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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: TracyRosina on Thursday 31 May 18 22:16 BST (UK)

Title: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Thursday 31 May 18 22:16 BST (UK)
Hi. I'm having problems finding a birth certificate for my great great grandma Annie Eliza Lawes. She was the first of 12 children to Stephen Lawes and Susan Betts. She was christened aged approx 2 with her sister. We can find the birth certificates for the 11 other children. On the 1939 census Annie gave her date of birth as 20 December 1872. We found a birth certificate for an Eliza Lawes on this date who was born in a Basingstoke workhouse but that gives her mothers name as Eliza. Any help gratefully received. Thank you
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: chempat on Thursday 31 May 18 22:49 BST (UK)
When did her parents marry, and have you looked for her under Betts?
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 31 May 18 23:19 BST (UK)
Hmm, interesting - can't find any Lawes/Betts marriage. 
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: chempat on Thursday 31 May 18 23:25 BST (UK)
Yes.

Are they from the travelling community?

(Think it is sometimes Laws)
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Girl Guide on Thursday 31 May 18 23:33 BST (UK)
Might be.  1881 & 1891 Stephen is a general labourer, 1901 has him as a pedlar.  Haven't strayed out of Hampshire so far.  I'll just see if I can locate them in 1911.
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Girl Guide on Friday 01 June 18 00:41 BST (UK)
Susan is a widow in the 1911.  This looks to be Stephen's death registration:-

Deaths Mar 1908   
LAWES    Stephen    58    Kingsclere    2c   168

According to census records Stephen was born 1846/47 so the age is incorrect, but Susan is living in the Kingsclere district in 1911 so probably the right death.
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 09:17 BST (UK)
Hi no I haven’t been able to find their marriage certificate
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 09:18 BST (UK)
Are they from the travelling community?

(Think it is sometimes Laws)
[/quote]
Not sure
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 09:21 BST (UK)
Susan is a widow in the 1911.  This looks to be Stephen's death registration:-

Deaths Mar 1908   
LAWES    Stephen    58    Kingsclere    2c   168

There is a rumour that Annie was illegitimate. But if she was Susan’s before marriage I assume there should be a birth certificate somewhere. If the Eliza born in the workhouse is my Annie that certificate stayed her mum was Eliza so why would Stephen and Susan bring her up?  Haven’t been able to find a sister of Susan called Eliza?  Thank you for your time

According to census records Stephen was born 1846/47 so the age is incorrect, but Susan is living in the Kingsclere district in 1911 so probably the right death.
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Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 01 June 18 10:39 BST (UK)
If there wasn't a marriage then all the children are illegitimate not just the first one.

Have you got the actual birth certificate for the Eliza born in the workhouse? 

Does it give any more information on the mother and what birthplace does your Annie Eliza have on census? 
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 01 June 18 10:48 BST (UK)
Was Susan Betts the daughter of James and Susan?

If so in 1871 she has a sister Elizabeth age 14.  Possible she was the mother and sister brought her up. 
Elizabeth marries but has no children. 

When was the next child to Stephen and Susan born?
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Girl Guide on Friday 01 June 18 12:03 BST (UK)
After Annie is Sarah J born 1875, Alice S 1877, Rose C 1878, William S 1879, Charles H 1882, Susan E 1884, Beatrice M 1889.

1911 says 12 born, 11 living, 1 died.
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 12:43 BST (UK)
If there wasn't a marriage then all the children are illegitimate not just the first one.

Have you got the actual birth certificate for the Eliza born in the workhouse? 

Does it give any more information on the mother and what birthplace does your Annie Eliza have on census?
Hi. Yes I have the Eliza birth certificate and it states Eliza as the mother and place as Basingstoke workhouse
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 12:43 BST (UK)
If there wasn't a marriage then all the children are illegitimate not just the first one.

Have you got the actual birth certificate for the Eliza born in the workhouse? 

Does it give any more information on the mother and what birthplace does your Annie Eliza have on census?
Hi. Yes I have the Eliza birth certificate and it states Eliza as the mother and place as Basingstoke workhouse

Annie gives her place of birth as Basingstoke
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 12:45 BST (UK)
After Annie is Sarah J born 1875, Alice S 1877, Rose C 1878, William S 1879, Charles H 1882, Susan E 1884, Beatrice M 1889.

1911 says 12 born, 11 living, 1 died.

Yes I have the "sibling" details. I'm currently researching with a descendant of Rose Caroline
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: TracyRosina on Friday 01 June 18 12:47 BST (UK)
Was Susan Betts the daughter of James and Susan?

If so in 1871 she has a sister Elizabeth age 14.  Possible she was the mother and sister brought her up. 
Elizabeth marries but has no children. 

When was the next child to Stephen and Susan born?

Yes that is her - daughter of James Betts and Susan. I believe the next child was Sarah Jane 1875 but I'll check my records
Title: Re: Lawes - Annie Eliza from Basingstoke Hampshire UK
Post by: Girl Guide on Friday 01 June 18 13:08 BST (UK)
Do you have a birth certificate for any of the children born after Annie?  If so presumably the mother is stated as being Susan Lawes with maiden name being Betts.

On the birth cert you have for Eliza LAWS is there an address other than the workhouse one?  Hang on though, if this Eliza has been registered as LAWS then she can't be the child of Susan's sister Eliza as her surname ought to be BETTS.

However if Susan's sister Eliza knew the child was going to be brought up by Susan, then it may have been decided to register her with Susan's 'married' surname of LAWS/LAWES.

But where did the Annie name come from?

You could go round in circles with this!  ::)