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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: RobbieJax on Wednesday 02 May 18 17:29 BST (UK)
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I have an ancestor, Mary Jones, born circa 1830. In censuses 1851 through 1881, she is living in Liverpool and her 'Where Born' is Scotland. Obviously, Jones was not such a common name in Scotland. Maybe it's just that the archiving of parish baptisms from around 1830 is not so good in Scotland but I can not find her birth there.
All of her time in Liverpool, she lived off Scotland Road in Scotland ward. Is it possible that on the censuses, Scotland really meant Scotland ward, Liverpool. In the 1861 census, 2 of her children are born in Liverpool and one is born in Scotland. In GRO, all 3 of her children were born in Liverpool. Strange that the census would list one child differently.
I know that there was a Liverpool Scotland constituency. Just wondering if the district was known as Scotland and that was what was intended in the censuses. Clutching at straws (obviously). Thanks
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The only ones I can see at first pass are married women. Or is Jones her maiden name?
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Sorry, yes, Jones is her maiden name. Her married name is Metcalfe (often spelt wrong in the censuses). For example in the 1861 census, Mary Melcalfe and son Thomas show as born in Scotland
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"Scotland" is still understood in Liverpool to mean the area around Scotland Road - or "Scotty Road".
I have seen it used in censuses to mean this, in the same way that a Londoner might write "Paddington" without any reference to a county.
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I don't buy this at all. If the census recorded the birthplace as Scotland, Lancashire then I might be persuaded (though I've never seen it) but if it's just "Scotland" then that means Scotland the country.
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I don't buy this at all. If the census recorded the birthplace as Scotland, Lancashire then I might be persuaded (though I've never seen it) but if it's just "Scotland" then that means Scotland the country.
I agree, and all the censuses say Scotland, apart from 1861 which has her born Liverpool, it's odd though that Thomas' birth was registered in Liverpool but the 1861 census gives birth place Scotland, I wonder if the enumerator confused the two and transposed birth places for Mother and son.
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Thanks, all, for your opinions. It is possible that the census-taker made a mistake as he also transposed Robert and Thomas. Robert was the 3yo and Thomas was 1yo.
Is it possible that she told the census-taker that she was born in Scotland and he just assumed the country and transcribed it as such. I have searched through a lot of pages of censuses looking for anything that was transcribed as Scotland, Lancashire and hadn't found any. I assume that they didn't transcribe it as such. I was thinking more a simple error of interpretation like I suggest.
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This is a strange one as normally the County (then area) a person was born would be recorded rather than an area on it's own.
Were the family literate as being asked where they were born they may have assumed the area (in Liverpool) named Scotland was what was being asked & depending on the Enumerators' knowledge may not have given it a 2nd thought if unaware of the area being called Scotland?
Was Scotland in Liverpool an actual area (at the time) or just an area locals referred to which later became officially know as Scotland?
Do you have a name & occ. for her father to look for her on the 1841 which would at least/hopefully give her mother's name to look for her baptism or their marriage?
Annie
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No, she was definitely not literate at the time. I have the birth certificate of her daughter in 1864 and she signed with her mark.
From the 1850 marriage certificate, the father was Thomas Jones, a farmer. They (assuming she was living with her family at the time) were living at 62, Victoria St, Everton. None of the family were living at that address a year later. I have searched for her in the 1841 census and in parish baptisms. Too many Mary Jones in Liverpool. No matches in Scotland
Liverpool Scotland was recognized as a constituency in 1885 but it was definitely a Municipal Ward in 1861. Not sure about 1851 census as FindMyPast is down right now so I can't check
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I see from Lancs BMD that the marriage was "Register Office or Registrar Attended" - was one of them a catholic?
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I don't believe so. I see in the Lancashire Records their first daughter Sarah Jane Metcalfe baptized in 1851 in Saint Peter's which was Anglican
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Marriage witnesses? Any clues there?
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Thanks, all, for your opinions. It is possible that the census-taker made a mistake as he also transposed Robert and Thomas. Robert was the 3yo and Thomas was 1yo.
Is it possible that she told the census-taker that she was born in Scotland and he just assumed the country and transcribed it as such.
They weren't asked the questions.If she was illiterate the schedule was filled in by someone else, collected by the enumerator, who then copied what was on the schedule into his enumerator's book. It is a common myth that a census enumerator knocked on doors and asked who was present, and then wrote down the details, often miss-hearing, or miss-spelling. When the enumerator collected the schedules all he had to do was to to examine the schedule in order to satisfy himself that it had been correctly and completely filled up.
Stan
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Thanks. It was my assumption that the enumerator went knocking on doors. But it doesn't detract from the fact that if they were illiterate, the 'someone else' had to interpret what they said and write it down.
Witnesses were Jean Clark and Mary Fittom (or Fitton). I did try tracing them and didn't get anywhere. I can upload a pdf of the marriage certificate for you to see if it is OK to do that
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Mary Fitton was from Scotland too. Previously Mary Clark, she married John Fitton in 1847. Another "Register Office or Registrar Attended" marriage.
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Thanks. Let me take a look at that and see if it leads me anywhere. Appreciate your help
btw, dumb question but why does a "Register Office or Registrar Attended" imply Catholic
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Unless it took place in a Church of England church, a Catholic or non-conformist marriage was only legal if a registrar of marriages was present.
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They weren't asked the questions.If she was illiterate the schedule was filled in by someone else, collected by the enumerator, who then copied what was on the schedule into his enumerator's book. It is a common myth that a census enumerator knocked on doors and asked who was present, and then wrote down the details, often miss-hearing, or miss-spelling. When the enumerator collected the schedules all he had to do was to to examine the schedule in order to satisfy himself that it had been correctly and completely filled up.
Nearly always, perhaps. But, to be fair, it may not have been 100% like that - the instructions to enumerators for 1851 states
"If, on inquiry for the Schedule, it is delivered to him not filled up, he must fill it up himself, asking all necessary questions."
It was my assumption that the enumerator went knocking on doors. But it doesn't detract from the fact that if they were illiterate, the 'someone else' had to interpret what they said and write it down.
They must have knocked at the door to ask for the schedule!
See also the fascinating article re the finding of a box of surviving Shropshire 1841 census schedules
http://www.balh.org.uk/uploads/tlh-downloads/the-local-historian-43-02-may-2013.pdf
(page 96) Did householders complete their own HSs?
Interestingly, of the quarter or so of schedules that were not completed by the head of household, the author estimates that most were filled in by the enumerator.
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In 1871 enumerators were asked to record the number of schedules that they filled in themselves on the page in their enumeration books given over to summery tables. In parts of Manchester the proportion so completed was 25%; in Christ Church, Spitalfields the proportion was 15%, in Colyton Devon it was 7%; but in some Welsh speaking parishes in Anglesey the majority were filled in by the enumerators. Even within the same sub-district the proportion of the returns completed by the enumerators could vary widely... It is not possible to gauge the number of schedules that had to be filled out for householders by neighbours. "Making Sense of the Census" by Edward Higgs.
Stan
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Nearly always, perhaps. But, to be fair, it may not have been 100% like that - the instructions to enumerators for 1851 states
"If, on inquiry for the Schedule, it is delivered to him not filled up, he must fill it up himself, asking all necessary questions."
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The Lancashire Online Parish Clerks site a has a marriage which may be of interest to you:
7 Mar 1846 St Paul, Liverpool,
Hugh Williams - Full, Joiner, Bachelor, Virginia Street
Hannah Thomas - Full, Spinster, Virginia Street
Groom's Father: Owen Williams, Gardener
Bride's Father: Thomas Jones, Farmer
Witness: Mary Jones, (X); John Jones
Married by Licence by: Robt. Davies Minister
Notes: [Bride signed Hannah Thomas Jones]
www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkindx.cgi?parish=Liverpool&type=City&community=Liverpool+Central
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Thank you all for your input. The more I think about it, I have to agree that it has to be Scotland the country and not the ward. I could see one or two census transcribed in error but there were 4 in a row that all said Scotland.
Also, in following Shaun's lead on the witnesses, I noticed that for the one witness Jean Clark, back then, Jean was almost exclusively a Scottish first name. There was one lead in Scotland that I was following that looked promising but bevo's post just threw a spanner in the works on that one because that definitely does look like that could be my family in 1846