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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Dee Lusional on Sunday 27 May 18 03:25 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping someone on here has information in regards to George Randall who I think was born in Derby, England around 1823. He came to Australia where he married Ellen Janeway in 1850. George is my great grandfather and the story prior to his arrival here is a mystery although a distant relative of mine has found information regarding his parents, it doesn't tie in with the story that was handed down to my family by my grandfather, Walter (George's son). Any information would be greatly appreciated thanks.
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Maybe...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33G-LGD
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Thanks so much for supplying me with such a great site for finding information,solidrock, I joined but haven't found the required information as yet, but will keep trying on there.
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Can you be specific.
What is the point of difference between the family story...….and what other researchers have found.
SA BDM marriage
1850 4/194 RANDALL m. George JANEWAY Ellen @ Adelaide
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The information a distant cousin has found states that George’s father, George Randall (born 1788), was a hairdresser and perfumer of 12 Rotten Row, Derby, England, and his mother was Martha Augusta Randall. This information also included that my great grandfather, George, was born in 1828, but his marriage certificate states he was 27 when married to Ellen Janeway in 1850.
The story my grandfather told my dad was that his father’s (George) family were shipbuilders in Devon, England, and George sailed their ship to Australia and sold the ship and cargo when he got here. So either the information my cousin discovered is for a different George Randall or my great grandfather made up a good yarn.
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1841 census..
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M739-MH1
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Family stories are very useful in researching your ancestors.
Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate please. There will not be much detail, but everything is useful.
Can you list the names, birth dates and places of their children.
Where and when did George RANDALL, and wife Ellen die?
Does the life of George and wife Ellen JANEWAY suggest that he would have money...from sale of ship. What work does George do?
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Marriage certificate: Married November 30, 1850, Trinity Church, Adelaide. He was a labourer. They were married by licensed layman – James Farrell MA.
Just after they were married, George purchased land to farm and he built Dingley Dell, which he later lost in a card game to the poet, Adam Lindsay Gordon. After that he became a publican of a hotel in Mt Gambier, South Australia so he must have had some money from the sale of the ship and cargo. He died on November 5, 1889 and was buried on November 7 at Numurkha Cemetery, Victoria.
Ellen Janeway died June 05, 1905 at Kalgoorlie, Western Australia. Her surname when she died was Ayre because George disappeared and after 7 years she married Joseph Ayre. But as it turns out, George didn’t really disappear, he left his wife and children.
Their children’s names, and place and date of birth:
Ellen, Strathalbyn 16.9.1852
Annie, Strathalbyn 30.01.1855
George, Turkey Gully, 14.10.1856
Henry, Mt Gambier, 15.6.1859
Richard, Pt MacDonnell, 20.03.1861
Walter, Pt MacDonnell, 29.4.1863
Harriett Cooper, Allensford, 25.10.1865
Ellen had more children to Joseph Ayre
Thanks so much for your interest, wivenhoe, it's greatly appreciated :)
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Thanks solidrock, I followed the link and have the same information from my distant cousin, but I'll be able to use the census for more research - it will be very useful!
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Rotten Row Derby about 1865 and street directory 1843.
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That's amazing, solidrock! It must be our George, not sure about the ship building story now. It's such a mystery. It's strange though, because sailing is in our blood. My grandfather (George's son) had pearling luggers in the Torres Strait in the early days and my dad had a beautiful yacht.
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I had a look for ship builders in Devon but can'y find any Randall. There is this one but he's in Kent.
John Randall (1755–1802) was an English shipbuilder
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".. It must be our George, not sure about the ship building story now. "
It confirms that that the person the other researcher found, does exist. But that does not means it is your George.
The shipbuilding story probably has some connection to your ancestry but not in the way you are hearing it. By the time you are giving this information it is third hand, and stories are easily changed for the repeated telling.
A man from a family of ship builders / owners would hardly describe himself as a labourer.
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1850.
Apart from hearing the shipbuilding story, what have you done so far to research the origins of George RANDALL, married 1850, Adelaide?
You need to talk with the other researcher to find how they have connected your George to George and Martha Augusta RANDALL.
George and Ellen RANDALL have three daughters, and Martha.....Augusta...does not feature in their names. Just something to note.
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Thanks solidrock, I searched the name you gave me for that shipbuilder on the internet and by the looks of what he achieved I'm sure we'd have heard about him if he was an ancestor. Thanks very much for your help.
Wivenhoe, the names of the witnesses on the marriage certificate are hard to read, but they look like: Robert Coad and Marg McLean.
I have lost touch with my distant cousin who found the information about George, and I've searched many sites on the Internet to try to find more on him. The details I have after his arrival in Australia include his marriage certificate and burial details. There are no details of his parents in any of the information I have. I also have a lot of handwritten notes from my mum and other relatives to sort through, however it's getting the time to do it. If I find anything useful in the notes I'll post it on here. Thanks very much for your help.
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Hi, Still on the case. You mentioned that George lost Dingley Dell in a card game to poet Adam Lindsay Gordon. In Adam Lindsay Gordon's biography it states " In March 1864 Gordon bought Dingley Dell, a cottage near Port MacDonnell."
Adam Lindsay Gordon purchased the property on 8 March 1864 from George Randall, who had built the Mount Gambier stone cottage two years earlier but had decided to quit farming and become a publican.
http://www.freestylepublications.com.au/show_article.asp?id=85
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/gordon-adam-lindsay-3635
Dingley Dell was the home of Adam Lindsay Gordon from 1864 to 1867. There is a legend that Gordon won the cottage in a card game from its owner George Randall...
http://www.dingleydell.net/
1864 Mar. 8 Dingley Dell transferred by George Randall (Transfer No. 7076 Title Deeds) to Adam Lindsay Gordon, Gentleman. 101 Acres Approx)
(J.K. Moir Border Watch (Mount Gambier,Thursday 2 December 1937, page 1)
https://algordonpartsix.travellerspoint.com/
So I think all this has dispelled that myth of a card game.
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This maybe where the ship builder legend started, William Richard Randell (1824-1911), paddle-steamer owner and politician, was born on 2 May 1824 at Sidbury, Devon, England. I don't think he is connected.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/randell-william-richard-4450
What we need to find is immigration and passenger lists around 1845-1850 but I don't think passenger lists started untill 1852.
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You may already have this, the marriage of George (1788) to Martha. Looks like they came from Nottinghamshire but I think Martha's surname has been transcribed wrongly.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKMV-XBW
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Thanks for still being on the case, solidrock, I really appreciate it. I already have the information that you posted about Dingley Dell and I can assure you that the card game story is indeed true. My mother wrote down the story of the card game that my Aunty Gladys (George’s granddaughter) told her and when my mum visited Dingley Dell years ago she told the Trust the story and that is where the so-called myth came from.
This is the story my mother wrote, which is from the notes I have: "Grandfather (Walter 1st, George’s son), said he (Adam Lindsay Gordon) was a worthless person, wanted money the easy way and was cruel to horses. He shot himself at 37 years of age because he was at the end of the line, and left a poor young wife who had lost her child, to find him and then fend for herself. It states in the booklet (about Adam Lindsay Gordon and mentioned at the beginning of the note) that he bought the home (Dingley Dell) from George Randall - not so. George Randall sailed his father's boat out from England, and sold it and the cargo (whether he should have or not!!) and must have kept it (whether he should have or not). Anyhow, I don't know how soon ( because he was a worker at one stage) he bought the land of Dingley Dell, records prove this and he had the home built, other records show the price he paid too. Now the family story goes, and much bitterment with it that George was drinking at the local inn, Mt Gambier, and Gordon approached him and suggested a card game. George replied that he was drinking - Gordon replied, "Just a friendly game".
Anyhow, next morning Gordon was on the steps of Dingley Dell with two witnesses to say that he had won the property in the card game the night before so he (George) lost his home and farm and became a hotelier at Mt Gambier. Dingley Dell was named after some property in England.
Years ago the Trust caring for Dingley Dell said they had all the figures covering the purchase of the land by George Randall and the building of the home, but no figures pertaining to the sale of the property to Adam Lindsay Gordon or the handover of the deeds, which would have normally gone through the local government office”. End of story from Mum’s notes.
Did you know that Adam Lindsay Gordon was a remittance man?
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Thanks so much for the information about Martha and you're correct - I already have it. I really can't match my George Randall with George (hairdresser and perfumer) and Martha, but maybe I'm wrong.
I will check out William Richard Randall. Thanks for that too!
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Interesting story perhaps you can track down the deeds,
1864 Mar. 8 Dingley Dell transferred by George Randall (Transfer No. 7076 Title Deeds) I think Gordon said he paid £150.
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Thanks solidrock, I might chase the deed up one day, but for now I'm keen to find George Randall's parents in England. After a quick check of the notes given to me by my distant cousin, it seems she found an obituary of a George Randall in a newspaper in which it said he had a wife and children in Port MacDonnell and died without a will. She also found this George's burial information and that's where she got the place of birth from and then found the rest of the information form the 1841 census. From the research I've done, there were a lot of George Randalls around at that time so the obit may not have anything to do with our George. It's a puzzle!
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Which George are you talking about, the 1788 one or the 1828 one, I thought we had the 1828's parents, George and Martha.
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I'm talking about the 1828 one but I don't think that date or George and Martha are anything to do with our George because the dates don't correspond with the information we know - on the marriage certificate of our George it states that he was 27 when he got married in 1850, which means he must have been born around 1823.
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Hi Belle G,
That throws a spanner in the works if you think we've got the wrong George. I have only found two Georges born in Derbyshire around the dates you gave...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGN9-877
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33G-LGD
Of the 2 George 1828 matched up with the info you have from your cousin and from which we have some facts, although not necessarily confirming it's your George. He is in the 1841 census with parents George and Martha but in the 1851 he is no longer with them, this fits the timescale that he may of gone to Australia. I am not convinced with the story about George sailing his fathers ship, as wivenhoe said, stories get changed over the years. He would have been 22-27 at that time and I doubt he would of had the experience to sail a clipper,(probably), 9.000+ miles for at least 3 months duration. There is a record for a George Randall, merchant seaman but I can't find the original to check...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCSB-DCY
It's a pity you have lost contact with your cousin to see what documentary evidence they have.
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".. I might chase the deed up one day, but for now I'm keen to find George Randall's parents in England."
This is not incidental to researching the origins of George RANDALL. The circumstances of the changing ownership of Dingley Dell are important because they are a test of the credibility of the notes you are using. At this stage, it would seem that the notes of another researcher are all you have to work with. I am not suggesting that you access the files for transfer of property ownership, but you need to question the information that you are working with.
And if this is the source of the information that you are using, and giving to a forum, you need to consider the accuracy of the notes. When was this research done....five years ago...twenty years ago? When were the notes compiled?
Looking at online information about Adam Lindsay GORDON, I am seeing that he bought Dingley Dell.
Where you see your George RANDALL as a publican, he is the person who applies for a liquor license. He is not the owner of a hotel.
"..... obituary of a George Randall in a newspaper in which it said he had a wife and children in Port MacDonnell and died without a will."
The probate file for George RANDALL, died Victoria, states that he died intestate, and that he had a family in Port Macdonnell and had left them about thirty years earlier.
Have you located a newspaper obituary for him?
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Thanks solidrock. Yes, I don't think the 1828 George is ours because that birth year doesn't match his age on his marriage certificate. That was great that you checked the 1851 census too to see if George was on there and the dates do match up to his arrival in Australia, it's just his birth date doesn't match up with the marriage certificate.
I've been thinking along the same lines as you in regards to George sailing his father's ship out to Australia, I too think he would have been too young to do that.
This looks interesting: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJD2-JDJC
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Hi wivenhoe, Thanks for still be interested in this search. The researchers include my mother who passed away in 2006 and did her research long before the Internet was available, and the other researcher is a distant cousin who may have passed away by now as her emails and letters stopped suddenly. However, she did give me copies of all her notes and photocopies of other information she found. I still have to get time to read through everything she's given me.
As for Adam Lindsay Gordon purchasing George's land and house, the information you are seeing and what really happened may be two different things. I'm sure anything that would tarnish his reputation would never be added to any information written about him.
I have photocopy of George's obituary in the newspaper - that's where I got my information from, which I posted earlier. If he had left his family 30 years earlier than his death in 1889 means that he probably isn't our George as I think he was still with them after 1859.
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There are a lot of if's and but's here but what you need is real evidence. George does'nt seem to be in Numurkah Cemetery, Victoria. I've visited several sites that list burials there and he's not one of them.Also I've searched Trove for his obituary and can't find it
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https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
George RANDALL late of Strathmerton died 5 Nov 1889
VPRS 28/ P2 unit 275, item 41/100 page 4 of 4
....I am informed and believe that he left a wife and children at Port McDonnell South Australia about thirty years ago.......
This is obviously a general indication of time.
You have said "...He died on November 5, 1889 and was buried on November 7 at Numurkha Cemetery, Victoria."
Where do you see this information about the burial site? Do you have this death certificate?
I am not seeing the obituary about the death of George....what newspaper....what date please?
You need to sort through the notes you have. Look to confirm / refute details. And read everything with a critical eye.
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This maybe George's death
RANDALL
Given namesGeo
EventDeath
Father's name / Spouse's family nameUnknown
Mother's maiden name / Spouse's given nameUnknown (Unknown)
Reg. year1889
Reg. no19116
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Thank you solidrock, and wivenhoe for everything you've done to date. I'm going to have to sort through the documents and notes and try to get them into some type of order and timeline as I've had a quick look this evening and I've discovered that my distant cousin has three different dates for George's birth and she has his death certificate. Also, she omitted one of his children from the family tree she gave me and has added it later - his first child is Martha Augusta born Adelaide 21/08/1851 so there is a link to George Randall of Rotten Row.
The newspaper with his Death Notice is The Border Watch, published April 2, 1890.
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I would say thats a very good link to your George. ;D
Found the death notice.
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Excellent thanks! :D It certainly seems like our George! I will sift through the notes I have to try to put everything including dates in order, it will be a big job so will try to get through it tomorrow :-\
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The marriage record you have, is it the original or transcribed? The age of 27 could be 22.
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I finally got a chance to scan the marriage certificate - I think it looks like George's age is 27. My mother purchased this certificate in 1976 I think.
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Well I've gone through the notes, and I don't think my brain can handle much more. This is what I've found from all the notes relating to George Randall.
Birth information my cousin has for George (note written in 2006): “Born Derby England circa 1826 (ref to 1841 Census for Derby, Parish of All Saints, Rotten Row). 1st child of George Randall and his wife Martha. George’s age at the time of the census = 13.”
She has also recorded a birth date of 7 May 1823
And below, another one - 14 February 1828
Family Group Sheet (my cousin wrote this in August 2006):
Husband: George Randall, born 1788, Hairdresser Perfumer Hay Market 12 Rotten Row, Derby. Married circa 1826
Wife: Martha Augusta Randall, born circa 1806, Nottingham, England, house wife of 12 Rotten Row, Derby, England
(My cousin has given me a photocopy of George and Martha’s marriage record, it’s very poor, but I can just make out their names.)
Children:
George Randall: born 14 February 1828, Derby, England, Christened same day at All Saints Parrish Church, Derby England. Died 5 November 1889, Strathmerton, Victoria, Buried 7 November 1889 at Numurkah Cemetery Victoria C/E section. Occupation – hotel licensee Port McDonnell SA, Labourer/Farmer SA, Victoria. Religion – Church of England, Spouse Ellen Janeway, married 5 November 1850 Holy Trinity Church of England, Adelaide, SA.
Henry Anthony Randall
Martha Augusta Randall
Walter Randall
Richard Randall
1850 – According to what my cousin says she has put together ‘based on hard facts’, George arrived in Australia circa 1850 and in November of that year he married Ellen Janeway at Holy Trinity Church of England, Adelaide SA.
Children of George and Ellen:
Martha Augusta
Ellen
Annie
George
Henry
Richard
Walter
Harriett Cooper (named after Ellen’s mother)
1865 – George disappeared around the time of the birth of his last child. At the time the family guessed he must have returned to England and was lost at sea.
Taken from my cousin’s notes:
“It was quite by chance that his death was found. Another family member first found the listing and by-passed it because it had no parents listed. When she told me, I decided to take a punt and send for the certificate. In any case the person who had given the information on the certificate was a neighbour. He stated that George Randall, the deceased, had been born in Derby, England, and had arrived in South Australia in 1850 and that he had left a wife and children in Port McDonnell, South Australia some twenty years ago. Now ever the detective, I sent for the papers concerning his estate and found that he had died intestate. The public trustee had placed an advertisement in the Mt Gambier paper asking for family to come forth (to protect the estate) of course no one did, no one knew he was living in that place. I am certain that he is our George Randall, but why he disappeared from his wife and family, no one knows.”
Further to my cousin’s notes, she was having doubts about George sailing his father’s ship out from England too, but other descendants of George told her that his family was connected to the sea.
I’ve been trying to find information about George in regards to him being a passenger or crew on a ship that arrived in Australia, but no luck so far.
As we can see in these notes, the children's names have carried on from George and Martha.
I found a record of George's burial at Numurkah.
It’s amazing how much research my mother and cousin have managed to do – mum prior to the Internet, and my cousin and her husband travelling around the country in their Winnebago interviewing distant relatives, checking newspapers, and cemeteries etc. A huge, and wonderful effort!
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Hi Belle G, you have been busy, lot of useful information there. You say the marriage record of George and Martha is in poor condition, perhaps we can get a better copy from Nottingham parish records, it may have info that will give us George and Martha's parents so that we can find their births and maybe George's siblings one of which may have been a shipbuilder. I think we can safely assume that your George in Aus. is the correct one by his first girl child being named Martha Augusta and the first boy child named George. His age on the marriage cert. is the only fly in the ointment but he may not of know his age or he lied. I don't think the FindMyPast record of Georges burial will give much information and I could'nt find any other records of it anywhere, perhaps we need to contact Numurkah Cemetery to see if they have a record.
I've just got back from our weekly trip to the mainland for supplies and I'm a bit tired now but I'll get back on the case tomorrow if we have electricity, (one of the pleasures of living on an island in a third world country).
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Wow, solidrock, fancy living on an island - that's incredible! Thanks for replying to my post when you're tired. I'll catch up with you tomorrow if you have electricity :)
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Not having much luck finding anything so far, Aus records seem so hard to search if your not used to them. Searched passenger lists for SA 1850 George does'nt seem to be there, try 1849 later. Looked for the births of George and Ellen's children and only found 2 ...
1855 RANDALL Ann. Father George RANDALL. Mother Helen JANEWAY. Adelaide 5/95
1856 RANDALL George. Father George RANDALL . Mother Helen JANEWAY. Strathalbyn 9/69
and George and Ellen's marriage..
1850 4/194 RANDALL George . JANEWAY Ellen. Adelaide
I don't know how complete SA BMD's are or if some of the children were born elsewhere.
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Hi solidrock, It's very difficult searching Australian records online. Some census records were pulped in the 1890s and some records have been lost in a fire. To access some records I would have to pay, which I don't mind but don't want to pay for a subscription only to find there's nothing. Also, any census records that may help can't be accessed online. I live in the bush so it's not easy getting to the city libraries. I've been going through passenger lists looking for George, but it's very time consuming. Here is the link I've been looking at: http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/BSA/SAShips1850.htm
I found that George once again applied for a publican licence at the Prince Albert Hotel in 1869 and held it until 1870. His wife remarried in 1890 and stated that she was widowed in 1871. She had two children to her second marriage: Benjamin born 1875 and Florence born 1877 so she was obviously living in sin when she could have remarried if George was actually dead so he must have disappeared.
We have all the birth details for George and Ellen's children. Birth places are: Adelaide, Strathalbyn, Turkey Gully, Kondaperinga SA, Mt Gambier, Port McDonnell, and Allendsdale.
I think I might have to give up on George, it's taking up such a lot of time, for you too I guess :)
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Hey don't give up so easily, it took 15 years to build my tree. The passenger lists I've been searching are originals...
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/passenger-lists-view/1850/
You've found what you originally were looking for, Georges parents and I'm sure we can get further given time. I agree with you about pay sites but sometimes they are useful if there is a hint of something you're looking for. ;D
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Wow, you're good! How did you find those passenger lists? I'm not very good at this and to be honest I'd probably rather poke my eyes out with a stick.
We are doing well with George though.
It certainly does seem as though we've found the right George.
You've found that he was in England in the 1841 census and not there in the 1851 census.
The time period of around 20 years the neighbour stated that George had left his family at Port MacDonnell prior to his death in 1889 matches George's last known whereabouts of 1870. Also, Ellen remarried in 1890 when she must have been sure he'd died. The neighbour also stated that George said he was born or was from Derby, England and he arrived in Australia in 1850.
The only things that don't match are his age on his marriage certificate and his birth year
The story of sailing his father's boat out from England and selling the cargo is odd, but he did have money to buy the land and build the farmhouse (Dingley Dell), which would be hard to save on a labourer's income. If I had capital of some type I would keep it intact to purchase something worthwhile rather than live off it so this may explain why he was working.
Have I forgotten anything?
After what I've looked at over the last week or so, I can certainly understand that it took 15 years for you to build your tree. I've had my notes, certificates etc for years and only just started looking at them because after my brother died in 2014 his grandson (12 at the time) wanted to know the family history. I promised the boy's father (my nephew) that there was no family tree, but if they were ever up this way they could photocopy what they wanted. Well, my nephew is coming up this way in July so I thought I'd put something together for him - sometimes I'm just too kind!!!
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In the 1851 it says George (1788) was born in Southwell, Nottinghamshire. Martha just Nottinghamshire. Need to find someone who has got access to Nottinghamshire PR's.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGDF-3LP
Have you built a tree online yet? You can do that for free on Ancestry then you may get some hints for other records.
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I saw somewhere that Martha's maiden name is Mather and that's what it looks like on their marriage record.
I've started family trees on different sites over the years, but never followed through with them. Last week I downloaded one I could work in in PDf and have filled that out. I have one on My Heritage, but just about every time I get a match, I have to subscribe to see it. The fees are quite high because of the Aussie dollar and I don't get much time to do research. Strangely enough I haven't seen much in the way for matches for Randalls but plenty for the other side of my family - Arnolds. I'll login to Ancestry.com and see what's happening with my family tree
I went through the passenger list you gave me the link for and the only one I found close to Randall is George Rundle, farm labourer from Cornwall, age 22 arrived on the Joseph Soames.
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I found my family tree in ancestry.com and there are a few hints to do with my Dad who I know all about but to access them I have to sign up for 6 months for US 99.00, which is about 130.00 Australian and more if I can pay with PayPal as PP has their own exchange rate.
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I found my family tree in ancestry.com and there are a few hints to do with my Dad who I know all about but to access them I have to sign up for 6 months for US 99.00, which is about 130.00 Australian and more if I can pay with PayPal as PP has their own exchange rate.
Does'nt Ancestry do a monthly sub? It does in UK. My Heritage subs are annually which make it very expensive to start after you've used your free limit.
Youv'e probably got these but just incase...
Martha 1871... https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBXQ-XMC
RANDALL, GEORGE 73
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 233
RANDALL, MARTHA AUGUSTA 86
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 307
National Probate Calendar Ancestry
Martha Augusta RANDALL widow d. 14 Mar 1878 Normanton Terrace Derby.....
executors Henry Anthony RANDALL, tobacconist, son, of Derby...and...Walter RANDALL mercer and draper, son, of Derby....
I'm just wondering if this is Martha in 1861, wrongly transcribed as Martha M...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M76Y-S5M
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You listed 8 children of George Randall and his wife between 1850 and 1865.
And then he left, and she took up with Mr Ayre, and had more children. This must have happened fairly soon after 1865, if she had more children. So, your grandfather must have been quite small when his father left.
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There is a Mather with no given name but with right date in this tree on Familysearch KJZG-NDR
The parents Archibald Mather and Elisabeth Carnell were married in the same church as George and Martha also there is a brother Joseph Birch Mather died in Adelaide, South Australia 1869.
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Sorry soildrock, I'm not getting much time to reply to your posts. My mum mentioned in her notes that there was a Mather relative somewhere. My grandfather, Walter, was born 29 April, 1863 but looking at the year George finished up as a publican - 1870 and when Ellen said she was widowed - 1871, he would have been 7 or 8 when his father disappeared, but he still grew up with his mother, Ellen who would have passed on the family stories (or her stories) to him when he was an adult.
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You've found that he was in England in the 1841 census and not there in the 1851 census.
Well, you found he was apparently not still living with his parents in 1851. How many 23-28 year old men did, then or now ? You did not actually find that he was not in England.
There's lots of other George Randalls in England in 1851.
And it seems a bit odd, there is a whole list of children, and then another one suddenly appears who just happens to have to have the right name. Is there any actual source for this daughter Martha ?
You need to be a bit careful about research done 20 or 30 years ago before the Internet. It was hard work, back then. In can be very difficult to connect immigrants to Australia ( including convicts ), to their families of origin in the UK or anywhere else for that matter. There is no shortage of instances where someone has taken the easy way out, just picked a person with the same name at random, that'l do, and then a short time later this spurious connection appears on lots of family trees as an extablished fact.
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It's very difficult searching Australian records online. Some census records were pulped in the 1890s and some records have been lost in a fire. To access some records I would have to pay, which I don't mind but don't want to pay for a subscription only to find there's nothing. Also, any census records that may help can't be accessed online. I live in the bush so it's not easy getting to the city libraries.
I think you are going about it the wrong way. There is almost no usable census information in Australia. If you have been following "how to research your family tree" advice from the UK or North America, you won't get very far.
A key thing, in Australia, is birth, marriage and death certificates, or transcriptions of them. If properly filled in, these are more informative than English ones. You've got George and Ellen's marriage certificate, which is good. Have you got any of the children's South Australia birth certificates ? They should corroborate George and Ellen's age and birthplace. I'd advise getting the first one and the second one and your grandfather Walter's.
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This is my first reply that I've just finished writing: Hi xiaolu, There is an actual source for Martha Augusta being one of George's children, it's just that my cousin didn't list her in the first hand-written family tree she did but did so in the following one. The research I'm putting on here was done by my distant cousin who used the Internet and obtained hard copy certificates as well as travelled around the country to do more search i.e church, cemetery records etc. My mum did a lot of research prior to the Internet, obtained hard copy certificates, and details from overseas and this is matching up with what my cousin has discovered.
It's well noted that our George was in Australia in 1850 because of his marriage certificate.
Reply to your latest post: I haven't been following any 'how to research', just doing my own thing and using what I already have. I have my grandfather, Walter's, birth certificate and it has recorded his parents - George and Ellen, and that George was a publican and their residence as Mt Gambier, but not their birth details.
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It might be worth looking at this guy:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195936908
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158927000
You might also want to look at the history of the Janeway brothers, who were farmers at Strathalbyn and also moved to the Mount Gambier area at about the same time.
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"It might be worth looking at this guy:"
That looks interesting xiaolu. ;D
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George Randall, slaughtering license, Kondoparinga district ( which is next to Strathalbyn ), 1855. Further down also Nicholas Coad, who may be connected with
the marriage witness.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158104996
And in 1856
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49745849
and in 1862 at MacDonnell Bay ( which is Port MacDonnell near Mt Gambier )
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/77078584
He was also involved in sex tourism for Clydesdales.
His hotel at Port MacDonnell was the Prince Albert. He obtained licenses for this hotel in 1863 and in 1869, but not continuously in between. When he applied for a license in 1869, he claimed to also be the owner of the premises.
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Can't see any arrivals for the Kingston after 1847.
KINGSTON arrived Port Adelaide 25 04 1847, departed London
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He is mentioned in "The Age" here.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197504453
That's 2 weeks after he died, they did not muck around with probate, then.
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district constable at Turkey Gully in the Kondoparinga district, 1856
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207095117
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Wow, you two have been busy! What fabulous information you've found. When I joined this site and posted in this forum, I was just hoping someone may have come across George while doing research for their family tree, I certainly didn't expect to get such wonderful help. I'm truly grateful! I've taken all your advice on board and now we have a ship's name to investigate, I'll get on to it. Thank you both!
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Found the log book for Kingston, it's very difficult to read. I can't find an arrival in 1849, the last being 1847, maybe it stayed in Adelaide. We don't know that the George that jumped ship is ours,(sorry, yours ;D) yet. But if he was just a merchant seaman in 1849 where did the money come from for the Dingley Dell property?
https://archive.org/details/logbookofcortess1849cort
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I loved it when you called him 'ours' ;D That's a good question, we always thought he got the money for the Dingley Dell property from the sale of the ship. What a mystery!
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Deviating away from "our" George for a while and going back to Martha Augusta Mather who I think is the sister of Joseph Birch Mather. Joseph arrived in Adelaide 1848 on the Baboo with his wife Mary and 3 children. Also on the ship was a Coad family who Robert Coad, the witness, may of been connected with. I think that this may confirm in the rule of probability that Archibald Mather and Elisabeth Carnell were Martha Augusta's parents.
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/BSA/1848Baboo.htm
Joseph Birch Mather seems to be connected with SA railways.
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That's very interesting thanks solidrock, will take a look. "Our" George is certainly making life interesting with all the twists and turns :) I've been out all day, this is the first chance I've had to get on the computer.
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Don't worry about not replying every time I'm sure your busy, I'm retired so I've got plenty of time and it keeps my brain active and stops me going senile. ;D Not 100% about Martha's parents yet, trying to confirm the missing baptism but the other names look like more that a coincidence and they all seem to live around Strathalbyn area.
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Thanks so much solidrock, I always feel bad when I can't get on here to reply quickly to your posts. You're doing excellent research, thanks! I need to go through everything on here and make notes to remind myself what I need to chase up.
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A couple of more snippets...
Ship Kingston
Barque, built 1828 in Hull, 279 tonns, Owner Capper and Co, London.
TROVE. 5th.May 1847.
By an accidental omission of our shipping reporter.
The names of the passengers by the Kingston were omitted.
They were Mr E. Freeman, Mr Fred. Dodd, and Mr Jas.
Dodd. A fourth passenger, Mr Chas. Frith, died on the
passage.
As I said before I can't find any voyages of the Kingston after 1847 so it may have been sold or scrapped in Adelaide.
—How "Dingley Dell' Derived Its N'ame.—
Early in the year' 1862 Mr. George Randall
arrived in the district and took up
the land surrogunding Dingley Dell, and
it was for him that the cGttage, immortalized
by its association with the poet,
was erected. The actual builders of the
house- Mr. Thompson could not remember.
There were then only two fences between
Moorak and Port MacDonnell, and in order
to safeguard the stock he had purchased
Mr. Randall had been hobbled aitd belled.
The stock were mustered twice a day.
The country surrounding the cottaige was
then, even more so than now, a sylvan
paradise in which guyns and wattles ran
riot, and it was from -the music of the birds
in the trees, mingled with the tinkling of
the be Ha of the hobbled sto&, that the
name ""Dingley Dell" was derived.
;D
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Oh how lovely to read that about Dingley Dell, thank you! ;D I see you have been busy! Thanks also for the info about the Kingston. Our George's story still remains elusive. I've taken your very good advice and logged into the Australian ancestry website and continued with the family tree, and you're so right - the hints are great. I've found such a lot of wonderful information and names that I could search the net for, which resulted in excellent accessible records on geni.com. The history of my Norwegian great grandfather is absolutely amazing! His ancestry goes back a long way - if only our George would show up! There's a family story about my Norwegian great grandfather being murdered on Stradbroke Island and through geni.com I found the actual article about the event in Trove!
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Oh no, don't go to Norway, I've just got used to the outback in Oz. Not sure about Geni it's not got very good reviews...
https://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/geni.com
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Awful reviews alright, thanks for that! I just go to Geni to get info from there, and what I have found matches with my records. I'm so pleased you found that information about how Dingley Dell got its name. Does this mean that George chose its name?
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There were then only two fences between
Moorak and Port MacDonnell, and in order
to safeguard the stock he had purchased
Mr. Randall had been hobbled aitd belled.
----------------------------
.....and it was from the music of the birds
in the trees, mingled with the tinkling of
the be Ha of the hobbled sto&, that the
name ""Dingley Dell" was derived.
OCR is a useful tool at times, but it can present some quite comical images ;D
I claim no expertise in stock-rearing, but surely the stock would be hobbled and belled, rather than their proprietor?! My suggestion: 'Mr Randall had them hobbled and belled'.
The later words in bold should then read 'the bells of the hobbled stock'.
No criticism intended, it just caught my imagination :)
Carol
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It also caught my imagination, Carol :) Maybe I should be a bit worried that I understood it! Documents done with OCR can be hard to follow most of the time!
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The way it reads it looks like George chose the name which is not the story the Dingley Dell web site is telling. We need to find the title deeds for 1862 when George purchased it and 1864 when he "sold" it.
Regarding my quote, I did write it was a copy and paste. I just thought that was they way you spoke down there. ;D What are "guyns and wattles"?
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What are "guyns and wattles"?
Probably gums and wattles - types of tree. There are many varieties of both. Why not come and have a look ;D
Carol
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Ha ha ha, solidrock, why not take up Carol's invite and come down here and admire our gums and wattles - actually that sounds like roosters without teeth - we have them too, if you're interested ;)
I'm so pleased you think that George chose the name, because that's what I thought and hoped when I read your quote. I will see if I can find out anything about the title deeds.
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I’ve spent a lot of time trying to find the title deeds for Dingley Dell, but can’t find anything prior to 1922.
This is what I discovered on Trove:
1864 — March 8th — Gordon purchased Dingley Dell. —
Title Deeds.
1921 — Sept. 21st — Preliminary meeting of the Dingley
Dell Committee held. — Minute Book.
1921 — Oct. 3rd — Dingley Dell Restoration Committee
met S.A. Government representative. — Minute
Book.
1922 — Feb. 17th — Government of South Australia
purchased "Dingley Dell." — Title Deeds.
1864 Mar. 8 Dingley Dell transferred by George Randall (Transfer No. 7076 Title Deeds) to Adam
Lindsay Gordon, Gentleman. 101 Acres Approx)
(J.K. Moir Border Watch (Mount Gambier,Thursday 2 December 1937, page 1)
I’ve uploaded the Certificate of Title that I could find.
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What are "guyns and wattles"?
Probably gums and wattles - types of tree. There are many varieties of both. Why not come and have a look ;D
Carol
Could do I'm not far away. ;D
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Trying to make the image a bit bigger
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More documents :)
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I'm not very good at this, but trying again
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Thank you for making that title bigger, I was struggling with the first one. There are no names on it so it's not the transfer. I've searched SAILIS for Transfer No. 7076 Title Deeds but can't find them. I asked the Dingley Dell web site where they are but they have'nt replied which makes me think they don't want anyone to see them. The plot thickens. ???
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Here's the original about George and Dingley Dell in Trove.
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Here's the original about George and Dingley Dell in Trove.
Thanks so much solidrock, I'm so pleased to have this and have made a copy of it :)
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Thank you for making that title bigger, I was struggling with the first one. There are no names on it so it's not the transfer. I've searched SAILIS for Transfer No. 7076 Title Deeds but can't find them. I asked the Dingley Dell web site where they are but they have'nt replied which makes me think they don't want anyone to see them. The plot thickens. ???
Thanks for searching SAILIS, it's not an easy site to get around. I've searched the site thoroughly too and there's nothing on there relating to the Dingley Dell land prior to the Certificate of Title as above, dated 1922 around the same time as the government took the title over. There are no details of any transfers including the one George is said to have made to AL Gordon as you can see in the image. The plot certainly does thicken :o
I'm guessing you've already come across this, not that it's much help now: http://maps.sa.gov.au/heritagesearch/HeritageItem.aspx?p_heritageno=16331
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That was the series details search, this one is the dealing details
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The earliest mention I could find for him in the Mt Gambier district was in 1861.
He is offering a 30 acre property with an established orchard for sale. I think that
must be his old property at Turkey Gully near Strathalbyn, not some new property
he had developed at Mt Gambier.
One of the earliest steamboats on the River Murray was operated by a captain Randall,
but none of the mentions that I could find had his first name.
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There is a captain William Richard Randell...
http://www.murrayriver.com.au/paddleboats/murray-paddlesteamers/
Interesting, he was born in Devon...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randell
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The earliest mention I could find for him in the Mt Gambier district was in 1861.
He is offering a 30 acre property with an established orchard for sale. I think that
must be his old property at Turkey Gully near Strathalbyn, not some new property
he had developed at Mt Gambier.
One of the earliest steamboats on the River Murray was operated by a captain Randall,
but none of the mentions that I could find had his first name.
Thanks xiaolu, that's so interesting, I hadn't come across the sale of that property. The ship story has really got me stumped.
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There is a captain William Richard Randell...
http://www.murrayriver.com.au/paddleboats/murray-paddlesteamers/
Interesting, he was born in Devon...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randell
Thanks solidrock, it's certainly interesting. I had a look and can't find any match with our George :( I have searched and searched but can't find any reference to the ship story. What has me puzzled is there's no actual record of George's birth in any Australian documents such as his marriage certificate. His place of birth we've found is taken from what his neighbour stated for George's death certificate. I really can't see how our people came from a hairdresser and perfumer, but maybe I'm wrong. George's age on his marriage certificate doesn't match the birth date on the George we found either. If I could just find his birthdate, and place of birth on some document in this country then we'd have a definite clue. I know George married Ellen Janeway for sure because she's noted as my grandfather's mother on his birth certificate.
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Your having doubts about George again. ??? I'm sure we have the right man, it was his father that was hairdresser and perfumer, that does'nt mean George will follow. As for the age on wedding cert. I would take that with a pinch of salt, over the years I have seen so many wrong dates usually because they lied about their age. There is that merchant seaman record that I mentioned before but that does'nt give any definite clue's, born 1929 and lives in Derby. Have you checked all the convict records for the time, I had a quick look and did'nt find any. What else does it say on his death cert? Is there a headstone at his burial place? On the birth certs of his children by Ellen is there any additional info?
Sorry to many questions. Day off tomorrow, supplies day. ;D
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I've had a small seed of doubt about the George we found, even when my distant cousin first told me about him, but he does add up. I understand what you're saying about him probably lying about his age on the marriage certificate - he probably had his reasons. It's just that I can't find any connection for him to the sea. The family believed he came from Devon to Australia, but I can't find any Devon connection to our George.
My cousin sent for his death certificate but she found out that the information on the certificate was given by a neighbour who said George was born in Derby. My cousin felt certain this was our George too.
I don't think there's a headstone, but I'm not sure. It's just that his grave didn't show up in the memorials search, only in the cemetery burials record my cousin found.
The only information on my grandfather's (Walter) birth certificate is George's and Ellen's names, profession of father, and residence of parents.
I haven't checked all the convicts records - it's going to take a lot of time. I'll finish the family tree and sign up with Ancestry.com for a month because I have a German great grandfather on my mum's side to chase up. I want to compile as much information as I can before I sign up so I can get as many details as possible in that time.
Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow. Happy supplies day tomorrow ;D
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What clinched it for me was when you said George and Ellen had a child Martha Augusta, although I have not found any record or her birth yet.
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I agree with you, but I'd like to find a record of our George's birth date in a document in Australia to be absolutely sure we have the right one. I can't find a record of it anywhere and now I'm trying to find historical publican licences to see if it's recorded on his licences, but I'm not having much luck.
I've just found a note about Martha Augusta attached to the back of the information my distant cousin wrote about her and this may explain why we've had no luck finding her birth record. I quote from the note:
"In a hand written document found amongst personal papers after the death of Gladys Ruby Locke daughter of Walter Randall, (brother of Martha Augusta) it lists the birth dates of the children of George Randall and Ellen Janeway. Although some of the dates are not correct with the actual day, they are, on the whole, fairly accurate and in my opinion can serve as a guide where no details survived. It states that Martha Augusta Randall was born in Adelaide 21 August 1857. This year seems unlikely when you compare details on later documents (wedding, death certificates). It's more likely to have been 1851, particularly in light of the fact that no record of the birth is available from the pioneer index of South Australia. I was told that there had been a fire and some records from the Mt Barker area had been destroyed. This may account for the fact that no record for either Martha Augusta or her sister Ellen appears."
So it seems that some of the dates of the births of George and Ellen's children that my cousin has recorded have been taken from my Aunty Glady's notes.
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More about George: My brother called in yesterday and I asked him what he knew about George coming to Australia. He said George brought his father's ship out and sold it because his father hadn't given him any money. From what we were told, George was supposed to return to England with the ship. My brother also said George arrived in Fremantle, Western Australia. So I began searching for him there. The strange part is I can't find a record of George arriving on any passenger lists anywhere. I did find a convict record, have posted the image. And I found a listing in the newspaper, The Perth Gazette and Western Australian Journal for a schooner (Timbo) and its cargo being sold by a Mr Randall, image posted below. However, the dates don't match with what we know and on further investigation it appears that the name associated with the Timbo is C Randall.
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Theres a Martha Augusta Randall marrying John Melean, Victoria 1872. Could this be her?
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That's her! This is the record my cousin has: Married 1872, James John McLean at Seymour, Victoria.
You're so good at this - I couldn't find the marriage record when I searched.
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Perhaps you can get the cert. to make sure she is George's Martha. The convict I don't think is him.
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Thanks for that, I didn't think he was a convict either :)
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Yes it is her...
Name Martha Augusta Mclean
Mother Ellen
Father George
Death Liverpool, New South Wales 1940
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That's excellent! Thank you! I found her marriage record in the Victorian BDM, the same as you found I think, but can't see how to buy the certificate. I thought George's birth date and place of birth might be on it. I'll keep looking when I get a chance. I've neglected too much with looking for George's info.
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To buy the cert. click on image details, add to cart. $25.10
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This looks like John and Martha in 1891....
M Mclean
Australia, New South Wales, Census, 1891
Name M Mclean
Event Type Census
Event Date 1891
Event Place Goulburn, New South Wales, Australia
They had 2 other females with them, I'll try to find who they are.
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It does look like it's them :) Well I bought the certificate image and typical of this country's record keeping it only lists the parents' names and professions :( - it's too painful.
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This is on Ancestry but I can't view it, perhaps you can check it out...
Australia, Birth Index, 1788-1922
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish
Name Martha Augusta Randall
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Well at least we know Martha existed which is also more evidence in the bag that we have the right George. At least you can get your marriage certs online, the uk does'nt do that.
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Yes, her details match those my cousin has given me so we do know it's her for sure now. At least that's one thing, being able to download certificates, it's just a shame they didn't keep more detailed records - makes it hard.
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This is on Ancestry but I can't view it, perhaps you can check it out...
Australia, Birth Index, 1788-1922
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish
Name Martha Augusta Randall
I can't view much detail on there until I sign up. I want to get the family tree done before I do and it will take awhile.
I'm really disappointed I can't find a birth date for George on any of the documents in Australia, I really had high hopes for Martha's marriage certificate to at least have George's place of birth on it. What we have of him with the Rotten Row family must be him. I'm wondering now if the age on his marriage certificate - 27, should be 22 (like you previously suggested) - maybe the person who wrote the certificate was copying the information from a register and thought the 2 was a 7. One thing we have for sure is his daughter Martha's details now, which confirms she is indeed George's daughter. As for our family history, I just wanted to make sure that George of the Rotten Row family is our George. Everything else relating to the other side of the family has been well researched.
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You could dig up his bones and get a DNA test. ;D
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Now that's a thought! I'd say it's my last resort ;D
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Yes, her details match those my cousin has given me so we do know it's her for sure now. At least that's one thing, being able to download certificates, it's just a shame they didn't keep more detailed records - makes it hard.
It does look like it's them :) Well I bought the certificate image and typical of this country's record keeping it only lists the parents' names and professions :( - it's too painful.
I wonder what kind of details you were expecting on a marriage certificate.
Compared to many, especially those of UK, Australian certificates contain a remarkable amount of detail.
Unlikely you would find the bride's brother's birth date on any certificate.
Sue
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Yes, her details match those my cousin has given me so we do know it's her for sure now. At least that's one thing, being able to download certificates, it's just a shame they didn't keep more detailed records - makes it hard.
It does look like it's them :) Well I bought the certificate image and typical of this country's record keeping it only lists the parents' names and professions :( - it's too painful.
I wonder what kind of details you were expecting on a marriage certificate.
Compared to many, especially those of UK, Australian certificates contain a remarkable amount of detail.
Unlikely you would find the bride's brother's birth date on any certificate.
Sue
[/quote
We're not looking for the brides brothers birth date. ::) ???
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What is it you need from Ancestry?
Sue
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Re the ship Timbo...
TIMBO Brigantine 123 tons. Built Littlehampton, Sussex 1835. Traded
to Western Australia I843-44. Departed Hobart 11 March 1850 for California. Returned to port 2 I March 1850 due to misunder-standing between captain and owner. Vessel overloaded and part of cargo discharged. Departed 23 March 1850 for San Francisco.
Arrived San Francisco 1 July 1850, 100 days, 20 passengers. Returned to Hobart from San Francisco 6 December 1850. Departed Hobart 6 February 1851 for Honolulu, 20 tons flour, potatoes & grain, 4 passengers. Returned to Australia from Honolulu.
Hulked and broken up Melbourne 1856.
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Re the ship Timbo...
TIMBO Brigantine 123 tons. Built Littlehampton, Sussex 1835. Traded
to Western Australia I843-44. Departed Hobart 11 March 1850 for California. Returned to port 2 I March 1850 due to misunder-standing between captain and owner. Vessel overloaded and part of cargo discharged. Departed 23 March 1850 for San Francisco.
Arrived San Francisco 1 July 1850, 100 days, 20 passengers. Returned to Hobart from San Francisco 6 December 1850. Departed Hobart 6 February 1851 for Honolulu, 20 tons flour, potatoes & grain, 4 passengers. Returned to Australia from Honolulu.
Hulked and broken up Melbourne 1856.
Great information thanks! After I saw the For Sale ad for it and some information with new names in charge I did wonder if it had anything to do with George and he sold it and the new owner did the rest of the trading, but the dates don't work out - too early for George I would think. Looks like Timbo is out of the picture then with what you've found out.
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Jaunay's guide
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
This may help in your decisions to purchase Australian BMD certificates.
Of course accuracy of information will always depend on the honesty and/or knowledge of those giving it ;D
Sue
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Jaunay's guide
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
This may help in your decisions to purchase Australian BMD certificates.
Of course accuracy of information will always depend on the honesty and/or knowledge of those giving it ;D
Sue
Thanks Sue, I did check on that website before I bought the certificate, I was just hoping that somehow George's birthplace at least may be on it, I know it was false hope. I'm not worried about purchasing the certificate, we needed to prove that Martha was George's daughter and it did that, which is great. I just get frustrated when I can't find information to match ages and birth dates.
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Solidrock, look what I found in the Victorian BDM records - George's age when he died. The neighbour who gave the statement may have thought George looked older than he was or George was born earlier than we think :)
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Found a baptism for
Martha Augusta Randall
04 Jan 1831
Parents George & Martha Augusta Randall
All Saints, Derby
Abode - Corn Market
Profession - Hairdresser
Annie
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Found a baptism for
Martha Augusta Randall
04 Jan 1831
Parents George & Martha Augusta Randall
All Saints, Derby
Annie
Hi Rosinish, we've already got that one. Now if you could find one for Martha Augusta Randall c1851 Australia that would be brill. ;D
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Hi Belle. Perhaps the neighbour did'nt know George all that well, I'm still going with 1828. ;D
I think you mentioned a German ancestor on your mothers side, was he Hermann Bollmann?
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Hi Rosinish, we've already got that one. Now if you could find one for Martha Augusta Randall c1851 Australia that would be brill. ;D
Sorry, didn't realise, was looking for young Martha & to be honest I was quicker to type the details (just in case) rather than scroll through everything as I'm kind of lost with what's already been found ::)
Annie
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Hi Rosinish, we've already got that one. Now if you could find one for Martha Augusta Randall c1851 Australia that would be brill. ;D
Sorry, didn't realise, was looking for young Martha & to be honest I was quicker to type the details (just in case) rather than scroll through everything as I'm kind of lost with what's already been found ::)
Annie
We're all lost. ;D
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Is it possible George could have been in Tasmania at some time?
I found a Martha Augusta b1853 & d1853 Launceston although the mother was Francis Bishop (maybe just coincidence) but was wondering if George may have been a bigamist ???
A coincidence too there's a Launceston (Cornwall/Devon)!
Annie
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Is it possible George could have been in Tasmania at some time?
I found a Martha Augusta b1853 & d1853 Launceston although the mother was Francis Bishop (maybe just coincidence) but was wondering if George may have been a bigamist ???
A coincidence too there's a Launceston (Cornwall/Devon)!
Annie
I found that one as well but I did'nt want to complicate matters just yet but its a thought and if he was in Tasmania he could have been a convict. He married Ellen in 1850, their first recorded child was Ellen in 1852 but there is Martha Augusta who we have not yet found and she is a key link to the family line of names.
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Is it possible George could have been in Tasmania at some time?
I found a Martha Augusta b1853 & d1853 Launceston although the mother was Francis Bishop (maybe just coincidence) but was wondering if George may have been a bigamist ???
A coincidence too there's a Launceston (Cornwall/Devon)!
Annie
I found that one as well but I did'nt want to complicate matters just yet but its a thought and if he was in Tasmania he could have been a convict. He married Ellen in 1850, their first recorded child was Ellen in 1852 but there is Martha Augusta who we have not yet found and she is a key link to the family line of names.
Hi solidrock, I thought we had found Martha Augusta because of her marriage certificate with her maiden name, Randall, and her parents names, George Randall and Ellen Janeway. Are you talking about her birth certificate?
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Still looking for her birth ;)
Annie
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its a thought and if he was in Tasmania he could have been a convict. He married Ellen in 1850, their first recorded child was Ellen in 1852 but there is Martha Augusta who we have not yet found and she is a key link to the family line of names.
Yes, I do realise this but you know how the mind works in genealogy & as you say, he could have been a convict which is what I was wondering & with the name & dates, it just sort of jumped out ;D
Annie
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Hi Belle. Perhaps the neighbour did'nt know George all that well, I'm still going with 1828. ;D
I think you mentioned a German ancestor on your mothers side, was he Hermann Bollmann?
Looks like it's the 1828 one we need to go with, I know. My great grandfather on my mum's side is Hermann Bollmann. I have his death certificate and place of birth, - Bremerhaven, Germany, and only his father's surname, Bollmann and profession, roper maker, are on it. I would like to trace Hermann's parents etc if I can.
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I agree with you, but I'd like to find a record of our George's birth date in a document in Australia to be absolutely sure we have the right one. I can't find a record of it anywhere and now I'm trying to find historical publican licences to see if it's recorded on his licences, but I'm not having much luck.
I've just found a note about Martha Augusta attached to the back of the information my distant cousin wrote about her and this may explain why we've had no luck finding her birth record. I quote from the note:
"In a hand written document found amongst personal papers after the death of Gladys Ruby Locke daughter of Walter Randall, (brother of Martha Augusta) it lists the birth dates of the children of George Randall and Ellen Janeway. Although some of the dates are not correct with the actual day, they are, on the whole, fairly accurate and in my opinion can serve as a guide where no details survived. It states that Martha Augusta Randall was born in Adelaide 21 August 1857. This year seems unlikely when you compare details on later documents (wedding, death certificates). It's more likely to have been 1851, particularly in light of the fact that no record of the birth is available from the pioneer index of South Australia. I was told that there had been a fire and some records from the Mt Barker area had been destroyed. This may account for the fact that no record for either Martha Augusta or her sister Ellen appears."
So it seems that some of the dates of the births of George and Ellen's children that my cousin has recorded have been taken from my Aunty Glady's notes.
Annie, this may be the reason why we can't find Martha's birth record :)
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There's a George born to a George & Martha Augusta at Tower Hamlets, London (UK) who could fit but the fathers' job was a Bricklayer i.e. would he have changed occ. from Bricklayer to Hairdresser :-\
I wonder if leaving forename out may bring up something &/or could Martha have been illegitimate & mothers m/s :-\ Anything is worth chasing.
Annie
Add, I used a large window in my search 1850 +/- 10
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??? ???
Ann Randall
30 Jan 1855
South Australia
Registration Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Father George Randall
Mother Helen Janeway
Page Number 95
Volume Number 5
Annie
Add, no image i.e. you'd need to purchase
Add, I see you have her ::)
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Hi Belle, The reason why I did'nt mention the Tasmania birth before was we already have Martha's marriage with George as her father. A remote possibility is that George had an affair with this Bishop woman and had 1 child which they named Martha Augusta who died at or just after birth. ;D
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Nothing would surprise me - re George having an affair :o
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Hermann Bollmann. born 5 Nov 1844 • Lesum, Hannover, Lower Saxony, Germany
Father Johann Bollmann. Mother Metta Wismer.
Hermann was a sailor.
Bremen, Germany Ships Crew Lists, 1815-1917
Name Hermann Bollmann
Birth Grohn 1844
Military 22/Okt/1863
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Blimey that's awesome! He was a sailor, and we still have a large china bowl and his feather pillow he brought out from Germany with him. Thank you so much, you're a genius! ;D
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That's funny (as in hilarious), I didn't actually write Blimey - I wrote something else but it wasn't swearing :)
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Whats wrong with blimey, my family always used that word or Cor blimey and Blimey O'Reilly. ;D
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Yeah, but you're a Pom ;) I'm not sure what an Aussie would say these days - we don't use crikey much now. What I thought was hilarious was that it was automatically changed and I didn't think there was anything wrong with what I wrote: Oh my ... last bit starts with a capital G and it's not gum ;D
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Their children’s names, and place and date of birth:
Ellen, Strathalbyn 16.9.1852
Annie, Strathalbyn 30.01.1855
George, Turkey Gully, 14.10.1856
Henry, Mt Gambier, 15.6.1859
Richard, Pt MacDonnell, 20.03.1861
Walter, Pt MacDonnell, 29.4.1863
Harriett Cooper, Allensford, 25.10.1865
Ellen had more children to Joseph Ayre
In the digitised documents of administration in the estate of George RANDALL who died intestate in 1889,
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
it is noted he left his wife and family "about 30 years ago" The number of children is not specified.
This is a little more information than the news item, giving a date for the desertion.
If it is accurate, then the last few children of Ellen (nee JANEWAY) were perhaps not his.
Sue
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Thanks Sue, but "about thirty years ago" is incorrect. It was about 19 years ago according to other credible information. Great to have that link though, I was able to download the image of the probate file for George :)
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Yes,
Quite probably a case of misinformation or guesswork on the part of the police force witness cited.
The age of the deceased on the transcribed death certificate was probably arrived at in a similar way.
Sue
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Henry Randall 1859..
I think Henry was on the ship WALLOWRA
32 SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- MRS
36 SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- MR
I SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- INFANT WITH
Now searching for more detailed passenger list.
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George Randall, slaughtering license, Kondoparinga district ( which is next to Strathalbyn ), 1855. Further down also Nicholas Coad, who may be connected with
the marriage witness.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158104996
Information about the witness on the marriage certificate JANEWAY/RANDALL
Biographical Index South Australia
COAD, Robert. Parents Nicholas and Sarah Jane. Born 12/1/1832 Con(?) England, died 15/11/1913 Strathalbyn. Arrived 1839 per "Cleveland".Occ. Farmer, leather and wool worker. Residence New Hamburg. Religion Methodist.
Married 28/2/1856, Adelaide to Eliza nee TURNER.. Her parents James and Sarah.
About eight children are listed to them and can be given if required.
About the other witness Margaret McLean. Of interest, Charles and Harriett JANEWAY had daughters who married MCLEAN’s. Ann and Jane are listed on BISA.
Sue
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Peter Dowding PRANKERD was born in England and arrived in South Australia from NSW in 1850.
He was a land agent and my small research seems to show he bought land at government land sales and sold it on.
I believe this shows the original acquisition of lot 138 at MacDonnell by Peter Downing PRANKERD. April 1861
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90031980
Therefore presumably, RANDALL bought it from him after April 1861 and it was transferred to GORDON in 1864
Sue
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Yes,
Quite probably a case of misinformation or guesswork on the part of the police force witness cited.
The age of the deceased on the transcribed death certificate was probably arrived at in a similar way.
Sue
I agree with you about misinformation and guesswork, it seems to have been accepted back then :)
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Henry Randall 1859..
I think Henry was on the ship WALLOWRA
32 SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- MRS
36 SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- MR
I SEP 1895 PT ADELAIDE SEP 1895 2 WALLOWRA RANDALL, ---- INFANT WITH
Now searching for more detailed passenger list.
That's interesting, you've done well! It's a pity they didn't keep more detailed records. I've had a terrible time trying to find our George on passenger lists, maybe he isn't on any of them.
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George Randall, slaughtering license, Kondoparinga district ( which is next to Strathalbyn ), 1855. Further down also Nicholas Coad, who may be connected with
the marriage witness.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158104996
Information about the witness on the marriage certificate JANEWAY/RANDALL
Biographical Index South Australia
COAD, Robert. Parents Nicholas and Sarah Jane. Born 12/1/1832 Con(?) England, died 15/11/1913 Strathalbyn. Arrived 1839 per "Cleveland".Occ. Farmer, leather and wool worker. Residence New Hamburg. Religion Methodist.
Married 28/2/1856, Adelaide to Eliza nee TURNER.. Her parents James and Sarah.
About eight children are listed to them and can be given if required.
About the other witness Margaret McLean. Of interest, Charles and Harriett JANEWAY had daughters who married MCLEAN’s. Ann and Jane are listed on BISA.
Sue
Thanks so much Sue, that's very helpful information! Will make a note of it.
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Peter Dowding PRANKERD was born in England and arrived in South Australia from NSW in 1850.
He was a land agent and my small research seems to show he bought land at government land sales and sold it on.
I believe this shows the original acquisition of lot 138 at MacDonnell by Peter Downing PRANKERD. April 1861
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90031980
Therefore presumably, RANDALL bought it from him after April 1861 and it was transferred to GORDON in 1864
Sue
This is great information, and I have read that George built Dingley Dell cottage 2 years prior to transferring the property to Gordon so that could fit in with what you found. Thanks!
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It does look like it's them :) Well I bought the certificate image and typical of this country's record keeping it only lists the parents' names and professions :( - it's too painful.
That's a ridiculous complaint.
On the previous post you were expecting to see the father's actual date of birth on a daughter's marriage certificate ?
I have never seen that, anywhere. Your expectation is delusional.
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xiaolu, I don't know what you've been accustomed to on other sites, but on RootsChat we don't abuse each other with such language as 'ridiculous' or 'delusional'. You might consider editing your comment; you can do so up to 24 hours after posting.
Carol
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xiaolu there are nicer ways of putting your point accross. I was brought up with the expression that if you can not say anything nice or constructive say nothing at all.
Sarah
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George Randall & Ellen Janeway are my 3*GGrandparents. George is buried in Strathmerton, Victoria. Ellen is buried in Kalgoorlie, WA and had 2 children to Joseph Ayre.
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George Randall & Ellen Janeway are my 3*GGrandparents. George is buried in Strathmerton, Victoria. Ellen is buried in Kalgoorlie, WA and had 2 children to Joseph Ayre.
Thanks so much tonyros. George and Ellen are my great grandparents. I have a lot of information for them (thanks to help from members on here, especially solidrock), however, we haven't been able to find any information on how George arrived in Australia. The family story of how he did arrive doesn't match his place of birth or where he lived before he came out. It's very frustrating to say the least!
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Hi, Thanks for the response. The info I have on George is that he arrived in Australia in 1847 aboard "The Maitland", as an EXILE, i.e. from Pentonville where he was given a 7 year sentence for larceny. I believe he was 21 at the time and was a Bricklayer by trade but learnt Tailoring in prison. You can contact me My connection is through Ann Randall m William Godfrey.
Kind regards,
...Tony Jones
Melbourne, Aust
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The following should help re EXILES...
In 1851 Victoria (Port Phillip District) separated from New South Wales. Apart from the early attempts at settlement, the only convicts sent directly to Victoria from Britain were about 1,750 convicts known as the 'Exiles'. They arrived between 1844 and 1849. They were also referred to as the 'Pentonvillians' because most of them came from Pentonville Probationary Prison in England.
Regards...Tony
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Hi Tony, Sorry for the late reply, such a lot going on here. This is such interesting information you've given me, different from the family story of how George arrived here. Thanks also for the information about the Exiles. My grandfather is Walter Randall, son of George Randall and Ellen Janeway. My grandfather remembered playing on the floor at Dingley Dell when is was a small child.
Kind regards,
Belle, Queensland
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Hello Great Aunt Belle,
Thank you all for following up the ancestry of the Randall family, I have just delved into this site this evening after gaining access to the .ged ancestry files and finding links to this forum. My father had them sitting on the family laptop for quite a while until I found them.
Kind regards,
Lukas, NSW