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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jowen1986 on Saturday 28 April 18 07:25 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am new to this group/forum and I was sent here by a fellow on Geni.com. I would like to ask for any insight that could help me, to include if anyone knows of my family or has them on their tree.
The information I do have is as,
I need help finding the ancestors for my great great grandfather George, born in 1847, married to a Hannah Smith, originally born Brooks. George's, father Henry was born in 1813 and married to Sarah born in 1821, his father John born unknown, married Mary. Most of what we have is my great great grandfather George being in Lancashire. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also if you have a shared tree or family that would be amazing. Thank You for your time. Some records indicate Bickerstaffe.
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Hi and welcome to the forum.
What is George's last name?
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Forgot to post that, sorry. Our family surname is Owen.
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Hello,
So is this your family?
1851 2188/305/28
Henry Owen 38 yrs dock labourer b Bickerstaffe
Sarah Owen 30 yrs b Liverpool
Mary A Owen 10 yrs
John Owen 7yrs
George Owen 4 yrs
Children born Toxteth Park
Heywood
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This site https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
shows John and George Owen with mother’s maiden name of Norcott. Is that right?
It is best if you post names known etc as you seem to know Henry’s parents.
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Yes, that would be my family for sure. All the information I have is John and Mary Owen, had a son named Henry born 1813, who married Sarah, born 1821. Together they had two daughters and two sons. Mary Ann b.1843, Mary b.1848, John b.1844, and George b.1847. George Married Hannah b.1846 and they had John b.1869 and Isabella. John married Emma Rose (born Bourdy) and had Charles, Viola, and Walter-My grandfather.
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Unfortunately, I am unsure past my grandfather Henry. As well I do not know if Norcott is the maiden name of anyone in my family.
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That George was born 1846
West Derby June quarter vol 20 pg 1118
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1846/1847, for some reason Lancashire had it at 1847
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1846/1847, for some reason Lancashire had it at 1847
Is that the same George?
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Yes, He immigrated to America in 1870 I believe.
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Yes, that would be my family for sure. All the information I have is John and Mary Owen, had a son named Henry born 1813, who married Sarah, born 1821. Together they had two daughters and two sons. Mary Ann b.1843, Mary b.1848, John b.1844, and George b.1847.
1851 only shows Mary Ann born abt 1841, John and George.
GRO shows
John b 1843 mmn Norcott
George b 1846 mmn Norcott
There is a Mary Norcott born 1841
I can’t see Mary b 1848 :-\
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Yes, He immigrated to America in 1870 I believe.
I mean the births. If you have George born 1847 he is likely to not be the one in the census with parents Henry and Sarah.
Please would you give the birth reference you have found.
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UK census records from 1861 show John as age 17 and George as 14.
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You can’t really go off census details. You need the birth records and you have him 1847 from Lancashire?
Marriage
January 24th 1842
Walton on the Hill
Henry Owen, Labourer of Parliament Street Father John, a Farmer
Sarah Norcott of Parliament Street Father John, a labourer
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GEORGE Owen age 21, Father HENRY, married Hannah SMITH age 19, Widow, Father James BROOKS,
21 Dec 1865, Liverpool.
So birth year c 1844
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1851 2188/305/28
Henry Owen 38 yrs dock labourer b Bickerstaffe
Sarah Owen 30 yrs b Liverpool
Mary A Owen 10 yrs
John Owen 7yrs
George Owen 4 yrs
Children born Toxteth Park
In 1871 they have children
John 26
Sarah 14
Henry 9
all born Liverpool
RG10/3760 f141 p29
Birth registration for Henry jnr
OWEN, HENRY mmn NORCOLL (?)
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 35
The 1861 shows mother as Susan not Sarah but Sarah in 1871
1861 - RG9/ 2657 f108 p30
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Perfect, I will change his birth year.
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I know in 1871, they had already been in America for a year.
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The 1870 US Census show them here in America. George his Wife and children all came, everyone else stayed in the UK, from what ive been told. I dont know how true that is.
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Perfect, I will change his birth year.
Please change it if it is your family but you need to add the registration details if nothing else.
You have not said where you have the birth of Mary b 1848
Where do you have the details of Henry’s parents from, especially mother as Mary?
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All of that info was added by another user. I am not sure where that would have came from.
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Baptism: 13 Jun 1813 St Chad, Kirkby, Lancashire, England
Henry Owen - Son of John Owen & Mary
Born: 19 May 1813
Abode: Bickerstaffe
Occupation: Husbandman (Farmer)
Baptism: 25 Jun 1820 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sarah Norcott - [Child] of John Norcott & Sarah
Abode: Crosbie Street
Occupation: Labourer
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Hi Trish,
I just entered his birth date in and edited Sarah's Maiden and Married Surname in. Thank you for that.
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Whats really getting to me is trying to find out more about John and Mary and his parent, going back. I would really like to try and find more family back to the 1600's.
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You are very optimistic trying to get back to the 1600's with the Owen line.
I have been doing this for years and was happy to get back to mid 1750's with my Family lines. This has been properly researched with B/M/D Certs purcased, Parish Records, Wills etc.
With such a common name Owen it will be very hard and I havent found anything for John/Mary Owen yet other than Henrys Baptism.
Sarah line is a lot easier;
1841 Census in Liverpool we have;
Sarah NORCOTT, 45, Widow
Martha, 15, Spinster
SARAH, 20, Spinster***
John, 15, Son
Mary, 8, Daug
William, 5, Son
So John is either not at Home or has died between 1835-1841
Possible Marriage;
Sarah EATON/John NORCOTT
Marriage Date: 14 Apr 1816
Marriage Place: Liverpool, Lancashire
Not LancsOPC has her as CATON
Trish :)
So John is either not at Home or has died between 1835-1841
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Thank you trish. Even to get back to the early 1700's would be great. I just want to know as much about my family as I can gather.
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There's a John Owen buried at St Chad's Kirkby on 20 June 1837 abode given as Bickerstaffe in parish of Ormskirk aged 67 years.
www.lan-opc.org.uk has other bmds that might be of interest to you
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Also At St Chad Kirkby
Mary Owen widow 7 November 1839 aged 67 years from Liverpool Town Parish
Possibly John's widow?
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Could be, I wish I knew for sure. That is definitely something to think about.
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How would I confirm something like that
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Thank you so much everyone for the help so far. Would anyone know how I could find more about john and mary.
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Here is some initial digging I did for John (although it looks like things have pushed on further than that):
https://www.geni.com/discussions/180553?msg=1212448
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Thank you so much everyone for the help so far. Would anyone know how I could find more about john and mary.
I've had to do this with my wife's English side - you need to be methodical once you get beyond the censuses and the birth/marriage/death certificates (if you haven't grabbed everyone you can do so first as they might have some gem of information not otherwise available). Build up a picture of the wider family, find out where all the bodies are buried, make sure you keep an eye out for families moving around the villages in the area.
I was lucky to find a group based in the main local parish who had transcribed the gravestones, etc. and they can be a great help (I've had to throw out a stack of research into my own family thanks to what I found on one gravestone). As I assume popping over to Bickerstaffe or Kirby isn't on the cards any time soon, you could put in requests on Find A Grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2270674/st-chad-churchyard
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2616665/holy-trinity-church
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Apparently Rosalind Lloyd has made a detailed survey of St Chad's graveyard:
https://www.cofekirkby.co.uk/st-chads-information/churchyardpage/
However, the link doesn't work.
I found this from her:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/14483/mb.ashx
However, that link is dead too.
I managed to get a cached version which has the following:
Owen, Alice, A360, A603
Owen, Betty, A753
Owen, Catharine, A338
Owen, Charles, A365
Owen, Clara, A29
Owen, Clarissa, A61, A890
Owen, Clarissa Barton, C34t
Owen, Elizabeth, A296
Owen, Ellen, A29, A62, A268, A293, A801
Owen, Ellen (née Shacklady), A822
Owen, Frances, A494
Owen, George, A194, A753
Owen, Henry, A296, A613
Owen, Isaac, A61, A493?, A890
Owen, James, A268, A526, A801
Owen, Jane A48, A330, A890
Owen, John, A29, A338, A398, A474, A494, A753
Owen, Joseph, A293
Owen, Lydia, A194, A613
Owen, Margaret, A338, A526, A753
Owen, Mary, A61, A398
Owen, Mary Alice, C34t
Owen, Nancy, A29
Owen, Nanny (Anne), A613
Owen, Peter G, Memorial
Owen, Richard, A891, C34t
Owen, Robert, A29, A338, A452, C34t
Owen, Samuel, A801
Owen, Thomas, A48, A62, A360, A603, A890
Owen, Thomas Beesley, A603
Owen, William, A194, A330, A425, A454
Owen, Winifred, A971
https://web.archive.org/web/20040402164716/http://mysite.freeserve.com/stchadskirkby
As you can see some families are buried in the same grave and that might help you figure out their relation to each other (or eliminate them from your enquiries) and other families, like:
Pickavance, Ellen, A338
...
Prescot(t), Jane, A61, A158, A849
At least knowing the plot number might help you direct your Find a Grave request to the right place. Like A398?
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Also At St Chad Kirkby
Mary Owen widow 7 November 1839 aged 67 years from Liverpool Town Parish
Possibly John's widow?
This is the index for her death certificate from the GRO - you can now order a PDF of it:
OWEN, MARY 67
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 327
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Thank you Billy. I will try to obtain records when I can and see what I come up with. I will also work towards the dna side of it.
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Thank you Billy. I will try to obtain records when I can and see what I come up with. I will also work towards the dna side of it.
I am an advocate of DNA testing for genealogical purposes, although you might not get any easy answers and you do need a solid family tree to get the best out of it. However, Owen is a popular surname so being able to find your branch and their deeper origins may help you figure out where your male line came from, especially as you may find your investigations running into a brick wall when the family moved from Wales. There is an Owen group at FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Owen/default.aspx?section=yresults
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I am part of the group on ftdna, but nothing comes back so far. The only thing I have to go on is I have a aunt who married a male heir of a female from the Lancasters, rumors of Owain Glyndwr and William the conqueor, possibly the tudors. Who knows. I need the ydna testing to be done, thats for sure.
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I am part of the group on ftdna, but nothing comes back so far. The only thing I have to go on is I have a aunt who married a male heir of a female from the Lancasters, rumors of Owain Glyndwr and William the conqueor, possibly the tudors. Who knows. I need the ydna testing to be done, thats for sure.
Definitely. You can start at Y-37 and see how things go, for some people I've worked with in our haplogroup (and in the project for my mother's maiden name which I help admin) that is enough to get them solid results for others (including me) it isn't helpful so you need to dig deeper.
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Thanks Billy. I will do it as soon as I can to help narrow everything down.
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Thanks Billy. I will do it as soon as I can to help narrow everything down.
It'll take a bit and may need interpretation (and may not offer any definitive answers, mine hasn't just clues) - in the meantime you can push your family tree back further, if you can get paper links to distant cousins you also match genetically then that is a big bonus.
No guarantees though - on my wife's English side we can get one line back to the 1600s (a 7th or 8th cousin ended up a Mormon, so did a lot of the early work and we've nailed that down and expanded it with further research) and another back to the Normans (thanks to stumbling across a known and well-researched Anglo-Norman name) but confirming any matches on that side is proving difficult. The best matches are on our most poorly documented lines, which is in itself a bonus.
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I appreciate it. I got your request and approved them. How do I go about requesting the documents and etc.
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GEORGE Owen age 21, Father HENRY, married Hannah SMITH age 19, Widow, Father James BROOKS,
21 Dec 1865, Liverpool.
Looks like this is Hannah Brooks:
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
- Name: Hannah Brooks
- Gender: Female
- Christening Date: 30 Aug 1847
- Christening Date (Original): 30 AUG 1847
- Christening Place: SAINT PETER,LIVERPOOL,LANCASHIRE,ENGLAND
- Birth Date: 17 Aug 1847
- Father's Name: James Brooks
- Mother's Name: Isabella
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9MD-4WL
Registration:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26YQ-SHW
GRO gives mother's surname, an interesting Irish one:
BROOKS, HANNAH CONION
GRO Reference: 1847 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 20 Page 972
Then, as she is a Smith and a widow, this seems to be her wedding (at 16):
England Marriages, 1538–1973
- Name: James Henry Smith
- Spouse's Name: Hannah Brooks
- Event Date: 14 Sep 1863
- Event Place: St. Matthias', Liverpool, Lancashire, England
- Father's Name: George Smith
- Spouse's Father's Name: James Brooks
- Marital Status: Single
- Spouse's Marital Status: Single
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNM5-8Q7
James and Isabella's marriage intentions (they were both 21 at the time, so were born around 1825):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FBZQ-Z2R
Registration:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26WG-HKS
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Great to see the irish flair come out. Alot of celt blood in our names.
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Marriage record image for James Brooks and Isabella Conion, married on 9 Dec 1846, at St James CE church Toxteth, James was a mariner of Simpson Street, son of Charles Brooks, mariner. Isabella of Back Parliament Street was daughter of John Conion, Thread Maker:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89Q6-J7HY?cat=1485607
Blue
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Thank you for the info, just updated the tree.
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The Brooks in the 1861 census, oddly Isabella's birthplace is unknown (might be worth checking the original census sheets):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M75Z-8MV
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Hi Bill, the link keeps taking me to the sign in page. Thank you for the updated info though.
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You need to register and sign in to Family Search to use it now. It's free and they now have a lot of record images that otherwise would require a paid subscription to access on sites like Ancestry.
Blue
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Thank you Blue. Will do.
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Hi Bill, the link keeps taking me to the sign in page. Thank you for the updated info though.
Ah, sorry, I assumed you were the John Owen building the tree on FamilySearch in parallel to the one on Geni:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LBZB-T9V
So, yes, well worth signing up as they have a lot of resources for free and you can also check out the family tree on there to see if there is anything to add or correct.
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Did Hannah marry for a third time? I'm getting a Hannah Sims dying in New York with the right parents and date of birth:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WVK-9N3
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Hi Billy,
That is my tree on family search, totally forgot. As far as Hannah, I dont know if she remarried or not.
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You can’t really go off census details. You need the birth records and you have him 1847 from Lancashire?
Marriage
January 24th 1842
Walton on the Hill
Henry Owen, Labourer of Parliament Street Father John, a Farmer
Sarah Norcott of Parliament Street Father John, a labourer
I went through the tree on FamilySearch and did a bit of tweaking and looked into the Norcott's - seems Sarah had a number of siblings, at least one of which (Mary) married and had a number of kids. Her mother is Sarah Eaton.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K4TW-4Q4
This is the most likely candidate for her baptism:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB27-8PN
Although her marriage records don't include parents, so...:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N659-GNL
Looks like ther husband may have died before the 1841 census, if so, she may have remarried:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKT6-M4R
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D4L-YDV
As you can see, things tend to get a little tricky once you get into the early 1800s but it is possible to push back further, you just need to pick apart the records and keep an eye out for wills and other documents that might help
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Thank you billy. I will update her info to add her mother.
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And when things are looking more solid make sure to update your ancestral surnames on FTDNA and add in your family tree as they are very useful for helping people figure out if they have any matches. If you haven't done so already you can also add your autosomal data to GEDmatch.
This is the extra bonus of pushing your family tree back a generation as you double the number of ancestral surnames as it feeds into your DNA tests (helping get more value out of them) which may then help with the family tree.
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Thanks Billy I will update it as soon as I can.