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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Alma54 on Sunday 03 June 18 12:17 BST (UK)
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Hi, I wonder if any kind people can help me. I have just had massive setback in my research, which I have spent the last week trying to investigate to no avail.
I have Great Grandparents Patrick Keenan (b. c.1852, Ireland) and Margaret Hughes (b. c.1855, Oldham, Lancashire); I was 100% certain their respective fathers are Edward Keenan (b. c.1828, Ireland) and Malachi Hughes (b. c.1834, Ireland). I have birth and marriage certificates and census documents for my grandmother Alice Keenan (b. 29 June 1888 in Southbank, Middlesbrough and d. 11 March 1918 Happyland, Leadgate, Consett)) which confirm her parents names and origins. I sent for Patrick and Margarets 1874 marriage certificate because I am making a Family History folder for my two sisters. The marriage certificate came back with their fathers names as John Keenan and John Hughes.
Edward Keenan was dead at the time of the marriage and I can't trace Malachi Hughes after the 1861 census. Everything on the certificate appears is correct with the exception of the fathers Christian names, both families are Irish immigrants.
Do you think the fathers names could be wrong on the certificate or am I just clutching at straws and need to do some real digging.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions/help
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Just so we can see the family
1901 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSHT-P25
Patrick Keenan 49 Ireland
Margaret 45 Oldham, Lancashire
John Thomas 24 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Agnes 17 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Arthur 15 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Alice 12 South Bank, Yorkshire
Patrick 8 Consett, Durham
How did you establish that Edward Keenan & Malachi Hughes were Patrick & Margarets fathers if you did not have the 1874 marriage certificate
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I sent for Patrick and Margarets 1874 marriage certificate
The marriage certificate came back with their fathers names as John Keenan and John Hughes.
Edward Keenan was dead at the time of the marriage and I can't trace Malachi Hughes after the 1861 census. Everything on the certificate appears is correct with the exception of the fathers Christian names, both families are Irish immigrants.
Do you think the fathers names could be wrong on the certificate
In a minority of circumstances the info. given on a marriage has been either deliberately wrong or not quite understood (step-father, fall out with parent, made up name if illegitimate etc) but not too often & is believed to be the best source as the info. is given by the couple themselves.
"How did you establish that Edward Keenan & Malachi Hughes were Patrick & Margarets fathers if you did not have the 1874 marriage certificate"
I wondered the same thing?
Annie
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Who were the witnesses on the marriage cert and what are the occupations of the fathers?
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Just so we can see the family
1901 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSHT-P25
Patrick Keenan 49 Ireland
Margaret 45 Oldham, Lancashire
John Thomas 24 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Agnes 17 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Arthur 15 Middlesbro, Yorkshire
Alice 12 South Bank, Yorkshire
Patrick 8 Consett, Durham
How did you establish that Edward Keenan & Malachi Hughes were Patrick & Margarets fathers if you did not have the 1874 marriage certificate
Hi Rosie, through the 1861 census for both Patrick and Margaret, the GRO search for theirs and their siblings mothers maiden name and my grandmother Alice's birth certificate which gave me her parents names and location to search the census.
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Alma, can you answer the question I asked you on Reply#3 or do you not have that information?
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Who were the witnesses on the marriage cert and what are the occupations of the fathers?
Hi, thanks for answering. I don't recognise the names of the two witnesses on the certificate and the occupation is correct for Patrick's father (labourer) but not for Margaret's.
My issue is that on my grandmother Alice's birth certificate her parents are recorded as Patrick and Margaret Keenan, formerly Hughes and I can track them both from the 1861 census to the 1901 census but I can't find any evidence of another Patrick Keenan marrying a Margaret Hughes.
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What was the occupation of Margarets father on her marriage certificate
ADDED Where do you have Margaret Hughes in 1871
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What was the occupation of Margarets father on her marriage certificate
ADDED Where do you have Margaret Hughes in 1871
Hi Rosie, he was a Puddler (stirrer of molten metal) on the marriage certificate, but on the 1861 census he was a Cotton Carder.
Edit: I can't find any of the family on the 1871 census but have Margaret on the 1861/81/91/1901 census. Nor can I find Margaret's parents after the 1861 census.
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Where is Margaret in 1871
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Where is Margaret in 1871
As I said earlier, I can't find Margaret, her parents or any of her siblings in the 1871 census.
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Who were the witnesses on the marriage cert and what are the occupations of the fathers?
Hi, my apologies I missed your question, the marriage certificate has:
In the presence of James Shortal, then, x the mark of McLock or could be Mr Lock. I assume they are the witnesses
Their fathers occupations are Patrick Keenan-father John Keenan-occupation Labourer.
Margaret Hughes-father John Hughes-occupation Puddler.
Thanks again for any help you can give me.
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Where is Margaret in 1871
As I said earlier, I can't find Margaret, her parents or any of her siblings in the 1871 census.
I think you probably added it to your post after I had read it ;D
Going back to Patrick Keenan who do you have as his mother
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Where is Margaret in 1871
As I said earlier, I can't find Margaret, her parents or any of her siblings in the 1871 census.
I think you probably added it to your post after I had read it ;D
Going back to Patrick Keenan who do you have as his mother
Hi Rosie, I guess you are right, I edited the post after I spotted your question, my apologies.
I have Patrick Keenan's mother as Judith Crainah, I got that from the 1861 census, and the 1855 Baptism record of his brother Edward:
Name Edward Keenan
Gender Male
Baptism Date 08 Apr 1855
Baptism Place Pontop, Durham, England
Father Edwd. Keenan
Mother Judith Crainah
FHL Film Number 2082485
Household Members
Name Age
Judith Crainah
Edwd. Keenan
Edward Keenan
Other evidence from the GRO search facility is scant, but I believe on the balance of probability I have the correct family (famous last words of someone set for a fall).
Once again Rosie, thanks for your assistance, I really appreciate it.
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Malachi, Mary & John T in 1881 :-\
RG11 / 4855 f66 p41
22, Lawson Street, Linthorpe, Middlesbrough
John Hughes age 42 occ Puddler born Ireland
Mary Hughes age 42 bn Ireland
John T Hughes age 19 bn Oldham
John T Keaning age 5 (Lodger) bn Middlesbrough
two other lodgers bn Ireland
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Malachi Rosie ??? You have John as the head chap. Just checked the census reference you gave and it shows John and Mary. ::)
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This family matches Malachi & Mary who were in Oldham with daughter Margaret in 1861. John T Keaning is the eldest child of Patrick & Margaret. :)
I think Malachi had a brush with the law in the 1850's Oldham - perhaps he changed his name when he moved
ADDED Margarets marriage names her father as John occ Puddler
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So why is there a five year gap in birth years between the 1861 and 1881?
1861 has Malachi born c1834 and 1881 has John born c1839. Mary's year of birth changes as well, 1835 in 1861 and 1839 in 1881.
John T also has different birth years, 1859 and 1862.
Trying to disguise who they were by changing their birth years? ??? ???
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Malachi, Mary & John T in 1881 :-\
RG11 / 4855 f66 p41
22, Lawson Street, Linthorpe, Middlesbrough
John Hughes age 42 occ Puddler born Ireland
Mary Hughes age 42 bn Ireland
John T Hughes age 19 bn Oldham
John T Keaning age 5 (Lodger) bn Middlesbrough
two other lodgers bn Ireland
That is brilliant Rosie, thanks so much for that. There are too many coincidences for that not to be the family, can I ask you what site the RG11 / 4855 f66 p41 refers to? I have found the census on Ancestry but it would be good to know for future reference. Also what makes you think that Malachi had trouble with the law? It was one of my lines of research, along with emigration and a return to Ireland to explain his absence from the census after 1861.
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RG11 is the census reference for 1881, the rest is the Piece number, Folio number and page :)
Ancestry has a space for it to be entered in a search as does FindMyPast
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7572
The start digits differ each census from 1861
1861 (RG9)
1871 (RG10)
1881 (RG11)
1891 (RG12)
1901 (RG13)
1911 (RG14)
1841 and 1851 are both H0107
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser 27 October 1855 has a small report of a Malachy Hughes and two other Irish men assaulting John Lee and two police officers. They were each fined £10 plus costs and in default were committed for 3 months. Oldham was the location
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RG11 is the census reference for 1881, the rest is the Piece number, Folio number and page :)
Ancestry has a space for it to be entered in a search as does FindMyPast
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7572
The start digits differ each census from 1861
1861 (RG9)
1871 (RG10)
1881 (RG11)
1891 (RG12)
1901 (RG13)
1911 (RG14)
1841 and 1851 are both H0107
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser 27 October 1855 has a small report of a Malachy Hughes and two other Irish men assaulting John Lee and two police officers. They were each fined £10 plus costs and in default were committed for 3 months. Oldham was the location
Rosie, I still can't workout how to use the references to search or how you found the two newspaper articles about Malachi. Do you subscribe to newspaper archives? if so can you advise which one so I can take a subscription.
Thanks again for your help it has been invaluable, can I be cheeky and ask if you have any ideas on Patrick's father who I believe to be Edward but the marriage certificate has him as John Keenan.
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Newspapers are available on the British Newspaper Archive website or FindMyPast.
I don't normally use the census reference to search with unless someone has indicated that it is where the record is found. We always try and give it when we find a record on here so that other people can find it easily.
I have not looked at Patricks family yet
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Newspapers are available on the British Newspaper Archive website or FindMyPast.
I don't normally use the census reference to search with unless someone has indicated that it is where the record is found. We always try and give it when we find a record on here so that other people can find it easily.
I have not looked at Patricks family yet
Rosie, I appreciate your help so much, I was at an impasse and would never have made this breakthrough, thanks again.
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I can only assume that Patricks father was Edward who died in 1866. Maybe Edward did not know his fathers first name
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d. 11 March 1918 Happyland, Leadgate, Consett))
This has no relevance at all to your enquiry, but just in case you don't know, here is map to show the location of Happy Land http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.8559&lon=-1.7713&layers=6&right=BingHyb
My grandmother lived just along the road at Greencroft Cottages, and spoke of having friends who lived at Happy Land.
There's not a trace of it to be seen now.
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I can only assume that Patricks father was Edward who died in 1866. Maybe Edward did not know his fathers first name
Thanks again for trying to solve this Rosie. I have even tried starting a Keenan tree to work my way through just that family line and I come to the same results without any alternative that fits the evidence.
Patrick would have been 4 when Edward died so it is conceivable that he could not recall his father's name. I have just had a thought and checked the 1871 census, Patrick and his two brothers, young Edward and Nicholas are living in their brother-in-laws house and his name is John O'Neill so that may be an explanation.
I have learned quite a bit from your help Rosie
Kind Regards
Edit: Patrick was 14 when his father died not 4 as I have stated (my bad counting). As he was living with his brother in law John O'Neill I would guess he is the "John" on the marriage certificate.