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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Chris Hobley on Sunday 13 May 18 22:56 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
My great-grandmother was Maude Cecilia White, mother of Cecilia V White and James Charles White. She was born in Belvedere Road, Lambeth, London in or around 1860, and subsequently moved to Brighton, Sussex. The problem is that her daughter (my maternal grandmother) moved to Africa and died when my mother was around 15, so there are only sketchy records as to:
a) presumably, though not definitely, a Mr White, Maude's husband; and
b) Maude's maiden name and her family.
A distant relative apparently "escaped from the French Revolution" which may account for the lack of joy I have had (apart from Census records for 1891,'91 and 1911), and I have toyed with the idea that her name may have been Blanc or le Blanc at some stage - but other than that I am at a dead end.
My mother (now 94) was much taken with the fact that I was even able to find Maude's name - which she never knew - but if anyone has any ideas as to where I could look next I'd really appreciate them.
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When and where were Cecelia and James born?
What was Cecelia's full middle name?
When and where did Cecelia marry? Any fathers name shown on her marriage cert?
When did Maude die? Was it in Sussex?
Maude C White aged 66 March qtr 1927 Brighton Volume 2b Page 337
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Likely birth registration is as Maude Cecilia Rowland, Jun qtr 1860 Lambeth (mmn Haselgrove).
She has a younger brother in the White household, Charlie C. Rowland, 12 b Richmond, in the 1891 census.
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Births March qtr 1879
Charles Clinton Rowland Richmond, S. 2a 339 mmn Hazelgrove
No birth reg for Cecilia V or James
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Maude and Charles parents marriage
Marriages March qtr 1860
Jane Augusta Haselgrove/George Charles Rowland Lambeth 1d 492
Can't find a White/Rowland marriage but 1891 shows Maude as married and 1901 as widowed
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I see from later records that James’ middle name was Charles. What did Cecilia’s middle initial V stand for?
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Confusingly, Maude had a sister named Cecilia Victoria Rowland (b 1874 Richmond).
I can’t see Maude anywhere in 1881. I wonder whether she married somewhere other than England/Wales?
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Is this Cecilia's marriage?
Cecilia White?Robert S Proctor June qtr 1919 Eastbourne 2B 193
If so - buying a copy of the marriage cert may give a fathers name/occupation
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Just a thought but...
Could Cecilia & Maude (sisters) be the same person, maybe didn't like her name?
Annie
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Looks like Maude was well on the way when her parents married on 19 March 1860 at Holy Trinity Church, Lambeth.
George Charles Rowland bachelor, vocalist* of 21 Crozier St. Father: James Rowland, tailor.
Jane Augusta Haselgrove spinster of 26 Paris St. Father: Ambrose Haselgrove, hotelkeeper.
Witnesses: Edward Lawson; Cecilia Lawson.
*His musical occupation is interesting, as I see from later records that his grandson James Charles White became an orchestral violinist.
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Just a thought but...
Could Cecilia & Maude (sisters) be the same person, maybe didn't like her name?
Annie
No, they were born and separately registered 14 years apart and appear in different places in 1891 (Cecilia “Celia” still with parents in Richmond).
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Thanks avm,
Hard trying to grasp so much info. in one quick reading with similar names & late at night! ;D
Annie
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Many thanks to all contributors to this post - what a fantastic response!
I had wondered about the Charlie Rowland link, and there is a Maude C Rowland as noted, who looks like she was quite a bit older than the rest of the family ("well on the way" as @avm228 notes). George C Rowland, if that was her father, seems to have had some interesting career changes after being a vocalist (working for the London Gazette, then latterly as a secretary to Richmond Hospital).
As to Cecilia (my grandmother) I have no absolute record of her middle name, just the initial on various censuses and work references. In the absence of a Rowland/White definitive marriage (possibly not in country), I might have to try looking for a link via James Charles (who was a talented musician, remembered by my mother as playing violin and the organ - also came out to Africa to visit his sister, but sadly took ill and died in Bulawayo).
I will look through the various suggestions and keep on plugging away. Thanks again.
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When did Cecilia emigrate to Rhodesia, and what was her surname at the time (was she already married)?
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Thanks avm,
Hard trying to grasp so much info. in one quick reading with similar names & late at night! ;D
Annie
Yes, these puzzles keep us up much too late, don’t they :D
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I see that James Charles White married twice:
Mar qtr 1911 Brighton, to Lilian Vivian Patricia Gale (she died Brighton Sep qtr 1913 aged 21)
Sep qtr 1918 Tonbridge to Rose E Fenner (she was Rose Ethel, according to his 1944 probate record)
There’s a likely son born to the first marriage: James George White, mmn Gale, Sep qtr 1911 Brighton, followed by four White/Fenner children in Brighton 1919 -1932.
Paternal details should (one hopes) be included on James Charles’ marriage certificates, though sometimes the space is simply crossed through where there has been early bereavement or estrangement.
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Maude's son and daughter appear to have been born illegitimately:
James Charles Rowland - Sept.qtr.1883 Lambeth
Cecilia Victoria Rowland - June quarter 1887 Fulham
(both births show no mmn on new GRO index which indicates illegitimacy).
Annette
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In 1881 it looks as if as 'Maud' bc.1860 Richmond (where she'd lived from age 5) is a visitor in Cambridge - occupation 'pianist'.
Annette
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Probate index entry
Maude Cecilia White of 15 St Lukes Rd Brighton widow died 24 Jan 1927 Administration to James Charles White Musician.
Shame it is Admin, not Probate, as that means no Will to look at.
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Once again, thanks for the the amazing support. The way time zones work, it all happens at night for me, and there is a raft of things for me to think about in the morning.
I am, as has been mentioned, beginning to suspect that things were a bit out of the ordinary in the White household. Spirited women - a tradition that continues to this day :-).
To illustrate, Cissie V (the daughter) left for South Africa initially, with only one month's worth of money. This would have been around 1914, as we have references from Cleghorn & Harris in June 1914. By 1915 she was writing to various employers in Southern Rhodesia, and obtained a position as personal secretary to A.R. Thompson at the Hwange Colliery. There she met my grandfather, who was working on the mine because his farm was too remote to be viable, and they married in 1917.
Cissie was very good at French, and there are, I found out this morning, some postcards in French to her mother from nuns in France, so the French connection seems like to might have some legs. However Maude consistently puts Lambeth as her birth place on the census records, so I am following up Maude Cecilia Rowland, and her mother, Jane Augusta nee Haselgrove, to see if there is something there (not so far, Jane b. in Cuckfield as far as I know).
I haven't had any joy with the marriages of James C (only just found that piece of news from my researches) but I have discovered a number of children, a couple of whom seem to have ended up in New Zealand (where I am).
Exciting stuff - and thanks again.