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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: designhall1 on Wednesday 02 May 18 14:41 BST (UK)
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Jonathan or John Jones spouse Mary J Griffiths (Have seen this spelt Griffithe) Daughter Iris. No other siblings. John had 2 sisters Gladys or Gwladys and Sarah. Try to find Johns parents too. All lived in Merthyr Tydfill.
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Do you have years and places of birth for them :-\
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Just had a little breakthrough - found census 1911. Jonathan carpenter was 22. Found father John Evan Jones b.1844, coal miner and mother Ann b.1846. There were 8 children. Need to find 5 more as I have Gladys and Sarah. John Evan Jones parents are next to find.
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Struggling with John Evan Jones and Ann's parents but have all the info on the children now. If anyone can try and find out anything about Jonathan's wife Mary J Griffiths mother of Iris my grandmother, that would be great. Sounds easy only my great grandma, but it is not.
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Struggling with John Evan Jones and Ann's parents
What information does the marriage certificate give about their fathers.
If anyone can try and find out anything about Jonathan's wife Mary J Griffiths mother of Iris my grandmother, that would be great.
What does their marriage certificate say about their fathers
To enable anyone to help with surnames like Jones in Wales they will need more information as to places and dates of both births & marriages.
Hopefully with this extra information someone will be able to help.
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Do you have the marriage certificate for Jonathan & Mary J Griffiths to confirm names & occupations of fathers? Without that info, it's just guessing. When & where was Mary J born?
Working back through the census years for the family of John Evan Jones and Ann gives 8 children -Thomas, Robert, Mary, Evan, Margaret Ann, Catherine, Hannah & Jonathan - no Gladys or Sarah. Checking the birth registrations shows mother's maiden of Davies
Jonathan Jones dec qtr 1888 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 506 mmn Davies. Several possible marriages with John Jones & Ann Davies on the same page before the birth of first child Thomas about 1869.
Several John Jones of around the right age born Llanfynydd which is given as his place of birth on one census. There's this possible in Merthyr Tydfil in 1851
Castle St, HO107/2458 folio 295 pg 4
Mary Jones head widow 46 householder b. Carms, Llanarthe
Thomas son 17 coal haulier b. Carms, Llanfynydd
David son 15 general labourer b. Llanfynydd
John son 7 at home b. Llanfynydd
red post, will continue...
;D
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8 children is correct - see 1911 Wales census. Show Jonathan's and parents ages and occupation. He was the youngest so all the siblings had left home. My Aunt has not got Gladys or Sarah right. I have found a Gladys elsewhere which might explain this. She is a daughter of Mary Jones, Jonathans older sister. Gladys would have been Jonathan's cousin and 3 years older. Sally could have quite easily been a nickname or someone else so not worrying about this. No birth or death date found for Mary J Griffiths. Frustrating.
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The 1911 census then confirms Jonathan's birthdate of 1889 as he was 22 (carpenter). So anything on his father (coal miner) or Mary would be super.
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You need to buy a copy of the marriage cert for Jonathan & Mary J
Jonathan Jones to Mary J Griffiths march qtr 1918 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 1056
buy from here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
There is no point in guessing which of the Mary J Griffiths on the census might be the right one. We need clues - age, father's name & occupation should help.
I've already given you a possible for John from the 1851 census. I've found what seems to be the same family in Llanfynydd, Carms in 1841, father being Evan.
Baptisms for the children all in Llanfynydd
Thomas 6 April 1834 son of Evan & Mary Cwmcelly fawr
David 10 Nov 1836 son of Evan & Mary Cwmcelly fawr
John 2 June 1844 son of Evan & Mary Pencaemawr
Possible burial for Evan age 40 30 March 1847 of Abersannan Mill
But you need certificates to confirm names.
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Ok thanks for that link. By the way his father is John Evan Jones not Evan Jones.
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I have ordered a copy of the marriage certificate. Lets see what unfolds.
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yes, I know the father appears on one census as John Evan Jones. However, it's possible that John Evan's father was called Evan if I have the right family.
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Could quite well be. might put that in and see if anything comes up. Jonathan and Mary's marriage certificate should arrive Thursday next week. I hope it has their parents on there or I have wasted 39 pounds. I found a great photo of Jonathan and Mary with my gran Iris where I keep the family photos.
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I hope it has their parents on there or I have wasted 39 pounds.
It will have fathers names (if known) but not mothers (unless they were witnesses).
How did you spend £39 on the certificate? They cost £9.25 from the GRO as suggested by osprey in reply 8.
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It was 34 pounds. I live in Australia so DHL courier took up a fair chunk.
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It was 34 pounds. I live in Australia so DHL courier took up a fair chunk.
Airmail postage is included in the £9.25 standard service, though obviously takes longer to arrive.
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I think I may have found something. 1911 Wales census. Jonathan and Sarah Ellen Jones with a Jonathan, Gladys and Sarah (Sally) which my aunt told me to look out for. Wrexham residence so she might have got this wrong. Will send her a screenshot to see if this rings better bells.
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I think I may have found something. 1911 Wales census. Jonathan and Sarah Ellen Jones with a Jonathan, Gladys and Sarah (Sally) which my aunt told me to look out for. Wrexham residence so she might have got this wrong. Will send her a screenshot to see if this rings better bells.
Is this the one you have found
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VZ-1X6
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Yes exactly. I think we might have got it this time. Doesn't help with Jonathan's wife Mary and her family details.
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Added these details and another son popped up, David 1897 and a marriage date of 1888. Starting to make sense now. Will see where it takes me.
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Just adding link to other post for additional background www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=792471.54
Monica
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Made some good progress today on the Jones' Have got to Thomas Jones 1801-1875. Cant find his parents but he married Sarah Frost 1803-1877
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Ok marriage certificate has arrived. Married 10 Jan 1918. Jonathan's father was John Evan Jones. Says John Evan deceased so he would have died between 1911 and 1918. No mother on the form however the 1911 census has Ann on there that matches up. Where was that "joiner" fact you mentioned as occupation for Jonathan? Can you send me the link. Jonathan's wife was Mary Jane Griffiths. Father William Henry. No mother on form but witness was a C Griffiths so this might be her. Scraps to go on but it might be enough to get somewhere. :)
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Iv'e got the "Joiner" fact, sorry. Was on that 1939 register.....
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Please could you give other useful info from the marriage certificate. Ages of bride and groom and their addresses. Names of the witnesses. No reason to think that the mother would be a witness, more likely a sibling.
Possible for Mary Jane from 1901
26 Church St, Penydarren RG13/5030 folio 84 pg 21
William H Griffiths head mar 37 coal miner hewer
Elizabeth wife 34
Wyndham son 7
Mary J dau 5
Annie dau 3
all born Merthyr Tydfil, all speak both Welsh & English.
Same family in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXW-LRM
so the C Griffiths could be older sister Ceridwen
1901 she was helpfully with her grandparents
1901 10 Plantation St RG13/5030 folio 141 pg 7
Thomas Davies head mar 57 coal miner b. Pembroke, S????
Mary wife 57 b. Glam, Morristown
Sarah dau 19 dressmaker b. Penydarren
Ceridwen Griffiths grand daughter 9 b. Penydarren
In other years, place of birth for Thomas shows as Blackmoor Hill or Narberth.
Likely birth reg for Mary Jane Griffiths sep qtr 1895 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 719 mother's maiden name Davies
marriage reg William Henry Griffiths march qtr 1890 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 708 with Elizabeth Davies on the same page
William Henry's family in 1871
77 Church St RG10/5400 folio 75 pg 21
Wyndham Griffiths head mar 39 ironstone miner b. Glam, Aberavon
Ann wife 33 b. Carms, Llandovery
Mary A dau 12
William H son 7
James son 3
Edmund son 1
children all born Merthyr Tydfil
birth reg William Henry Griffiths june qtr 1863 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 380 mmn Dawkins
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if that proves to be the correct William Henry, report of his father's death here "Fatal Accident"
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4344437/4344443/51/
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Iv'e got the "Joiner" fact, sorry. Was on that 1939 register.....
Yes it was. From the other post you have:
That is great. Ancestry has just added today the 1939 Register to their databases. Previously it was only available via subs on Findmypast.
See https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61596
Maurice shows as Maurice H Herbert in 1939, living in Cambridge. The entry following this I think might be Iris but it is blanked out. Have a read through the details of the register to understand better why some entries show as redacted (including the 100yr rule if it not confirmed that the person has died).
What made me happy was that I think we do have the correct Jonathan and Mary Jane as her parents. You will confirm at least father's name from the marriage cert you are waiting for. I can see a Jonathan and Mary J Jones in Willesden. This is where Iris married Maurice in 1939. Jonathan's occupation is that of a Joiner and his birth date is in 1888 which is what we saw in the censuses we have so far for him with his family. Let's also see if we have an address match from the marriage cert and the 1939 register.
Monica
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death reg for Mary J Jones sept qtr 1947 aged 52 Willesden vol 5f pg 371
Entry in probate calendar for Mary Jane Jones of 68 Sanderhurst Road, Kingston on Thames, wife of Jonathan Jones, died 17 Sept 1947, administration to said Jonathan Jones, carpenter.
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Thanks so much Osprey and Monica.
I will try your suggestions Osprey as I was stuck here. In regards to the Jones' I think I have got the right path now and it is all opening up beautifully with Jonathan's parents being John Evan Jones and Ann Davies.
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Died in accident at aged 15? William Henry's father. Sorry not following this.
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Age of death was 45, just found mining report. So typo in the news paper lol
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it's not a typo, newspapers online like that rely on OCR which isn't perfect and can make mistakes like reading 45 as 15.
You haven't answered my questions. Age & addresses of Jonathan & Mary Jane on their marriage? Names of witnesses? I'd like to be sure I wasn't wasting my time with the Griffiths family I found.
Who is Thomas Jones 1801-75? I'm not seeing a John Jones born Llanfynydd 1844ish with father Thomas, although there is one with an elder brother Thomas.
???
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Ages are 29 and 22 on the marriage cert. Addresses are both Merthyr Tydfil. Witnesses are her father W H Griffiths and C Griffiths. Everything now fits and I am ok. Your help with Mary's Mum and siblings was great thank you.
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Only thing I can't find is when Jonathan died. I have managed to go way back now with the Jones so really appreciative.
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Spotted the probate for Jonathan.
Jonathan of Ty Mawr Guest House, Pen Wyllt, Swansea Valley died 8 July 1954 at Gelli Aur, Rhyl Road, Denbigh. Administration to Iris Herbert, wife of Maurice Henry Herbert effect £1710 10s.
Death reg
Jonathan Jones 66 sept qtr 1954 Ruthin vol 8a pg 347
Wouldn't have thought of that one as nowhere near he was last seen!
Several possible death regs for John Jones in Merthyr Tydfil.
Possible 1851 census
Castle Street, Merthyr Tydfil HO107/2458 folio 295 pg 4
Mary Jones head widow 46 householder b. Carms, Llanarthney
Thomas son 17 coal haulier
David son 15
John son 7
sons all born Llanfynydd
1841 Cwmcelly Fawr, Llanfynydd
Evan Jones 35 farmer
Mary 35
Anne 8
Thomas 6
David 4
all born in county
Evan buried aged 40 in Llanfynydd 30 March 1847 of Abersannan Mill
John Jones baptised 2 June 1844 in Llanfynydd son of Evan & Mary of Pencaemawr
Evan Jones of Llanfynydd married Mary Francis in Llangathen 13 July 1822, witnesses Thomas Evans & Thomas Francis of Velindre Mill.
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Thanks osprey. Top one would be right with Iris and Maurice. Brilliant. Not sure what the other info is as neither Jonathan or his father John Evan Jones had a son called David. I am all good now. You have been most helpful. It can get very tricky. Could I ask you one favour seeing as though you are really good at this. This was my Mum's side but I am well and truly bamboozled with my Dad's side the Hall's. I have been searching for weeks looking for details of the parents of Richard Hall 1797-1845. I have the christening listed as a John and Mary but thats it which leaves me stumped. Details below. Richard married Harriet Selina de Bouffler. I have all their details. Cheers.
Name Richard Hall
Gender Male
Birth Date 01 Jun 1797
Baptism Date 04 Jun 1797
Baptism Place Saint Luke Old Street,Finsbury,London,England
Father John Hall
Mother Mary
FHL Film Number 585440
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the other info is the family of John Jones, father of Jonathan. That John gives his place of birth as Carmarthenshire and in one census specifically Llanfynydd. I've given you the 1851 census when they've moved to Merthyr Tydfil after the death of Evan, father of John. And the 1841 showing the family with Evan before the birth of John and the baptism of John in Llanfynydd.
Same family in 1861 - John before his marriage to Ann Davies
7 Castle Street, Merthyr Tydfil RG9/4052 folio 77 pg 36
Mary Jones head widow 56
Thomas son 26 haulier
David son 23 collier
John son 17 haulier
all born Carmarthenshire
You'll need the marriage certificate for John Jones & Ann Davies to be sure of both fathers' names & occupations.
Possible marriage regs for John Jones & Ann Davies
dec qtr 1868 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 538
june qtr 1867 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 559
Just because the eldest son is named Thomas it doesn't mean John's father was called Thomas. You mentioned a Thomas Jones 1801-1875 and I can see no evidence from census entries of a likely candidate.
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Father of John Evan was Evan, correct. Evan was married to Mary, her maiden name was Edwards. Thanks for the other children's names of Evan as I did not have these. Evan's father was William who married another Ann. Don't have her maiden name but thats ok. Williams father was an Evan too who married Anne. I am all good from now on.
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This is the one I am desperate for help with - parents. Anything.
Name Richard Hall
Gender Male
Birth Date 01 Jun 1797
Baptism Date 04 Jun 1797
Baptism Place Saint Luke Old Street,Finsbury,London,England
Father John Hall
Mother Mary
FHL Film Number 585440
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Mary's maiden name was NOT Edwards. It was Francis. There are 2 possible registrations for John in Llandilofawr march qtr 1844 vol 554 or 589 both showing with mmn Francis. There isn't one with mmn Edwards. The marriage 13 July 1832 in Llangathen is to Mary Francis. It's on FreeReg and the register entry can be accessed via FindMyPast.
If I can find anything for your other query, I'll put it on your other post so it is all on one place, but most of my family research has been done in South Wales & Cornwall so can't promise to find anything useful.
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Mary was married to an Evan John not Jones 1788. Their son was a John Evan 1844 who was married to an Ann Davies parents of Jonathan.
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sorry without knowing what your sources are for this, I don't know where your info is coming from. Do you have census records or parish entries to back this up? Is your info coming from other people's trees which may or may not be accurate?
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Details provided by direct family so this is accurate. Father of John Evan Jones 1844 was Evan H Jones 1788. I am pretty good with the Jones' tree now.
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if by direct family you mean other people's trees, I would suggest doing your own research to be sure. Many online trees are just copied because the names or places seem to match. There is an online tree for a John Evan Jones born around the same time as yours but he was born in Llanbadarn Fawr, Cardiganshire not in Llanfynydd, Carmarthenshire as yours was.
I've seen trees for my direct line that have census entries in 1851 & 1861 for one of my ancestors. He died in 1835 and his widow remarried in 1837 and he definitely wasn't around to be on those census entries.
::)
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Sure, noted.