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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: mlmcholm on Thursday 17 May 18 18:22 BST (UK)
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Hi. Can anyone please do a lookup for me for Mary Green born abt 1848 Chorlton in the 1851 census.I am having huge problems establishing a marriage for her parents, and was wondering if there was another Mary listed in that area. I have found a birth for a Mary with mmn as Mahon. My Green family were listed as being at Taylor's court in 1851, father John, mother Catherine, siblings John and Thomas. I have recently got Thomas' birth cert with mmn as Mack. John also has a listing with mmn Mack but not Mary. Any help would be terrific. Many thanks
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Just to say, there is a death in June quarter 1849 for a Mary Green 0 yrs.
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Have you discounted the marriage I found in your other thread?
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Hi heywood. No I haven't. I still think there are so many coincidences with the Mahon connection. Just trying to find some definite info to conclude this. It's driving me crazy!
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John’s birth certificate might give an address to compare with their marriage certificate. It is probably unlikely but you never know.
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heywood another thing I found recently was the baptism for Michael in 1854 at St Wilfrids and yet again mmn Mahon. Will I ever get to the bottom of it!
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John Green married Catherine Mahon Sep 1844 Manchester 20 501
According to Lancs BMD they married at Manchester Collegiate.
Is it possible that on the birth refs the Registrar may have misheard/misunderstood the Irich Accent when hearing the name Mahon and put down Mack instead?
Emeltom
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For some thought ...
1840 marriage
Ann Mahon father Michael to John Keefe both of 10 Anvil Street.
I think Catherine was at 15 Bk Anvil Street
1841 570/34/15
John and Ann Keefe living in Forge Street (parallel with Anvil Street).
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Emeltom I'm hoping that's the answer. What's the possibility of 2 families having children of the same name and order of birth and having parents of the same name? And, living in the same locality. Surely it's more than a coincidence. I'll order Johns birth cert anyway.
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I would say that is the case. The6 May have referred to themselves as McMahon sometimes and only the Mack was heard.
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1841
HO107/570/21/F7/p7
James Leigh Street, Manchester
Catherine Mahon 15 Ireland
Catherine Mahon 10 Ireland
Owen Mahon 15 Ireland
They are living with a Michael Kelly and family.
I can only find 1 John Green born Ireland in the Manchester area
HO107/580/10/F31/p12
Medlock Street, Chorlton, Manchester
John Green 50
Ctherine Green 45
Ellen Green 15
John Green 15
Matthew Green 10
Cather. Green 5
All born Ireland
Emeltom
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I wondered about that Mahon family too emeltom.
There is a marriage for Owen Mahon 1843 of James Street to Ellen White. His father is Michael but he is full age which seems a bit wrong ... :-\
Then there is a marriage in 1848 Owen Mahon, 23 yrs a widower but father is John. :-\
John Green looks interesting too.
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Thanks everyone. Emeltom, the 1841 census is interesting. Both John Green and Catherine Mahon were listed as minors on their marriage in 1844
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Just to confuse matters, heywood and Emeltom, last night found another Green birth mmn Mahon, Ellen in 1863. She is not on my 1871 census in Newchurch. There is a death on lancs bmd for an Ellen in 1864 age 0. Could this be her? Can anyone find her in 1871 census, possibly with parents in order to discount this. Just so many coincidences! Many thanks again.
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It looks very likely but you would need the birth certificate.
I can’t see anything on Catholic records nor anything in Manchester burials.
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last night found another Green birth mmn Mahon, Ellen in 1863.
Where did you get this info from?
Mary :)
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Mary8 it was on lancashirebmd
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It's also on the Gro site. Seo 1863 Chorlton 8c 635 mmn Mahon.
There is another Ellen Green born Mar 1864 Chorlton 8c 592 mmn Tyning but I can't find her in 1871 either.
Emeltom
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It's also on the Gro site. Seo 1863 Chorlton 8c 635 mmn Mahon.
There is another Ellen Green born Mar 1864 Chorlton 8c 592 mmn Tyning but I can't find her in 1871 either.
Emeltom
It could be her and only the certificate would tell us.
Mary Ann Tyning married George Green in 1863. There is a death for Mary Ann Green, 23 yrs, in the same quarter as baby Ellen. Poor George was a widower.
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Don't know if I'm on to something here. Just found a 1851 census transcript on familysearch for Mary Mahon born 1816. Underneath the name it says in brackets 'McMahon' address it gives as Forge st. Can anyone access the document to see if it says McMahon please? Given the naming pattern, Mary was John and Catherine's first daughter. Fingers crossed. Thank you
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Not your Mary Mahon as she is the wife of a Bernard Mahon(McMahon). Not sure where the McMahon comes from as the image clearly shows the name as Mahon - no Mc anywhere.
Emeltom
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Emeltom Oh no! But thanks for taking the time.
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Emeltom and heywood. I have found a baptism for Mary Green 1846 at St Wilfrids that may explain the death in 1847 and the second daughter being called Mary born 1848. Can anyone access the record for me to establish whether or not it is my family. If there's an address, it would be a bonus. Many thanks for all your help with this.
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You could try contacting member, Deer243 by pm.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728005.0
Just noticed that you have posted there.
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Hi, really hoping I have stumbled on my family.....
Catherine Mahon was mentioned as living with Michael Kelly and his family on one of the comments in this thread. I will look deeper because I am the great, great, great grandaughter of Michael Kelly who married Catherine Mahon, then they had a son John in 1835. But I will have to look at the census docs that you have posted.
Its realy weird that we know John Kelly and his father being MIchael Kelly but not much else. John Kelly married Anna Fox in 1857, they moved to Australia in 1861. I believe Michael Kelly was already in Australia as a convict. But the locations always seem to be in question. Apparentely John was baptised in Westmeath, but Michael was born in Athlone, lived in Longford, with mention of Ardagh Moydow, Moyvore, Roscommon, Mullingar and randomly Dublin. They were all RC accoding to the records I have found (baptisms, army docs).
Wondering if we are all in the same mixed up family tree. I have Greens in mine too.
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How interesting! Since my initial post I have found that my Catherine Mahon married John Green in Manchester 1844. Later in the 1881 England Census in Burnley, being a widower, he lists his birthplace as Longford. Catherine died in Bacup in 1874 age 44. This leads me to believe that the 1841 census in Manchester, my Catherine was the one aged 10.
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I honestly hope I don't offend, I know we are ALL searching for our family BUT I MAY have stumbled on something. I found the names like Kelly, Mahon, Green on paperwork for Strokestown - Roscommon area. It was awful. One landowner sent his whole estates workers to canada because it was cheaper than paying them, he couldnt afford it.
I KNOW my ggg Grandfather was Michael Kelly, born in Athlone c1806. Married Catherine Mahon, had my gg grandfather John in 1836. BUT... Michael disappears around 1840. John has a sister born c1838.
I thinkn i have found Michael on paperwork in Strokestown (I KNEW he was born in Athlone, which depending on where you look is Roscommon or Westmeath). I thought Michael was a convict and shipped off to Australia, still a possiblity.
BUT Strokestown was full of Irish farmers and labourers just trying to earn enough to feed their family and we all know about the famine. One homeowner shipped his whole labour force to Canada?? because it was cheaper than paying them to stay. Lots of Irish were leaving by the late 1830s because there was not enough food.
So back to my Michael Kelly - he is IN Strokestown/Athlone/Roscommon and in Westmeath his son John is baptised in 1836. Next baby 1828 and then Michael disappears around 1840 - maybe in Manchester? maybe a convict?
I know there were a lot of Irish who moved to England just so they could survive, even though they lived in slums in England, apparently it was better than living in Ireland, it would have been horrendous.
But that also means that families that knew each other in Ireland, would probably stick together in England, share a house etc,They lived in overcrowded houses in slums, but they would have looked after each other because they are family or friends from the same area of Ireland. I know they did what they did to survive, I know that means I have family who are convicts and transported, but the names from Strokestown like Kelly, Green, Mahon etc are the same names on some of the census documents in Manchester, maybe the Manchester families are not just husband and wife, but cousins and in laws etc so they could stick together? Maybe thats why I am getting confused.
Who knows?
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You really could be on to something here. You are right that the families did stick together. Where does your Green family fit in to this? Co Roscommon is an adjacent county to that of Longford. I have never found a conclusive bapt for my John Green born abt 1826 there. The family were living in a district of Manchester called ‘Little Ireland’, living conditions were horrendous. The area is well documented.
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Oh phew, I was stressing I may upset someone.
I can't find my ggg grandparents definite details, so really trying to think out of the box, but using facts from history in the area.
We KNOW the industrial revolution and poverty and slums were across the UK. BUT the families in Ireland were suffering the most.
SO, if you are in the Kelly family (me), I may have 20 people - uncles, cousins, dad, etc that can leave Ireland and work, some could have gone to Scotland, some to England. BUT the ones who went to England, if Mike was in Manchester, I wonder if more of his family went further into England all the way to Liverpool depending on their skills.
So the families of Longford, Roscommon, Strokestown are ALL in the same are, imagine if 2 of my Kellys were teens, they went with a family of Greens who have the parents and tiny kids, they had the community support because they knew each other but they also built a relay network too - the family in Liverpool give the money to the cousin in wherever until the money reaches Manchester and then goes to Ireland.
Families were desperate - they were starving and their babies were dying from hunger. But our ancestors were clever, with or without formal schooling and literacy, we had incredible ancestors who HAD to be problem solvers - their lives depended on it. We look at what they achieved when they lived abroad. I noticed random families stuck with my Kelly ancestors when they came to AUstralia, but now I think it was their culture to support each other, they had to. Imagine being in a new country trying to build a house, with 8 children, farm for food etc. NO one person could do that, I feel the families would have supported each others farms too, especially if the wife is having a few days off to have a baby :) What if someone was sick? Work had to be done, so they helped each other.
By having the families in Roscommon or wherever, there were lots of families, I wonder if they mixed up the families to spread the risk for wages, some strong young men go to the coal mines in England, but some of the older (haha 40) and people with young children go to Manchester. So some of the Greens, the Kellys etc went mining, some of the Greens and Kellys went to Manchester. They were ALL the same community and came down to a core of a few families - even if its ten families, its still a small amount of families.
BUT.... when we mix the families, we may need to use an open mind to know that the 5 Green family members on the census may NOT be husband, wife etc, it could be brother, sister, cousin, sister in law etc. It means we need to scrutinise the census to find the connections. There would definitely be families who are husband, wife and children but not all of them, there could be an extra sister or brother of the family head on the census. It would have been a way to spend time as a family and community, keep up with whats happening in the families and home in Ireland and around England but also giving their families the best opportunity to survive. Some jobs would have received higher wages, but come with more danger. So basically spreading the risk and putting the stronger people in jobs where they could earn more. Maybe creating a relay line of workers so getting the money from the south of England to Ireland was NOT the hours of travel, but simply visiting the next town, then that person took the money to the next village, so no real down time from work.