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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: adam_in_SW_Middx on Sunday 20 May 18 17:21 BST (UK)
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Hi all!
I have a marriage registration (but no Kingston marriages parish records - does anyone have access to look at these...) and a +/- 1 year birth date and exact death date for Frances Barnes (her married name). Her maiden name is Frances or Fanny Goldsmith. Where was she born and to whom? (does anyone have access to London parishes birth registers)? The main census contender (on 8/6/1841) does not seem to give birthplaces unless anyone has a full transcript:
"Institution" Drury Lane, St Giles in the Fields
Mary Goldsmith F 55-59 Middlesex
Mary Goldsmith F 15-19 Middlesex
Fanny Goldsmith F 15-19 Middlesex
Joseph Garratt M 25-29
Robt Painter M 15-19
"Institution" Penny Fields All Saints Poplar
[many others and...]
John Parr M 35-39 Not Known
Geo Webster M 60-64 Scotland
John Ryan M 25-29 Not Known
Fanny Goldsmith F 16-20 Middlesex
This is not going to be easy. It will require an expert like you! as the 1851 census puts her birthplace down as London and she did not live until the 1861 census.
Helpful basics:
Thomas Barnes, a carpenter
1819 Chertsey, Surrey – 1864 Staines, Middx
lived single in 1841 (wife had first child early 1843) and was with Mary Gardner in Church Street Staines whilst a carpenter's apprentice, simy. William Gardner & Joseph Wooden
wife:
Frances
1823 +/- 1 year"London" – 1854 Staines, Middx
I have scoured the register index and found the marriage, having carefully ruled out two feasible others by looking at censuses.
Marriage Dec Qtr 1841 : Kingston 4 199
BARNES Thomas
GOLDSMITH Fanny
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I have scoured the register index and found the marriage, having carefully ruled out two feasible others by looking at censuses.
Marriage Dec Qtr 1841 : Kingston 4 199
BARNES Thomas
GOLDSMITH Fanny
24 October 1841 at Hampton, Middlesex
Thomas Barnes, of full age, Bachelor, Sawyer, residence Hampton, father Thomas Barnes, Sawyer
+
Fanny Goldsmith, of full age, Spinster, residence Hampton, father Edward Goldsmith, Servant
after Banns
Thomas marked, Fanny signed
wit L Smith, J V Richardson ? (not sure about those initials!)
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Have you actually got the marriage certificate as that would give you her father's name?
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It's Edward on that Hampton marriage.
So far the only baptism I can come up with is at St Margaret Westminster in 1822
Bap 11 August
born 19 Jany 1822
Fanny
Dr. of Edwin + Frances Goldsmith
abode Gardeners Lane
father a Servant
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There's a couple of baptisms at Staines (near to Hampton) to Edward + Frances Goldsmith
Ann in 1828
Edward in 1834
Father a Butler
So Edwin + Edward may be the same person perhaps.
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A burial at Staines, 21 Feb 1834, Edward Goldsmith, age 47. Abode Staines.
So that may be the end of the butler.
There's a marriage at Hanwell, 12 Sep 1836
James Minton, Bachelor
+
Frances Goldsmith, Widow
wit by James Beldon, Catherine Beldon
No idea at the moment if these are the people you are looking for!
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Staines in 1841
The Minton/Goldsmith family!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVT-HQV
Horribly difficult to read the writing on the original. It may say Frans Goldsmeeth (or Goldsmith). Age 15.
But it looks promising.
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Baptism of James Minten at Staines, 14 January 1838
Parents James + Frances, father a Labourer.
Possible birth reg
Dec 1837 Staines vol 3 page 203
Minton, James
mother Gunning
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The nearest I can find with that name for a first marriage is
Edward Goldsmith + Frances Gurney
16 January 1825, St James Westminster
That is of course a few years after the baptism of Frances at St Margaret.
And there are a couple more baptisms indexed at St Margaret (which I haven't seen) to Edward + Frances Goldsmith, namely George in 1824 and Charles in 1826. Neither of whom we see in Staines in 1841.
EDIT - I think George and Charles may be buried at St Margaret, having died as infants. Only going on the index again though.
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This is the best family history research I have come across, thank you so much as it adds a lot to my family history and makes for my only truly local roots!!!! ;) An scholar and a gent you are Sir, much appreciated!
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Excellent work jonw65.
1861 it appears Frances is still alive, down as FRANCIS Minton 1798 Wesrminster.
A Widow, occp Charwoman.
Cant find her in 1851 Census.
Aaah found her 1871 lodging in Staines;
James Harris, 72
Susannah Harris, 65
Eliza Rump, 16
Sophia Rump, 16
George Rump, 14
Alfred Rump, 9
Francis MENTON, 74, Lodger, Widow, no employment, born London*******
Death Reg for Frances Minton Dec 1873 Staines age 75 (FreeBMD)
And from GRO;
Death Reg;
MINTON, JAMES, age 62
GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in STAINES Volume 03A Page 4
Trish :)
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:o you have done well on the rest of her life and that I found yesterday rapidly on familysearch; given she had so many children who in turn averaged about 8 children (including mortalities) and into the next generations into the early 1900s and so on they have many hundreds of descendants.
The question I cannot find is now this new Frances Gurney who lived to 75 (unlike her daughter my ancestor Frances who lived to 32), who were her parents? This Berks/Bucks family must be discounted and I note a certain "Pauline Batterby" researched that contemporary Frances Gurney that she died in Shoreditch and wrongly put in the St James's Westminster marriage to Goldsmith which is totally misleading. I think lowly Westminster records might be dry for births in that 1790s period, I don't know.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=paulbatt&id=I00608 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=paulbatt&id=I00608)
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I tried to find Frances Gurney/Gunning c 1798-1800 ish also with no luck.
Being in Australia unless records are on-line I cant help with Westminster queries. Hopefully someone else can :)
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1841 Staines has the 2x Frances (Minten/Goldsmeeth) written as
"Fran s" short for Frances.
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True I am guessing whoever regularly transcribes that as Francis is pretty ignorant!
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whoever regularly transcribes that as Francis is pretty ignorant!
there are nicer and more constructive ways of putting your point across..it is more helpful to add information that helps everyone.
:)
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Fine. Pre 1911 ( esp.) 6-letter plus names may have been abbreviated and then mauled by current most popular usually free databases. This is compounded by use of copperplate joined up superscript and other long-lost practices but Which are to scholars well known and quickly researchable
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Hi Adam
Welcome back to Rootschat. According to your posting profile, it looks like you've had a 10 year sabbatical away from here.
Might I suggest you take a moment to reacquaint yourself with our help and introduction pages as things have most probably moved on since your last posts in 2008 unless you've been keeping an eye on the proceedings here without posting.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/intro.php
and this
It is hoped that our members are courteous and polite to each other, making allowances for:
those who are new to genealogy and don't know the "obvious".
There are people joining Rootschat everyday with varying degrees of genealogical proficiency who benefit greatly from the snippets on information found in topics here.
Dawn