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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Mart 'n' Al on Monday 09 July 18 13:43 BST (UK)
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The Newcastle Journal - Thursday 09 October 1941, page 2, reports a death, and the date of the associated funeral, but specifies "No mourning or (sic) flowers." I can understand the flowers bit, but not the bit about no mourning. Could someone please explain exactly what the, er, mourners, were being asked not to do?
Martin
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Was it a phrase used to indicate no dark "mourning" clothes? 1941 was a bit late for no "weeping and wailing" which used to happen in the 18th century
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Clothes rationing had started so perhaps they were making sure people didn't use their precious clothes coupons up for the funeral.
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Carole, I had wondered about the clothing, but I'd never heard about funerals and bright clothes until the 1990s. Did it happen in the 1930s? I really don't know. Like most people here, I've probably read a lot of death notices but I've never seen that expression before. The nearest I've ever seen was for my great grandfather, which specified Gentlemen Only.
What do you call people at a funeral who aren't morning? It almost inferred that people would have been glad to see the person go?
The concept of no weeping and wailing does create a wonderful image of people trying to fight back tears, and then becoming overwrought in the emotion of holding them back and then crying over their guilt at weeping and wailing.
Martin
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Med Pat, frequently throughout my childhood my mother used to proudly tell me that she made herself a dress out of blackout material. I sometimes wonder how we won the war because of her profligacy. Your suggestion is interesting but I would need to see many more such requests during and restricted two war years to fully accept it.
Martin
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1941, so wartime, so perhaps concern for those with meagre means while bread-winner serving, so 'no mourning' and 'no flowers' effectively saying
.. "please dont dye your best outfit to black to wear to this funeral, please dont go without or stay away from funeral service and please dont embarass us by wearing mourning outfits or spending money on flowers...."
OR
deceased may have expressed a serious wish for no mourning and no flowers and the notice reflects that express wish.
My grandfather died 1940 and no flowers by request was in the notice. Oral history from my Gran and my parent, aunties, uncles ... no time to dye good outfits only had one set of Sunday best each.....
Grandfather ...he died Friday and buried Monday...
JM
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Searching the Newcastle Evening Chronicle 1940-45 there are a number of notices saying "No mourning no flowers"
Stan
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I am beginning to think that what Carol and Pat suggested initially might be right, if this request is limited to the war and just after.
Martin
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I have specified that I ma just to be disposed of (legally of course) so no mourning effectively. Could it be something like that?
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My godfather died in 1998 ,his will specified that no women should go to his funeral.
It was a long held belief of his that only men were strong enough to mourn at a funeral.
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I'm going to specify no royalty or media celebrities at my funeral.
Hordes of weeping women more than welcome.
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I'm going to specify no royalty or media celebrities at my funeral.
Hordes of weeping women more than welcome.
If the Duchess of Sussex wanted to go,you wouldn't be able to stop her 8)
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I am sure that it refers to the clothing. This book was written in the 60s -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ill-Dress-You-Mourning-Extraordinary/dp/0671542850 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ill-Dress-You-Mourning-Extraordinary/dp/0671542850)
Regards
Chas
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I've just searched the so-called advanced search on the British News Archive, for "No mourners", but it ignores short words. I was hoping to find the earliest occurrence.
I really think that they should have been clearer in 1941, to avoid any upset and embarrassment! How do you tell if somebody wearing a black office suit was mourning or not?
Martin
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I've just searched the so-called advanced search on the British News Archive, for "No mourners", but it ignores short words. I was hoping to find the earliest occurrence.
I really think that they should have been clearer in 1941, to avoid any upset and embarrassment! How do you tell if somebody wearing a black office suit was mourning or not?
Your original query was about "no mourning", not "no mourners", and that may make a difference...
As to the earliest use of the term, the online Oxford English Dictionary gives an example from c1450 of "blake mournyng"; without the black, there's another from 1561.
This is at http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/122947 - the entry is headed "mourning, n.1" and this is definition 6a. It seems you need a library card log-in to access it, but there are no doubt other online dictionaries which have something similar.
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I'm going to specify no royalty or media celebrities at my funeral.
Hordes of weeping women more than welcome.
If the Duchess of Sussex wanted to go,you wouldn't be able to stop her 8)
If it's my funeral, I won't be in a position to stop anyone.
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Googling "No mourning or flowers" brings up many results some in the last few years.
E.g.
WILSON Ursula Mary Peacefully at home on December 12, 2014? aged 100. Wife of the late Gerald Wilson. Much loved mother, grandmother and great-grandmother. Service of Thanksgiving at All Saints Church, Manfield at 2.30pm on Monday, January 4, 2016. No mourning or flowers at her request.
Published in The Northern Echo on 17th December 2015
Stan
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Arthur k said "Your original query was about "no mourning", not "no mourners", and that may make a difference..."
My error!
Martin
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Bizarrely, having started this thread, saying I'd never come across the 'No mourning' concept,then just a few hours later, researching a totally different family, for a friend, I came across the same thing.
Liverpool Echo - Thursday 12 January 1939, page 7, Machray.
Only this time it was long before the war started. So, how do you 'not mourn' at a funeral.
Martin
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I thought that it was common for black arm bands to be worn over ordinary clothes ….
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Ideally I don't want an actual funeral service, flowers, people dressed in black or any other colour. I just want to be carted off (not necessarily in a cart) -- to the local Crem - with no fuss at all.
I'm not sure if 'no funeral service' is allowed though.
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So, how do you 'not mourn' at a funeral.
No-one's asking people not to mourn. As others have pointed out, and as the OED definition shows, 'mourning' in this context is a noun referring to the manner of dress. It presumably means that people are welcome to come to the funeral without worrying about whether they have the black clothes that have often been expected.
Here are some online dictionary entries, though not as full than the OED:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/mourning
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mourning
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mourning
https://chambers.co.uk/search/?query=mourning&title=21st
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Thanks Arthur, I'd never heard of that until 1995. I thought it was a modern trendy thing. Thanks.
Martin
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Ideally I don't want an actual funeral service, flowers, people dressed in black or any other colour. I just want to be carted off (not necessarily in a cart) -- to the local Crem - with no fuss at all.
I'm not sure if 'no funeral service' is allowed though.
My friend's husband requested no service, flowers etc. She said she waved him off in the undertakers' vehicle and he returned home in an urn.....she calls it a sweetie jar. She wants the same when it is her time.
It can be done.
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Nanny Jan -- thank you SO much for this information. That is really good to know and I appreciate you responding.
Thank you again.
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A lot of people choose not to have funerals these days! I would like to have my "funeral" before I die, when I can hear all the wonderful things my family and friends are going to say about me! 😜😜 Then we can all sit around, have a few wines, tell our stories and say our goodbyes!
Seriously though, I will be having a private family and friends only funeral, I have everything all organised, Funeral Insurance, the Church readings, some photo's, the music, the invitations, what I want to wear, (which is my all time favourite dress), and a few personal things I want to take with me in my coffin! I will be cremated! My ashes are to be scattered in a river which actually flows through all the places I have lived and loved since I was a child! I will end up in a harbour where I used to swim and waterski!
Oops - I forgot to add - flowers for both events!
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jaybeinz -- that is wonderful and I do congratulate you on having it all sorted.
I have discussed this with my husband, but he won't do it (yet) -- I just think it makes sense and it takes all the pressure off family members having to make decisions about everything after the death.
I think it's important --- my husband is a 'lapsed' Roman Catholic from an Irish family and if he leaves this mortal world before me I genuinley won't know what to do about funeral arrangements.
Well done you for overcoming all the hurdles.
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An informative website, in particular the Direct Cremation section.
naturaldeath.org
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Thank you Jebber -- I will take a look.
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Ideally I don't want an actual funeral service, flowers, people dressed in black or any other colour. I just want to be carted off (not necessarily in a cart) -- to the local Crem - with no fuss at all.
I'm not sure if 'no funeral service' is allowed though.
You don't have to have a 'funeral service' at the crematorium if you don't want to.
For a recent sad bereavement where the family knew that a gathering in an unfamiliar building with a formal service wouldn't 'suit' the person who'd died, we arranged a 'private cremation' attended only by the funeral director.
We then had a 'celebration' of the life led by our very much loved family member, attended by lots of friends, colleagues and relatives, in a local pub/restaurant, where all the family shared short memories of him, attendees spoke of how they had known him, we were surrounded by pictures of him through the years, as well as some videos, and we had a sad but ultimately very celebratory evening, which reflected the person he was.
I hope he would have enjoyed himself, he always was a generous and thoughtful host.
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IgorStrav -- what a lovely message --- everyone clearly thought an awful lot of the gentleman who sadly died.
Thank you so much.
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Thank you, Pennines.
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Here's the full OED definition for 'mourning' in this context:
6.a. The dress or customary clothes (in Western society usually black) worn by mourners. Also: the black draperies placed on furniture, the walls of buildings, etc., on occasions of mourning.
Lots of examples quoted from c1450 onwards, here are the last 3:
1900 L. F. Baum Wonderful Wizard of Oz xxiii. 254 Aunt Em will surely think something dreadful has happened to me, and that will make her put on mourning.
1978 V. Cronin Catherine xiii. 145 Catherine hurriedly put on a black dress, for in order to associate herself in people's minds with the late Empress she still wore mourning.
2000 Guardian 22 May 20/2 When Bertie was killed in the trenches in 1917, they could not afford to buy mourning.
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My daughter's mother in law died 2 weeks ago. It had all been pre arranged with the family and undertaker that there would be no funeral.
This is how it worked. She passed away suddenly but peacefully at home on the Friday. The undertaker took her to their funeral parlour within a few hours. On Monday there she was taken to the local crematorium. The undertaker told my daughter, son in law and his 89 year old aunt (sister to the deceased) the time of the cremation. The three of them stood just outside the crematorium and as the hearse drew up it stopped and the driver took of his cap in acknowledgement. No mourning or flowers in the accepted sense.
Later that afternoon we had a small family gathering at my daughter's home with eats, including Strawberry Tarts which were her favourite. My son in law proposed a toast to his late mum. The conversation was all about our memories of her and I think it helped our 2 grandsons aged 15 and 12 to talk about their Nana and remember the happy times. It was very emotional and moving.
It really did take the pressure of the immediate family. We are now all in the process of arranging something similar for when our time comes.
Dorrie
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Dorrie -- that sounds perfect. I hate the thought of the family having all the pressure associated with arranging a funeral etc.,
Thank you so very much for sharing this story.
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You know, a funeral is part of the grieving process and has been for all of recorded history. People need a chance to say goodbye. Whether to bless them, or curse them, it helps those left behind move on in their grieving.
Everyone must make their own decisions about their lives and hopefully about their deaths. For me, I want a funeral. But the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darknesses will be optional.
Regards
Chas
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Chas -- I understand exactly where you are coming from and my husband is horrified at my wish for no funeral.
It is difficult -- but I do think it's important that everything is sorted out BEFOREHAND, whilst we are healthy and emotion is not interfering -- as if we wait until a death occurs - that's when it's very difficult for a family, having to make decisions and arrangements at a really sad time.
Cheerful subject!!
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You know, a funeral is part of the grieving process and has been for all of recorded history. People need a chance to say goodbye. Whether to bless them, or curse them, it helps those left behind move on in their grieving.
Everyone must make their own decisions about their lives and hopefully about their deaths. For me, I want a funeral. But the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darknesses will be optional.
Regards
Chas
I totally agree Chas, it's just that a 'funeral' can be any number of things, not just a gathering in a church or a crematorium, although of course that is fine if it suits you and the family.
When discussing our loss with the funeral director, she mentioned that one of her clients had been particularly fond of the sea. And that the family had therefore decided that they would have his ashes put into some fireworks, which they would then fire into the heavens at a beach gathering for family and friends. At the time my daughter and I thought that was strange, but thinking about it subsequently, I have come to see that it is absolutely beautiful in its own way. But only if it suits you.
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My granddaughter (now 18years) and I were discussing this early last year. She rather fancied making me into fireworks, son thought sending me into outer space as I always had an interest in it. Me I think I will be cremated and fancy ashes to the wind. I will be free to travel wherever I want. But I could change my mind many times between now and then. Would want a celebration of life too.
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My mother discussed in great detail with me her wishes for her funeral some time before she died. She laid out the programme for the service, specifying which tunes she wanted for each hymn and which readings specific people would read, even down to my nephew playing the organ. She wanted lots of flowers! It seemed to give her some comfort to do this and we were happy to carry out her instructions. My aunt, on the other hand, well into her 80s when her husband died, simply said, "We never talked about it" when I asked what kind of a funeral we should arrange for him.
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Maybe it's just don't be sad, turn up in bright clothes and don't mourn my death, celebrate my life. ;D
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Mark, I think that that is correct. I just never heard of happy funerals until about 1995. Perhaps I had a sheltered life.
Martin
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I know at some football matches now instead of a minutes silence they have a minutes applause.