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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MrsSelfPub on Tuesday 10 July 18 12:52 BST (UK)
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I am looking for guidance on how to find out what happened to William Frederick Trotter Smith, born illegitimately according to family lore to a barmaid in Gateshead in 1901. He was a bit of a rogue and his military records show this as he was briefly in WW1, re-enlisted in 1920 (only to be discharged due to civil criminal proceedings), re-appears in Shorncliffe (forces camp) Kent in 1930 before serving in India in 1933 (his wife and daughter accompanied him and the toddler died during the crossing - trying to find records of this too).
He must have returned from India and then re-enlisted into the Royal Engineers in 1938 (Service no. now 1887915) but is discharged in 1941. He then disappears and I cannot find him. Family conjecture suggests he was going to start up a woodworking business possibly in the Birmingham area (Moseley) but no record of him can I find. His wife re-marries in 1967 and I don't know if she knew if he had died or if she had been deserted and possibly had the marriage annulled.
Any help or suggestions of how to proceed would be so very much appreciated.
Thank you
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This is William's birth record from the GRO website
SMITH, WILLIAM FREDERICK TROTTER -
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1005
The little dash instead of a mother's maiden name indicates he was illegitimate so family lore is correct there.
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Do you have his date of birth :-\
Ignore that ;D
Service record has it as 2 Mar 1901
ADDED he was Invalided out in 1917 - Mental instability
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Wonder if the Trotter is any indication of who his father was?
When did William marry, to whom and when was his daughter born?
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Hi the only William F T Smith marriage I can locate was Sept qtr 1929 Lewisham 1d 2612 to a Phyllis G Cordock? Possible birth Dec qtr 1908 Woolwich as Phyllis Gwendoline Cordock who possibly remarried as Phyllis G Smith March qtr 1967 Cardiff to James F Cass.
Keyboard86
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What was the name of the toddler?
The death would have been registered under Consular deaths.
I can't see a female birth for Smith mmn Cordock prior to 1939.
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Other details that I have:
Rejoined military in 1920 - probably RAF
Married Jessimond SOUTHERN (b1909 d 2001) in Liverpool, March 1929
Stationed at Shorncliff in Kent and daughter Elizabeth Mary smith born there 23 Sep 1930 (registered at Elham)
Second daughter Anna Christina Smith born at same place 24 Sep 1931 and then they are en route on the Dorsetshire destination India when the baby dies at sea (location I have found co-ordinates is near Jeddah in the Red Sea). I can't find them on conventional passenger lists but found the document on Find My Past on the British Armed Forces records of Overseas Deaths and Burials). These also corroborate the family anecdotal evidence.
They must return from India soon after as twins are born and die in 1934 back at Shorncliffe. I then lose track of him until he pops up again enlisting at Leeds 5 Dec 1939 with the Royal Engineers and a new service number of 1887915. He is discharged in 1941.
It is here that things are hazy. He appears to desert his wife and daughter but is in touch with his mother Mary Ann (not sure of maiden name) who is living in Moseley, Birmingham area. He apparently contacted her to ask to borrow money to set up a woodworking business. He may or may not be living nearby.
And that is the last that any of the (living) family know! All are keen to find out what became of him. He may have died but I cannot find records. His wife may have done something legal to end the marriage as she re-marries in 1967 to Ernest Frederick Gillam.
Any further help or hints to track him down and to find out his mother's maiden name would be welcomed.
Thank you ;D
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So he married as William F rather than William F T:-
Marriages Mar 1929
Smith William F Southern Liverpool 8b 81
Southern Jessimond Smith Liverpool 8b 81
Why are you so certain that this is the correct marriage?
To find out his mother's maiden name you could obtain his birth cert for which I gave details at Reply #1.
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Hi the only William F T Smith marriage I can locate was Sept qtr 1929 Lewisham 1d 2612 to a Phyllis G Cordock? Possible birth Dec qtr 1908 Woolwich as Phyllis Gwendoline Cordock who possibly remarried as Phyllis G Smith March qtr 1967 Cardiff to James F Cass.
Keyboard86
Birmingham Daily Gazette 25 October 1944
Report of bigamy between Corporal William F T Smith age 36 . (wearing Military medal African Star) charged with marrying Mrs Grace E Hayman
Corporals legal wife was Phyllis Gwendoline Smith who he married in 1929 and ceased living together 11 years ago
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OK Birmingham area for this William F T but b c 1908?
Keyboard86
EDIT He was William Frank T Smith b 1908 Lewisham I believe?
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There's a marriage for a Frank Smith to a Grace E Hayman 1940 Bromley.
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This is amazing - I am so grateful to you all :)
Jessimond Southern marriage is definitely correct as it has confirmed to me by her grand-daughter.
He also is known to have lied about his date of birth for military purposes and it is listed as 1904 on one of the military records.
The possibly bigamy/polygamy is interesting. His grand-daughter says that he was stripped of his medals and 'busted down the ranks' at one time. I don't know how best to check out the military records as I only have a basic Ancestry subscription and the occasional use of the local library's FindMyPast. Everything else seems to lead to my credit card!
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This is the slightly annoying thing about later marriages. You don't get the full first names given when there are more than one. This can lead to finding the wrong marriage unless you have definite information from elsewhere.
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Jessimond Southern marriage is definitely correct as it has confirmed to me by her grand-daughter.
Here's a post looking for info. on WFTS, gives date of marriage to Jessimond
.?topic=8826.0
for info.
1945 Liverpool ER Jessimond Smith is living at the same address as four persons with surname Southern (ER shows her parents/sibling at that address 1939-40)
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OK so that we possibly can get rid of the William F T Smith 1908, he was registered March qtr 1908 Lewisham as William Frank Thomas Smith mmn Overton
Keyboard86i
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So he married as William F rather than William F T:-
Marriages Mar 1929
Smith William F Southern Liverpool 8b 81
Southern Jessimond Smith Liverpool 8b 81
marriage cert. available to view on line
William Frederick Smith 25 Bachelor Soldier in His Majesty’s Forces, Ashton under Lyne
Father William Frederick Smith (deceased), Gentleman
Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
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Telling porkies about his father then. I gave his birth details from the GRO at reply#1 which shows that he was illegitimate.
I did wonder if the Trotter name was anything to do with his father, but no way of proving that.
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Oh yes - I think he may have been a bit of a rogue! Thanks for the tip on how the illegitimacy was shown using the '-' :) Does this imply that her maiden name was actually 'Smith' then?
I have laboriously 'walked' through pages of the 1901 census to try and find a barmaid in Gateshead with the name Mary Ann of about the right age. So far I only have someone called 'May Brown' widow of 228 Westbourne Avenue and listed as a barmaid. I may give up on this route...
The rumour is that his mother was a barmaid. The 'Trotter' could well have been a nod to the likely father.
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Illegitimate children tend to be registered with their mother's surname although there may be some cases where that is not so.
As I said earlier, if you really want to know then obtain his birth cert.
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Illegitimate children tend to be registered with their mother's surname although there may be some cases where that is not so.
As I said earlier, if you really want to know then obtain his birth cert.
This is William's birth record from the GRO website
SMITH, WILLIAM FREDERICK TROTTER -
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1005
The little dash instead of a mother's maiden name indicates he was illegitimate so family lore is correct there.
You could order PDF version cost £6, must be made online and include a GRO index reference.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Not sure if this was posted - sorry can't view further details of original image on Fold3 as I don't have a subscription
Edit - is this the same person? Who is the aunt?
William Frederick Smith Age: 19
Birth Date: 2 Mar 1901 Gateshead on Tyne, Durham
Service Date: 18 Mar 1920 Service Number: 340954
Next of Kin: E. Allen
Relation to Airman: Aunt
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I may well get the birth certificate to see the maiden name. I have been following up on the E Allen, Aunt connection but it just doesn't seem to get me any closer to find a 'Mary Ann Allen' born in the area at about the right time.
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I've found the original record, hopefully a snippet will appear! It says Durham after the Tyne bit.
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Girl Guide - thank you for providing the snippet - shame there's no full christian name for his Aunt :-\
I may well get the birth certificate to see the maiden name.
If you do please come back and let us know how you get on, an address might help locate the family on 1901 census this was taken on night of 31st March
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;D
Big thank you to everyone for all the assistance.
Helen
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After a long break, I am back on the trail of WFTS.
Birth certificate obtained. Born 2 March 1901. Birth registered 12th April 1901. Mother - Mary Smith, a barmaid. Address: 228 Westbourne Avenue, Gateshead.
Census was on 31 March at 228 Westbourne Avenue:
1) May Brown, Widow, on the census is actually Mary Smith and told a lie and didn't list the baby
2) May Brown, sheltered 'fellow' barmaid Mary Smith in distress and her baby and lied on the census or they were out on the night of the census
3) Mary Smith moved in with fellow barmaid after the census but where was she on the night of the census with her baby?
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Was Mary Smith the informant on the birth certificate?
Was 228 Westbourne the address of information and of the birth?
There is quite a gap between birth and registration (although within the allowed time)
Interestingly, could this be the same May Brown in 1911, now with a son "W H T Brown" and listed as single?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMH-5L4
Would be worth looking at the original to see if that might be W F T rather than W H T. Bensham, Durham, looks to be a region in Gateshead and Westbourne Avenue is arguably within this area.
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Thanks for your post.
Yes - Mary Smith was the informant and the address is 228 Westbourne Avenue. I think 6 weeks is the limit for registration of the birth so it was just within the frame.
Just had a look at the 1911 Census for May Brown and I think you could be right. One heck of a coincidence, if not! I am hoping some DNA matches on Ancestry will shed more light but there is so much subterfuge that proving hypotheses is going to be tricky. Still, who doesn't love a puzzle? ;)