email it to you Fingers crossed it helps in the search and do let us know. Will continue to fiddle
Kay
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There is a birth of a William Commons Dec Qtr 1853 Sunderland 10a 311 (on FreeBMD) but I can't find this birth on the GRO Birth Index to confirm the mother's maiden name :-\
Do you have William's marriage cert?
Kay
Sunderland Registrars have no entry for a birth registration of a William Commons in 1853
https://www.sunderland.gov.uk/article/12356/Copies-of-birth-death-and-marriage-certificates
Searching for "sounds like" only gives CUMMINGS and CUMMINS
The GRO Index on FreeBMD is one of the typed copies, not the original, so it could be wrong.
Stan
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Looking at FreeBMD there are 11 names with that GRO reference (10a) 311 in Dec qtr 1853.
There should be 10 names maximum. I haven't checked all the images though.
It might mean that someone has been indexed twice.
The only other William with that ref may have been illegitimate? Has a dash for mother's maiden surname in the new index.
ATKINSON, WILLIAM
mother -
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 311
So it might be a possibility. I think in the past where this has been flagged up on Rootschat we have noticed that the GRO website has only indexed one of the surnames.
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Found all the page 311 names on the Sunderland site (except of course William Commons, as Stan said)
William Atkinson has the index ref M19/78
The index range is from Catherine (Catharine) Jane Clark, M19/72, to James Carragher, M19/81
Jane Childs, indexed by the GRO in Dec 53 on (10a) 312, has the Sunderland ref M19/82
And for the previous page, 310 - this is interesting - John Black in the old GRO index (typed version) appears as Jane Black (female) on the new index, and also on the Sunderland version. In the local indexes Jane's ref is M19/71.
So that at least confirms the ten names on 311, including William Atkinson. But was he also indexed by the GRO as Commons?
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I see son William born 1879 had the middle name Wilson, which was his mother's maiden surname.
Clutching at straws......do you know why son Joseph born in 1881 had the middle name Henzell?
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I see son William born 1879 had the middle name Wilson, which was his mother's maiden surname.
Clutching at straws......do you know why son Joseph born in 1881 had the middle name Henzell?
Interesting - Probably unrelated but there is a tree on Anc that starts with the marriage of a Thomas Common(s) to Margaret Henzell in Newcastle in 1799 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N654-C5Q Their children appear to be
Jane Henzell Commons b 1799 Mary Commons b 1802, Martha Henzell Commons b 1803 and Joseph Henzell Commons b 1805
Kay
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Lovely information. Thank you all. Seems like I have to wait for a response from the GRO before I can do anything further about his birth certificate.
I was intrigued with the “Henzell” middle name and have tried looking for a Henzell, Common marriage.
Thank you Jen and Kay for giving me another avenue to check out. If I start with that 1799 marriage and try following it down. Gives me something to be exploring while I wait.
Very grateful for all the input.
Thanks,
Eileen
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Just a quick extra question please. I notice that some have mentioned viewing the names on the page where William Common(s) birth is / should be registered.
The record I have is the A-Z record of the Dec quarter 1853.
How do I get to view the individual page names, please?
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To view the 11 names with the same ref on FreeBMD search with no name with the District Sunderland Dec Qtr 1853 Vol 10a Page 311 and 11 names should result
I have been fiddling with the descendants of Joseph Henzill Commons b1805 and to help following them I think the surname varies between Cummins/Cummings/Commons etc
I think this is the family in 1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBC-524 with another Joseph Henzill Commons b 1837 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1JM-ZQC
By 1881 I think this is the son Joseph's family included William b 1862 Sunderland who was a glass maker https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-FX1T I think Joseph has been missed because he is on the previous page -Joseph Cummings b 1836 Gateshead - Married - Mariner
Kay
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What about William Muirhead?
In 1871 in Newcastle he is 17 years old, born Sunderland, son of son of Robert and Mary A.
Robert Muirhead a Flint glass maker.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BX-6Y7
Marriage of Robert Muirhead and Mary Ann Common (father Joseph) in Newcastle in 1854
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFJ9-9P3
So Mary Ann would be the sister of Joseph Henzell Commons born 1837?
Is there any further sign of William Muirhead after 1871? Don't think there is a birth registration.
John
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Taking the family Kay found in 1841 on to the next census in Gateshead.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVQ-4F8
Youngest child there is Margaret, age 1, but Joseph and Sarah already had a daughter of that name
Is this the birth reg of the younger Margaret, with another dash for mother's maiden name?
COMMONS, MARGARET
mother -
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in GATESHEAD UNION Volume 24 Page 154
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What about William Muirhead?
They are in Sunderland in the 1861 census
Robert is found on piece 3767 folio 59 page 13
Mary A, 25, William, 7, Joseph 4, and Isabella, 2, are page 14
Transcribed Morehead on findmypast, Murehead on ancestry
Robert a Flint Glass Maker
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Thanks for the ideas.
So many variations on the Common name, and many Henzell middle names too!
Back to my William. I found several possible births in 1853, but none so far name the father as William, as mentioned in my record of his marriage.
I may need to apply for the marriage certificate to confirm that detail.
But for now, I will explore all the information, and ideas you have given me above.
He is being very difficult!
Thanks for the help.
Eileen
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I must admit that William Muirhead looks a good possibility - born pre the parents marriage and following Robert Muirhead's profession.
I can't see a birth for him with the surname Muirhead and children who are illegitimate can invent a father with the same christian name that they have :-\
Kay
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I am working my way through the possibilities you have suggested John and Kay. Thank you.
What do people mean when they refer to the old index and new index in FreeBMD?
If William was illegitimate and “invented “ a father William ( who he said was a boilersmith), this would be recorded on his marriage certificate too?
He did use the Henzell middle name for one of his children, so it seems that he was from the line you discovered Kay. And possibly an illegitimate child of Joseph Henzell Commons(1805) daughter, as you have suggested John.
I will work my way through the census records for those years and let you know if I make any discoveries.
It’s a tangled web and made more difficult by the birth registration apparently being corrupted.
Keeps me busy. Thanks again,
Eileen.
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Hi
The new index is those of births and deaths that the GRO added to their website not so long ago.
Births 1837-1917, including the mother's maiden name pre 1911 (not given in the original index)
Deaths 1837-1957, gives age on death, including pre 1866
Both indexes give full names, no initials.
You can order pdf copies for £6, and save a third of the cost of purchasing a certificate (has the same info)
Marriages haven't been done, sadly.
The original indexes for births, marriages and deaths are found, as you say, on FreeBMD, FamilySearch, and the two main pay sites. On FreeBMD and the pay sites you can see scans of the images to check those transcribed references!
John
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That’s good to know John. Will be very helpful to pin people down!
I am still up to my eyes in Common / Henzell relatives.
I am sure it will all be clear, one day!
Thanks again,
Eileen
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Hello all. I am stumped with this one. I have been seeking to distinguish “my” William Common(s) from another. This one says he was born in Bishopwearmouth, near Sunderland in County Durham, as was.
To get info of his father, I ordered his birth certificate. However GRO have issued me a refund, and say they have no record of him at the reference given.
I have confirmed the details vis Ancestry search, and rechecked via Free BMD and Family Search websites. Where do I go from here? Anyone struck this before?
Will be happy for any assistance.
Eileen
Below is the copy from Family Search site.
Name: William Commons
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1853
Registration District: Sunderland
County: Durham
Event Place: Sunderland, Durham, England
Volume: 10A
Page: 311
Affiliate Line Number: 24
Citing this Record
"England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NCW-LBR : 1 October 2014), William Commons, 1853; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, Sunderland, Durham, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
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The GRO Indexes website has no mention of William Commons in 1853?
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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I downloaded the relevant page from FreeBMD.
This type-written index page definitely shows William Commons at the reference you have given.
I would write back to GRO, with a copy of that page, and ask them to look again.
The GRO Indexes website re-transcribed all certificate info; so maybe a transcription error?
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Here's a snip from the printed index
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The birth is on freebmd with those reference numbers.
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There is a procedure on the GRO website for notifying any perceived errors. They will then look into it. I have notified about 15 errors, some are omissions, some mis-transcribed. About 5 still outstanding due to lockdown.
2 errors I have had to notify twice as the first time they said nothing wrong. One still outstanding, the one that was eventually corrected was 2 births of the same name in the same place, same qtr, same year, the GRO index only had one entry.
Ray
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Here's a snip from the printed index
Interestingly the adjacent record for St Columb is not on the new GRO index either. Seems some records have been skipped ?
Correction - it was recorded. I'll keep looking.
The only male Commons births I have found in Sunderland 1850-1868 are a pair of twins (one of them a William) in 1862 March, MMN = Mason. A small number for any family then? FreeBMD finds four, including William 1853.
Presumably the staff trying to provide your certificate are stumped by their own index, rather than accepting the ref. you have supplied.
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Just out of curiosity I checked the names listed on Freebmd for that particular reference in the GRO website.
Of the 11 names listed two are not on the GRO website, William Commons and Catherine Jane Clark.
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Should only be 10 names.
One is
ATKINSON, WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 311
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By the way, welcome to Rootschat!
John
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There is a procedure on the GRO website for notifying any perceived errors. They will then look into it. I have notified about 15 errors, some are omissions, some mis-transcribed.
Thanks for all of these responses. So quick! I need to go through each one properly, but regarding the procedure for notifying errors, I did report this omission to GRO in 2018. Their response was below,
Report Type: Missing entry in the birth index Date Submitted: 27 Jul 2018 10:46
Name: William Commons Mother's Maiden Surname:
Details: The birth entry is shown in the England and Wales Civil registration birth index, yet no matching entries are found when I search in the GRO index
Current Status: Investigated – No amendment required GRO Index Reference: 1853 D Sunderland 10a 311
GRO Comments: Indexed data is correct.
I am interested to learn how to see all entries on the relevant volume and page.
How do I do that ?
Once again, thanks for looking everyone.
Eileen
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Local indexes for Sunderland here
https://www.sunderland.gov.uk/article/12356/Copies-of-birth-death-and-marriage-certificates
No birth indexed for William Commons?
Search is by decade, so, yes, lots of William Atkinsons
We can pin down the one in Dec qtr 1853, GRO ref 10a 311
ATKINSON William
Year 1853
Index Number M19/78
By cross-ref with other names on page 311, i.e. Isabella Dick, 1853, ref M19/76
or John Surtees Manson, 1853, M19/79
No Catherine Jane Clark though.
Could William Atkinson and William Commons be the same person? Illegitimate but father named on certificate perhaps? :-\
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I tried the certificate search on Sunderland Registrars site, births 1851-60 Searched for surnames starting with COM
no William coming up in the search with a surname that starts with COM during 1851-860,
no registration showing for COM* (with any forename) in 1853
I would have tried searching with just a forename, to see what turned up but at least a partial entry in the surname field is mandatory
Unsure if that means its been missed from the Registrars online database or the entry in the old printed GRO index is an error.
Boo
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Of the 11 names listed two are not on the GRO website, William Commons and Catherine Jane Clark.
Not relevant to the original enquiry, but Catherine Jane is on the GRO website, her christian name spelt Catharine :)
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Well done, Jen.
She is M19/72 in Sunderland!
It does prove there are eleven names indexed on page 311 instead of the usual ten.
John
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Should only be 10 names.
One is
ATKINSON, WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 311
My guess would be that this is an early example of a registration where unmarried parents are both named.
In the "old" printed indexes, that sort of entry is indexed twice, under each parent's surname.
In the "new" GRO index the rule seems to be that where unmarried parents are both named, then the entry is indexed only under the father's surname and then the mother's maiden name will be (correctly) a blank.
That would suggest the father's name was Atkinson and the mother Commons , but you can only be sure by ordering a copy (there are other possible, but less likely, explanations).
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Thank you, its certainly a curly one. From all of your helpful hints, I have sent off a copy of the index to the GRO for advice. I had previously reported the omission to them, but was told their records were correct and no amendment necessary.
I will also order the Atkinson birth certificate too.
The surname shown in all census from 1881 to 1911 is William Common, giving his age estimated to 1853, and his birth shown as Monkwearmouth or Sunderland County Durham.
I have not found him on any census before 1881 .
On his marriage to Jane Ann Wilson on 1st July 1876 he is shown as William Common aged 22 Glassman, and his father William Common, Boilersmith.
Perhaps the Atkinson mentioned may be his mother’s name.
Definitely a puzzle.
Thanks for all the helpful ideas.
Eileen
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I see that I have wondered before whether William Common the glass maker might previously have been William Muirhead. Following work by Kay99 on Joseph Henzell Commons.
What about William Muirhead?
In 1871 in Newcastle he is 17 years old, born Sunderland, son of son of Robert and Mary A.
Robert Muirhead a Flint glass maker.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BX-6Y7
Marriage of Robert Muirhead and Mary Ann Common (father Joseph) in Newcastle in 1854
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFJ9-9P3
So Mary Ann would be the sister of Joseph Henzell Commons born 1837?
Is there any further sign of William Muirhead after 1871? Don't think there is a birth registration.
John
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I see that I have wondered before whether William Common the glass maker might previously have been William Muirhead. Following work by Kay99 on Joseph Henzell Commons.
Ozgrandies, are you the same person as 'grandies' who posted the thread jonw refers to?
topics and profiles now merged
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Hi again,
I did have an earlier account which I was unable to access or restore as I am no longer able to access that email address. If there is a way to combine the accounts I am happy to do so.
To whom should I apply, please?
I have explored several Henzell records wondering perhaps a Henzell - Common marriage connection but so far no success.
Thank you,
Eileen
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Yes Eileen I can merge your two accounts.
If you loose access to your profile you can contact us for help by clicking on the "contact support" button at the bottom of the website.
Regards
Sarah
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That would suggest the father's name was Atkinson and the mother Commons , but you can only be sure by ordering a copy (there are other possible, but less likely, explanations).
Or vice versa, perhaps ? A child with no legitimate father would normally be registered by the mother, in her surname ?
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Yes Eileen I can merge your two accounts.
Thank you Sarah for merging my accounts and posts.
And thank you to all who have given me advice to help me uncover William’s origins.
I have ordered a birth certificate for William Atkinson, and will keep digging for information about the William Muirhead suggestion, with thanks also to jonw65 and kay99 for their help in my earlier enquiry.
Regarding this post, I have emailed GRO with a copy of the relevant page from the civil registration index to see whether they can shed any light on the matter.
Much appreciate the helpful spirit here.
Eileen
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So, we make a little progress!
The William Atkinson birth certificate pdf arrived today by email.
I will see how to attach a copy, but it does show that he was registered William Atkinson, with the father named as William Atkinson and mother Mary Ann Commons.
Though it is noted as Maiden name of mother, it seems that the birth would only be listed under both parents names , if they werent married as explained earlier by AntonyMMM
"My guess would be that this is an early example of a registration where unmarried parents are both named.
In the "old" printed indexes, that sort of entry is indexed twice, under each parent's surname."
At first glance I cannot find a marriage for William Atkinson and Mary Ann Commons.
That leaves the possibilty that they didnt marry, and Mary Ann did in fact later marry Robert Muirhead. This would explain the glassmaker connection suggested by Jonw65.
Yet, if so, he was known as William Muirhead until his marriage when he reverts to William Common, and shows his father as William Common "Boilersmith"
If anyone would like to join me exploring these options I would welcome any input.
Thanks again,
Eileen
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father named as William Atkinson and mother Mary Ann Commons.
Though it is noted as Maiden name of mother, it seems that the birth would only be listed under both parents names , if they weren't married as explained earlier by AntonyMMM
Had they been married the mother's details would have said Mary Ann Atkinson, formerly Commons.
I read that as originally the registrar wrote her name as Mary Ann Atkinson, but as she was not married he realised that wasn't the case, crossed that out and put her surname as Commons.
Though the column says a maiden name should be included, she wasn't married so that didn't apply.
Boo
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He wasn't registered as William ATKINSON - no child has a surname shown on their birth registration before 1969.
He was registered as William
Father - William ATKINSON
Mother - Mary Ann COMMONS
Because the parents aren't married, it was indexed under both surnames.
As pointed out, it appears the registrar began thinking the mother was married, then carried out a numbered correction to delete his error. There is no maiden name shown.
After the changes of the 1874 Act, this type of entry would require both the mother and father to sign as joint informants.
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Hi
Thanks for the update and the chance to see the certificate.
I would say that with mum being Mary Ann it does look promising for the Muirhead connection. But I suppose I would do!
It's a pity that no occupation is given for Mr. Atkinson.
Has the address on the cert yielded any clues to anything? Looks like 24 Rendlesham Street Monkwearmouth?
John
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Hi again, and yes, Monkwearmouth where, the birth was registered is what William Common gives as his birthplace on later census.
The Muirhead connection is looking more promising. William Muirhead seems to disappear after the 1871 census, and William Common appears on the 1881, married and a glass worker.
I am interested to see that Robert Muirhead and Mary Ann also appear to be living apart - though still shown as married.
I am searching for more clues, and sifting through records.
I dont know whether there is anything more I can discover.
I am also looking fo a William Atkinson, Boilersmith (as given on William Commons marriage cert).