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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 03:51 BST (UK)

Title: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 03:51 BST (UK)
Hi

I need some help to deciphering the middle name of the father on the attached birth certificate.
It looks as if it is underlined, which is odd, the other 'y' & 'g' endings on the document do not trail backwards to underline so its not that I don't think.

But any ideas would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 04:08 BST (UK)
It may be an idea to type all what you have to help others to work it out?

Name/date/place etc. as it's not too easy to read & saves time  ;)

Looks like Agoussy or similar but very difficult to work out?

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 04:12 BST (UK)
Thanks for the tip!

15th October 1844 at 9 Lower Boston Place - Elizabeth - daughter of Edward (?) Horwood - mother - Sophia Horwood formerly Granger - Labourer.

Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Kay99 on Wednesday 13 June 18 04:37 BST (UK)
I wondered if the middle name ended in croft??   :-\

Kay
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 13 June 18 04:58 BST (UK)
I wondered if the middle name ended in croft??   :-\

Kay

Could be a long s ... so maybe ending in ass, oss or ess?  :-\ After the word looks like a number 9.  :-\

You can always order one of the other children's birth certificates in the hope that whatever the word is is also on their certificates.

Having a quick look at his marriage and a couple of censuses, there is no middle name given for Edward ...
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:13 BST (UK)
Thanks for your thoughts Kay99 & Ruskie.

The 'f' in Fifteenth looks like the 3rd letter from the end but I also though the old fashioned double ss was possible.

Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:17 BST (UK)
After the word looks like a number 9.  :-\

Ruskie,

I pondered over that & wondered why the name was underlined, not something I've seen (not to say it isn't) but then my guess was ending in either 'y' or 'g' i.e. a long under stroke (not sure what that would be called) but rather than underlined  :-\

Edit, favouring a 'y' if last 2 letters are 'ss'!

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:22 BST (UK)
I don't know Annie.  :-\

If the word ends in an s, I can't think of any name that would end in an ..'sg'. Y - maybe?

The underline (if it is an underline) is odd ....

I wonder if asking the GRO for a clearer copy is possible (as it is for illegible Scottish records from SP)? At the very least they may be able to tell you what is on the original?  :-\
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:26 BST (UK)
I looked at my own docs. (ones with a middle name) & none are underlined although different Parishes etc.  :-\

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:27 BST (UK)
I wonder if asking the GRO for a clearer copy is possible (as it is for illegible Scottish records from SP)? At the very least they may be able to tell you what is on the original?  :-\

Good idea!

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 05:33 BST (UK)
Thanks again for your thoughts.

Its very frustrating as his middle name may give a clue as to his grandparents as I have a brick wall there on both sides.

I think I shall have to get another birth certificate.  I will ask about a better copy as well.

The underlining is very odd.  The other 'y's and 'g's dont have a backline, though he does use a forward line on his 'd's.
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:00 BST (UK)
After more scrutiny  ::)...

The 'y' in Formerly has no comparison i.e. I would file my suggestion of the last letter/number under 'B' for Bucket!  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:03 BST (UK)
I think I shall have to get another birth certificate.

And hope his middle name is in full & not just an initial!!!

Annie
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:10 BST (UK)
Quote
And hope his middle name is in full & not just an initial!!!

Even an initial would help with this!
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: CarolA3 on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:16 BST (UK)
To me, it looks like 'AGNESS' followed by a '9'.

A quick search on RC brings up a number of threads involving the surname AGNESS in Essex and Suffolk.  Does Edward have any links to that area?

The '9' would probably relate to the registrar's note in the right-hand margin, indicating an alteration or addition to the register entry (hence the underlining?).  Sadly I can't interpret that note.

Carol
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:19 BST (UK)
I compared the 'O' in October to the Inital of the middle name which looks to be 'A' & the 2nd letter is akin to the 'g' in Granger ?

Annie

Add...Crossing posts Carol but that looks a good call!
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:24 BST (UK)
Thanks CarolA3 - that is very interesting.

I had thought Agness as well but thought it cant be, its a man! I didnt think of it being a surname! And the last digit confused me as well.  But if its a reference to the registrars note it makes a lot more sense!

I really don't know where they came from before London.

Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: matthewj64 on Wednesday 13 June 18 06:52 BST (UK)

Could be a long s ... so maybe ending in ass, oss or ess?  :-\ After the word looks like a number 9.  :-\

You can always order one of the other children's birth certificates in the hope that whatever the word is is also on their certificates.

Having a quick look at his marriage and a couple of censuses, there is no middle name given for Edward ...

I agree that it looks like a 9 - there are a few in the image to compare with, plus there's a space after the word. There's no middle name used in his marriage or baptism records either. To me it looks like Agness 9, maybe a miswritten address?

M
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: CarolA3 on Wednesday 13 June 18 08:01 BST (UK)
To me, it looks like 'AGNESS' followed by a '9'.

A quick search on RC brings up a number of threads involving the surname AGNESS in Essex and Suffolk.  Does Edward have any links to that area?

The '9' would probably relate to the registrar's note in the right-hand margin, indicating an alteration or addition to the register entry (hence the underlining?).  Sadly I can't interpret that note.
To me it looks like Agness 9, maybe a miswritten address?

It can't be an address in that position.

Carol
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jennifer c on Wednesday 13 June 18 08:49 BST (UK)
No middle name on marriage certificate,father Samuel a Butler. Marriage in Paddington 1841

Jennifer
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: shanghaipanda on Wednesday 13 June 18 08:53 BST (UK)
There is another thread about this family (although slightly later members) - not sure if you have seen it, but it might help in some way. 


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=499377.0
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jennifer c on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:02 BST (UK)
Both baptized st Marylebone church Westminster
Edward no middle name Horwood parents Samuel and Elizabeth born 9/9/1813 baptized 11/12/1813
Father Servant

Sophia born 28/7/1822 bapt 20/8/1822 parents Thomas And Ann

There are workhouse and lunacy records if someone can access them.

Jennifer
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:04 BST (UK)
I agree with Carol - it appears to be Agness, underlined because it is an amendment.

The amendment is numbered 9, which is cross referenced to the margin note “Nine OB” i.e. OB (denoting the registrar) has initialled amendment 9.
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jennifer c on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:11 BST (UK)
Marriage same church Samuel Horwood and Betsy West 5/1/1801

Jennifer
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jennifer c on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:28 BST (UK)
1841 census in Boston Place under Howard, both born in the county
1851 census Walmer Street Edward born Crescent Middx and Sophia born marylebone.

Jennifer
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jennifer c on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:34 BST (UK)
Sophia's mother Ann née Edmiston died in 1832 father remarried 1837 to Sarah Thomas.

On 1841 census gt North Street
1851 census 22 North Street born London occ. Baker

Jennifer
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: CarolA3 on Wednesday 13 June 18 09:44 BST (UK)
I agree with Carol - it appears to br Agness, underlined because it is an amendment.

The amendment is numbered 9, which is cross referenced to the margin note “Nine OB” i.e. OB (denoting the registrar) has initialled amendment 9.

Glad you could read the note avm, it was too small and fuzzy for me ;D

Carol
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: arthurk on Wednesday 13 June 18 10:42 BST (UK)
I agree with the amendment explanation. Mistakes in registers are supposed to be corrected with a numeral in the entry, and the same number in words in the margin, with signature or initials. The sequence of numbers runs all the way through the register book.

In this case, the error seems to be the surname AGNESS, which has been underlined and corrected to HORWOOD. This is confirmed by checking for other entries on the same page - the easiest way is at FreeBMD.

Elizabeth's entry is indexed in Dec qtr 1844, Marylebone, ref. 1/169. FreeBMD shows 8 entries with that reference, one of whom is Sarah AGNESS. It therefore seems likely that the surname has been copied in error from one entry to the next, or possibly the Horwood and Agness informants visited the registrar together and he got their names mixed up.

Either way, you can be confident that Agness is not part of Edward's name.
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: CarolA3 on Wednesday 13 June 18 10:57 BST (UK)
That's brilliant Arthur - the answer was under our collective nose all the time, we just weren't looking in the right direction :D

Jillieh it looks like you'll have to cancel your trip to East Anglia :'(

Carol

Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Wednesday 13 June 18 11:43 BST (UK)
For confirmation, you could always look at the births of the other 3 children, re the 1851 census, Edward, Sophia or William.

Malky
Title: Re: Fathers middle name on Birth Cert - help needed
Post by: jillieh on Wednesday 13 June 18 22:03 BST (UK)
What a lot happened over night! (I'm in New Zealand)

Thank you all so much for your time and efforts and I think you have cracked it Arthurk!

And yes Jennifer, Edward is the son of Samuel Horwood & Betsy West & died in the Middlesex Asylum in 1875.

Thanks again  :)