RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Anglesey => Wales => Anglesey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: AnotherWhiteRabbit on Sunday 01 July 18 14:42 BST (UK)
-
Looking for info on the Thomas family of Llannerchymedd and Almwch in Anglesey.
Robert b 1826 M Anne b 1827
At Amlwch
Children
William 1849
John 1854
Robert 1858
Mary 1851
Ellen 1862
Catherine 1868
Owen 1872 m Thirza Jane Pearce 20.6.1896
Robert John 1882
I’m researching my family history for a novel so any connections and or info would be gratefully received. They lived at Rhodogeido
-
Hi, Welcome to RootsChat.
They were married on 14 Jul 1845 at Llechcynfarwy Church:
Robert Thomas, f, b, Shoemaker of Llanerchymedd, son of William Thomas, labourer and Ann Jones, f, s, Llanerchymedd, dau. of Owen Jones. labourer. Findmypast has the image of the marriage certificate (but the parish is wrongly transcribed as Llanynghenedl). They both signed by mark, the witnesses were (unclear?) Jones and Hugh Prichard.
I have found details from the birth registrations of some of the children you mention, all registerd with father Robert Thomas, mother Ann Jones and born at Llanerchymedd:
Ann - 30 Apr 1846; William - 29 Nov 1848; Mary - 14 Mar 1851; John - 8 Dec 1853; Robert - 20 Mar 1856; Ellen - 3 Jun 1862; Owen - 12 Oct 1864; Catherine - 29 Dec 1867.
I will look again for the two later children.
Do you already have some census information? Is there anything specific you wish to know?
-
Thank you so much, that is a wonderful response. You’ve helped enormously.
I have found them in the census but I was trying to find out the occupations.
Also there is a mystery. On the son Owen’s marriage certificate Robert is called ‘Transfield’ and occupation farmer. If you can shed light on that I’d love to know what you find.
-
Looking for info on the Thomas family of Llannerchymedd and Almwch in Anglesey.
Robert b 1826 M Anne b 1827
At Amlwch
Children
Catherine 1868
Owen 1872 m Thirza Jane Pearce 20.6.1896
Robert John 1882
It looks like Owen 1872 and Robert John 1882 are not the children of Robert Thomas and Ann Jones. The 1881 census (RG11, 5591, 43, 13) shows the family at 4 British School Terrace (Llanerchymedd I think) - Robert 53, shoemaker, born Rhodogeidio; Ann, 53, b. Llanerchymedd; Catherine, 13, dau b. Llanerchymedd; Owen, 9, b. Llanerchymedd. Owen's relationship to Robert is given as 'nice', perhaps niece is intended, this has been amended in the transcription to 'Nice Nephew!'
Given Ann's age it seems unlikely she is the mother of Robert John b. 1882. The 1891 census (RG12, 4676, 120, 20) confirms this, he is the only child living with Robert and Ann and he is described as a grandson.
-
My husband spotted that Owen did not fit with the picture but Robert being a grandson answers the question we had.
Thank you very much.
Owen, being my direct ancestor, is now the mystery.
His father being Transfield Thomas I think. His mother is unknown.
I’ve tried to find any trace of a Transfield Thomas but with no luck. The marriage certificate is not that clear.
Thanks again, you’ve been a great help. If you can trace TT I’d be thrilled.
-
Owen, being my direct ancestor, is now the mystery.
His father being Transfield Thomas I think. His mother is unknown.
I’ve tried to find any trace of a Transfield Thomas but with no luck. The marriage certificate is not that clear.
Can you scan the marriage certificate and attach it? Perhaps someone can decipher Owen's father's name.
I see Owen married in Liverpool in 1896 (W. Derby 8b 695), do you know where he was for the 1891 census?
-
The marriage certificate would not scan well but I will try. Transfield Thomas is, however, on the Banns 1811-1921.
No sign of Owen on 1891 census, he’d gone dark!
There is a legend in the family that he was illegitimate which is what I am keeping in the back of my mind. Is Transfield a made up name I’m thinking? It’s such an unusual name.
-
Owen's relationship to Robert is given as 'nice', perhaps niece is intended, this has been amended in the transcription to 'Nice Nephew!'
The welsh for nephew is Nai - perhaps nice was a mistranscription/mishearing?
-
Owen, being my direct ancestor, is now the mystery.
His father being Transfield Thomas I think. His mother is unknown.
I’ve tried to find any trace of a Transfield Thomas but with no luck. The marriage certificate is not that clear.
Can you scan the marriage certificate and attach it? Perhaps someone can decipher Owen's father's name.
I see Owen married in Liverpool in 1896 (W. Derby 8b 695), do you know where he was for the 1891 census?
definitely looks like Transfield on the marriage registration on Ancestry
-
That makes perfect sense.
Nani - Nephew but why nothing else on him?
Just a thought, on one census he is entered as Awen.
-
Just a bad transcription - clearly Owen on the image
-
Found him in 1891 I think - Owen Thomas, Boarder, 19, Coal miner, 118 Parr Stocks Road, St Helens. His place of birth is Beaumaris, Anglesey but the word Beaumaris looks like it was added later (RG12, 3024, 96, 27). He lives on the same road in 1901 and 1911. He is also there in the 1939 register and gives his dob as 12 Nov 1871.
I've searched Anglesey birth registrations using this date without finding him. As you suggest, he may be illegitimate, but why invent such an unusual name for his father?
-
definitely looks like Transfield on the marriage registration on Ancestry
Agree - no need for a scan
-
Oh my goodness well done.
What a find. And Beaumaris fits the story that I’m researching! The story is he was the illegitimate son of someone high up in Anglesey living at Beaumaris.
Can we find anything about his mother?
You are a star.
-
Owen, being my direct ancestor, is now the mystery.
His father being Transfield Thomas I think. His mother is unknown.
I’ve tried to find any trace of a Transfield Thomas but with no luck.
Pure luck - but I think I have found Owen Thomas's father. While looking through Llanerchymedd baptisms for the children of Robert and Ann Thomas I found the baptism on 10 Jul 1865 of Sarah Margaret Huckley daughter of Dransfield & Catherine Huckley, mariner, Liverpool.
Dransfield Buckley married Catherine Thomas in Liverpool O,N,D qtr 1859 and Buckley is the correct surname according to most of the records I've seen. Their family can be found in Liverpool in 1871 and 1881 (Catherine b. Llanerchymedd, Dransfield b. Todmorden) while in 1891 Catherine is with Dransfield's sister Margaret Martha Buckley in Halifax.
Catherine's death was registered on Anglesey - Catherine Buckley, 14 Sep 1900, Llanerchymedd age 68, wife of mariner Deansfield Buckley. Informant H.H. Buckley, son, 17 Wyatt St, Kirkdale, Liverpool.
I think Catherine Thomas and Robert Thomas are brother and sister, children of William Thomas and Mary Roberts. Their baptisms are shown in Rhodogeidio (Ceidio)/Llanerchymedd parish records:
Robert, 14 May 1826, son of William & Mary Thomas, Old Chapel, labourer (Rhodogeidio PR)
Catherine, 5 Nov 1832, dau of William & Mary Thomas, Parish of Ceidio, labourer (Llanerchymedd PR). Also John (1823) & Mary (1829).
William Thomas and Mary Roberts were married 3 Apr 1820 in Llanerchymedd and William Thomas was buried 7 Oct 1833 age 32
Is this is the rest of the family in 1841?
HO107, 1358, 11, 10, 6 Walk Row, Llanerchymedd, Llechcynfarwydd
Mary Roberts, 35, (surname Roberts retained under the old Welsh patronymic system), Ind
John " , 15, Shoe Ap
Robert " , 15, Shoe Ap
Catherine " , 8
All born Anglesey.
There must be some doubt whether Catherine was Owen's mother given that he was known as Owen Thomas rather than Owen Buckley and was raised separately from Catherine and Dransfield's other children.
-
Owen Thomas was my grandfather. Owen Thomas was born out of wedlock to Ann Thomas in Amlych. His mother refused to name the father on the birth certificate.
He was named John. According to my Uncle Will, who lived at Bryn Teg, Llanfair, the father of the child was originally from Aberystwyth. At the time I was only in my teens and Will's generation were never forthcoming on such matters in any detail.
According to the Family Bible which is in my possession his date of birth was 22 September 1871. However, according to the registration he was born at “Tai Club Mawr” Llanerchymedd, Amlwch on 21 November 1871.
He was moved (transferred?) to another part of the family and his name changed to Owen because they already had a family member named Owen (which might be the Owen referred to in the 1872 record). He only discovered his real name was John when he received his postwar credits.
He moved to St Helens to work as a miner. Initially he lived in Parr Stocks Road on the corner of Morgan Street where my father (the fourth of his six children) lived. Eventually they moved to 34 Parr Stocks Road, (opposite the Fire Station). He died in 1947.
His wife, Thirza Jane Pearce was born in the Isle of Man on 22 December 1868 where her father worked as an engineer on the Laxey Wheel having emigrated from Cornwall. We understand he was born in Rebbulus. I have many nineteenth century photos from the area which show the family resemblance. I also have a picture of the cottage in the Isle of Man where Owen and Thirza went fishing each year.
I also have a photo of a family gathering , including my four year old self, at Grandma's 80th birthday. It includes uncle Richard who, according to my aunty Daisy was the spitten image of Owen. Daisy's birth name was Thirza after her mother. Grandma was very frail as she had a broken hip.
We have always preserved the name 'Owen' in the family. My brother's middle name is Owen, Daisy's son's middle name is Owen, My son's name is Owen and my eldest grandson's name is Owen.
I hope the above is helpful
-
Thank you very much for getting in touch. May I ask if you are happy to let me have those details, it would help enormously?
-
What specific details are you looking for?
-
I can’t find out how he fits into the family so I would like his mother and father’s name and definite place of birth. Anything else you know would help.
-
As stated John/Owen didn't fit into the family unless his mother Ann (he was illegitimate) was related to Robert and Anne Thomas which appears likely. If either of them had a sister or niece named Ann it could explain the discrepancies. Apart from tracing anyone living in the area in 1871 who originated from Aberystwyth everything I know is in my original email. According to uncle Will he knew who Owen's father was but Owen never knew, so he must have been around for some time. A census check may throw some light on it.
I'm not certain that John's name was changed immediately to Owen or whether the 1872 Owen's arrival led to the change. I'm currently trying to trace John/Owen's postwar credits to see if that throws any light on the subject.
I did visit Amwych in the late 1950's and from memory I think there was a connection to a family called Starkey. Unfortunately, the only thing I remember is that one of the family committed suicide by jumping into the bay/harbour soon afterwards. I seem to remember reference to the Hughes family who ran a riding school at Rhosneiger as being distant relatives.
-
Thank you very much, I will look at all my notes tomorrow and see how that all fits in. I have found some intriguing stuff. The family rumour is that Owen was fathered by a member of the artistocracy! I’m still working on that thread. You have helped me for which I am grateful and if I can help you please let me know.
Incidentally, I had heard about the riding school. I was told my great grandmother ran it but she came from the Isle of Man, not Anglesey.
-
Personally I think the aristocracy angle was a way of covering up the shame of having an illegitimate birth in the family. I think the Aberystwyth path is the better way to discover the truth.
-
Owen and Thirza were married at Church Church, Kensington in 1896. I've got the exact date somewhere and will try to dig it out.
-
Yes I have that info, I have the marriage certificate and when I saw his father’s name entered as Dransfield Thomas I suspected something was wrong. How did you find out that his Mum was Ann?
-
I have found details from the birth registrations of some of the children you mention, all registered with father Robert Thomas, mother Ann Jones and born at Llanerchymedd:
Ann - 30 Apr 1846; …..
I think it is very probable that Ann, eldest child of Robert Thomas and Ann Jones, is the mother of John Thomas - who was later renamed Owen.
Ann's baptism took place on 2 May 1846 (Llannerchymedd PR p43, 337), the address mentioned being Tai Club Mawr, Llannerchymedd, parish of Amlwch. In 1851 she is living in Wellington St. Amlwch with her mother's father Owen Jones and his wife Ann. In 1861 she may be a servant age 15 in Water St. Amlwch. I haven't found her in 1871.
thomasfamilyhistory mentioned that John/Owen's birth registration had the address Tai Club Mawr and the date, 21 Nov 1871, was almost identical to that in the 1939 register for Owen Thomas in St Helens (12 Nov 1871).
Robert Thomas and his wife had a son Owen b. 12 Oct 1864 who died 12 Jul 1865. It looks as if they became responsible for raising Ann's son John and chose to rename him Owen after their own son. (Calling Owen their nephew in 1881 was presumably meant to hide his illegitimacy).
I'll see if I can find what became of Ann after John/Owen's birth.
-
Very interesting as my research doesn't throw up a daughter called Ann at all. From the census of 1851 I have Robert and Ann(e)s children as:
William 1849
John 1854
Robert 1858
Mary 1851
Ellen 1862
Catherine 1868
This makes me think Ann was brought up, as you say, by Robert's brother Owen. Robert brought up her illegitimate son too, renaming him. I have no record though of Owen being called John. I'm even wondering if Ann was illegitimate, apparently in Wales children like that were passed around families to obfuscate matters.
What you have written makes complete sense regarding family set up and Owen's illegitimacy.
He travels to Liverpool when he's about 19 and marries Thirza there. On he is marriage certificate his father is written as Dransfield Thomas. Dransfield Buckley was married to Robert's daughter Catherine and effectively lends Owen his name to put on the certificate.
However, Dransfield Buckley is the real character in this, a really bad egg!
-
Very interesting as my research doesn't throw up a daughter called Ann at all.
This makes me think Ann was brought up, as you say, by Robert's brother Owen..... I'm even wondering if Ann was illegitimate...
Just to clarify, Ann's birth registration has her born 30 Apr 1846, the daughter of Robert Thomas and Ann (maiden name) Jones - there is no indication that she was illegitimate. As mentioned previously, Robert Thomas and Ann Jones married on 14 Jul 1845 at Llechcynfarwy Church. Ann's father was named as Owen Jones, labourer.
In the 1851 census Ann Thomas is not living with her parents Robert and Ann and their two younger children, William and Mary, but with her grandfather Owen Jones, her mother's father. Given Mary's age at the time - 3 weeks - they were probably looking after her temporarily. Both families are in Wellington St. Llannerchymedd.
-
Thank you very much, as always tremendously helpful.
-
With regards to Dransfield Thomas. Bearing in mind that registration in Churches was carried out by ministers rather than trained registrars it could have been a clerical error. The minister who signed my own marriage certificate actually put my brother's name down as my father instead of my father's name!!!!!!!! Fortunately, the actual original certificate was lost when there was a fire at the registration office in Brougham Terrace was burned down in the 1970's (It wasn't me!!!!)
-
I don't know if this is of relevance but I just came across it.
www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/surnames.stansfield/70/mb.ashx
Dransfield is a Yorkshire name. The Kirkdale reference is interesting. My wife was brought up in Orwell Road in Kirkdale. Her mother's maiden name was Hughes.
-
Thank you, yes I found that too.
-
I have searched the local deaths certificate and come up with some surprising results which shows some memories have been at fault. Owen Thomas was buried in St Helens Cemetary on 22/5/41 aged 69. Thirza Jane Thomas was buried in the same plot on 24/11/55. In the same plot were Abram Pearce was buried 18/3/39 (57) and Sussana Ward was buried on 28/9/49 aged 76. I know the plot number and hope to visit it over the weekend. This suggests an 1871 date of birth for John/Owen.
-
Regarding the Riding School. If your great gran was born in the Isle of Man, where Thirza Jane was born, it could have been her sister. What was her maiden name?
-
I don’t know, it was family legend so it may not even have actually been my great grandmother, I was just always told the family had links to horses in the Isle of Man but mostly Ireland, possibly racing stables.
-
I have found out that Susanna Ward lived with Thirza Jane at 34 Parr Stocks Road. She is some kind of relative, again possibly sister. I do have a pix of her somewhere in the house.(incentive for an early spring clean).
-
I believe I have reached the definitive conclusion about John/Owen Thomas. His mother was Ann Thomas, second child and eldest daughter of Robert and Anne Thomas. Ann gave birth to a child on 22 September 1871 named him John but did not register him until November of that year.
Early in 1872 he became part of her parents' household and was renamed Owen for one of two reasons (a) Robert and Annie's eldest child was named John and (b) they had lost a young child in the mid-1860's whose name was Owen and they renamed John in his memory. The name of the child's father is unknown but oral evidence states that he was originally from Aberystwyth and stayed in Yns Mon for some years. Throughout his upbringing Owen believed his mother was his aunt Ann. There is a reference that Owen was Robert and Anne's grandson.
Owen moved to Liverpool in the 1890's and married Thirza Jane Pearce in 1896. He had seven children, one of whom was my father Henry Thomas.
This raises a problem for other people who believe Owen was their grandfather. There is no evidence to suggest that Owen fathered a child outside his marriage to Thirza. Therefore, anyone who believes he was their grandfather is mistaken. My own conclusion is that the Owen referred to is another member of the Thomas family (possibly a cousin). This will require further research into the history of Robert and Anne's family.
I have also concluded that Ann never married. In the culture of the time it would not have been acceptable to expect a non-family member to take responsibility for another man's child, especially as this may have revealed who the child's real father was. In addition, there was a culture of shame attached to illegitimacy at the time.
My intention is to visit Yns Mon this year to carry out further research.
-
Thank you that is very helpful. I will focus on Ann now that you have helped me find her, she was the missing piece of the puzzle, up until now I was working on a false lead but the puzzle fits together much better, it is her story that I will pursue.