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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: designhall1 on Friday 27 April 18 14:58 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any info on Arthur Herbert and Daisy Bakewell. Their son Maurice Herbert 1915 - 1965 was my grandfather who lived in Middlesex. Thanks.
Daniel
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Is this Maurice's death from freebmd
Sep qtr 1965
MAURICE H HERBERT age 50
HILLINGDON reg district 5C 338
Where was he born :-\
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Correct He was born 27 march 1915 • Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa. He sailed to the UK 22 Jun 1936 • Southampton, England. I am looking for info on his parents and earlier. Thanks.
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According to Daisy's marriage certificate she was Daisy Cecilia Bakewell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XXDS-PN?i=1609&cc=2063749
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Correct. I am looking for Daisy and Arthurs birth and death dates plus info on Arthurs parents.
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There are these brief details here:
Daisy Cecilia Herbert (born Bakewell), 1889 - 1968
Daisy, Cecilia Herbert was born in 1889, to Charle Henry Bakewell and Eliza Bakewell.
Daisy had 7 siblings: Charles Henry Bakewell, Rosetta Harriet Andrew and 5 other siblings.
Daisy married Arthur Herbert on month day 1910, at age 21 at marriage place.
Daisy passed away in 1968, at age 79.
www.myheritage.com/names/cecilia_bakewell
Monica
PS Welcome to RootsChat, Daniel :)
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If we have the right parents for Daisy, her parents' marriage shows here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-FXJ (you now need to be signed on to FS to view items).
His death cert on 20 April 1938, names his children which include Daisy Cecilia now Herberth. He died at the age of 81 and had been a blacksmith by trade.
Edit: The death on 20 April was for Daisy's mother, given as Jane Crouch. Husband Henry Bakewell was the blacksmith by trade.
Monica
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Thanks Monica. Should have got on here earlier. Getting some great help.
Charle Henry Bakewell and Eliza Bakewell are Daisy's parents thank you.
Just need to find Arthur's parents now. Apparently the Herbert's are related to the earl of Pembrokeshire, hence the interest to trace back. Would also be good to get info on Maurice's (Arthurs son) wife's parents Iris Jones (Welsh) who was my dear gran.
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Henry Bakewell died on 3 December 1929, at the age of 86.
Struggling to find something so far on Arthur Bakewell.
Did Maurice marry in the UK or SA?
Monica
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Its Arthur Herbert my 2nd Grandfather. I need info on the Herbert line and the Jones' not so much the Bakewell's. Maurice married Iris Jul-Aug-Sep 1939 • Willesden, Middlesex
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Hi Daniel
With Granmother Iris Jones, why not start a new post focusing in on her, requesting help for her family and history. Have you ordered your grandparents' 1939 marriage to confirm details on her age and father's name etc.? Whatever you can add about what you know about her and her family will help those doing searches for you :)
With Arthur Herbert, still struggling on him. Do you have any family stories for him such as was he born in SA or did emigrate there before 1910 and his marriage to Daisy?
The only additonal items which I can see (but don't not help further with Arthur) are numerous shipping manifest entries into the UK.
For example, there is a shipping manifest entry for him and Daisy arriving in the UK on 6 November 1922. A futher entry in 1938 for Daisy and daughter(?) Maryanne aged 21 arriving in the UK. Daisy shows as wife, so Arthur still alive at this time.
Arthur also shows travelling by himself on a number of crossings. None show his place of birth. His birth year seems consistent around 1887-8.
Maybe trying to find shipping manifest into SA would show his a native of SA (if not, show his place of birth)?. Findmypast https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/passenger-lists-leaving-uk-1890-1960 have shipping manifests to SA which might help. You need a subscription or credits to view details on there.
Monica
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See that a family researcher shows Arthur's death as being in 1942 at Transvaal, South Africa.
Some details on what SA death certs may include here www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/South_Africa,_Natal_Province,_Civil_Deaths_(FamilySearch_Historical_Records) Search page there is www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2721608
Can't see a birth for Arthur circa 1887, but given his place of marriage in 1910, wondering/guessing if this 1881 death for a 5 month old baby could have been a brother of Arthur's. The father of this baby is showing as Arthur W Herbert, a printer www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-QSTN-B
Another baby's death, same father A W Herbert, in 1899 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG6P-M5C6
Monica
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Just adding this obit now to exclude this Arthur William Herbert as a possible father to Arthur www.gracesguide.co.uk/Arthur_William_Herbert
This Arthur showed as single on his death reg in 1915 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G56S-9G4L?i=1624&cc=1779109
The father on one of the baby's deaths we have above, also showed as a printer by trade.
Monica
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:o I think this might be a possible link to Arthur's parents with the possible death of father? An Arthur Whittle Herbert death, husband of Louisa Jane (married in England). The registration shows his children, including an Arthur www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS7P-2QZ5-D
Also included are his parents' names and details of English marriage.
Death reg for a possible brother, Albert, from 1930 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS7P-23V4-L
Something to work from hopefully...
Monica
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If we have correct details, mother Louise Jane's death here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS7P-23H7-J Includes her birth place of West Bromwich England and listing of children's names as is standard (and how useful that always is).
Father showing as Thomas Evan and mother, not sure of her name showing there :-\
Monica
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The joy of distinctive middle names that were consistently used ::)
Possibles to be confirmed for Arthur Snr. and family:
Birth 1854 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4G-19K
Census 1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7VG-SLM
Marriage 1872 to Louisa Jane Evans https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DL8-1SX
Christening 1877 of daughter Maud https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPVM-2VB
Census 1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-CCYZ*
* Arthur's 1881 occupation fits well with printer in early regs in SA.
The must have left for SA shortly after the census given the death of baby Walter on 19 November 1881. Maybe check on FindMyPast to see whether there are any shipping manifest for the family?
Monica
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Hi Monica, You have been a star!! Arthur Wittle Herbert may well be Arthurs father. Spicers printing rings a bell too. I will investigate. I am really stuck with my gran Iris Jones. She was an only child.
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Where did you see death of baby Walter on 19 November 1881?
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See this link from earlier www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-QSTN-B
Monica
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...Spicers printing rings a bell too. I will investigate....
The reason Spiers sounds familiar to you is that this the Company your grandfather worked for as a rep when he arrived in the UK in 1936. The address given then, 19 New Bridge Street London EC4, was also given by his father Arthur (that and 50 New Bridge Street) on his various manifest entries into the UK in the 1920-30s.
See here for company background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_William_Spiers Their business interests must have extended to SA.
Monica
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Daniel, as mentioned before, what do you have on grandmother Iris?
Have you got grandparents' marriage cert from 1939 to at least confirm her father's name?
Given the location of Maurice's death that Rosie mentioned earlier in Hillingdon, there is a death of an Iris Herbert, b. 1917, in the area of Barnet in 2001 (reg. January). Do you know when and where Iris died? Do you remember her birth day date? This death entry shows a birth of 18 June 1917.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Maurice and Iris marriage info is just a register I am afraid so date is correct but doesn't show parents names but Iris' father was 100% Johnathan Jones and wife Mary. This is all I have. Iris was born 1918 Merthyr Tydfil Wales and died 24 May Hampstead London. I am 100% sure on this as I was around. Just looking for that 1 clue for Johnathan and/or Mary to get me on my way.lol
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That may help! What year did Iris die?
Monica
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Whoop sorry, 1990.
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Did Iris remarry after Maurice's death? Cannot see an death entry for 1990 for an Iris Herbert.
Monica
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Yes she did. That was Walter m f Thurner in 1971 in Hampstead.
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Did Iris die in a hospital and death registered in that district?
There is this death reg showing:
Iris Thurner - age 72
Birth Date: 24 Apr 1918
Registration Date: May 1990
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 14
Page: 307
Monica
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Got the info on Walter Herbert thanks. Very sad.
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There is this possible marriage:
Jonathan Jones and Mary J Griffithe
1st Qrt 1918 - Merthyr Tydfil
Vol 11a and pg. 1056
And possible birth:
Iris Jones
2nd Qrt 1918 - Merthyr Tydfil
Mother's Maiden Name: Griffiths
Vol.11a and pg 1503
You need some actual certs to verify further, Daniel. Names are common and easy to make mistakes really.
The Merthyr Tydfil marriage is the only one with groom Jonathan, but there are other Jonathan Jones marrying elsewhere at that time.
Monica
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The marriage and possible birth above if correct would mean baby Iris born just after parents married.
There are a number of births for Jones/Griffiths in the area. Therefore cannot say whether there were no other births for this couple we are looking at (you mentioned that Iris was an only child?).
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I think Griffiths is correct. Rings a bell and timing is right. nice.
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Yes I am sure this is correct. Now with that clue what can we now find? Always the million $ question lol
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You need a couple of key certs from the GRO really to move on with Iris and her family. I would suggest at least the 1918 marriage and birth we have been discussing. Too many Jones and Griffiths to let you move back from here I would suggest.
I sometimes make lucky guesses, but not with Jones from Wales really...or Griffiths! I speak as someone who lost a life searching for MacDonalds in the Highlands ::) ;)
Monica
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Have you any clues as to what Jonathan Jones did for a living? You might be able to find something for him in the 1911 census perhaps?
Monica
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Ok I will ask my Mums sister to see if she can remember. Watch this space. Making good progress now on the Herbert's. Just found MY 4th great grandfather, Thomas and few new hints have come in.
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Going back to Herbert family for a mo, I noticed yesterday that there was a family tree on Ancestry. No document sources but they show the following siblings for Arthur, son of Arthur and Louisa Jane:
Marriage and some census details for Arthur we have already. Children (some we have details of already):
- Frederick Albert Herbert b. 10 Nov 1873.
- Eva Herbert b. 2 Jan 1875, Oswestry, Shropshire and died 30 Jun 1935, Ladysmith, KwaZulu-Natal (husband Horace Nuttall Shaw).
- Maud Herbert b. 8 May 1877 at 13 Wesley St, Oldbury and died 23 April 1884 in Pietermaritz.
- May Herbert b. 1 May 1879 at 13 Wesley St, Oldbury.
- Walter Herbert b. 2 June 1881 in West Bromwich - we have his death details in Nov 1881.
- Frank Herbert b. 27 Nov 1882 in Town Hill , Pietermaritzburg.
- Harold Herbert 3 Feb 1886 in Kingthorpe, Thornville, Natal.
- Arthur Herbert b. Nov 28 1889 in Zwartkop? Valley. We had possibly 1887/8?
- Vera Herbert b. 14 Jan 1890.
I think tree owner likely connected to the family/descendants of Eva.
Monica
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Yes I got all that. Making good progress now. :)
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Great :)
Just adding this possible late christening entry for Louisa Jane Evans (we have a West Bromwich birth place c. 1853 from the Herbert family's 1881 census entry) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NY2L-HB1
Monica
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Possible birth for Louisa:
Louisa Jane EVANS (mother's maiden name BARTON)
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 515
Could something have happened to parents Thomas and Jane?
Possible census entries for Louisa Jane:
1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7DM-1HH
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YQ-TYQ
You then pick up Louisa again from the 1872 marriage.
Monica
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How did Louisa J get the maiden name Evans? What was her mothers first name?
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So Frederick J's father is Thomas. He married a Martha but they got divorced in Florida USA. getting interesting
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How did Louisa J get the maiden name Evans? What was her mothers first name?
Have a look again at Louisa Jane's death reg www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS7P-23H7-J
Her father shows as Thomas Evans, deceased. Mother name not known (figured that out now) also deceased.
The possible name for her mother of Jane Barton comes from the late christening entry we have (see above link which shows Jane) and from the GRO birth above, shows Barton. Haven't found a marriage yet.
Monica
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I see. I now says the mother Hannah B Barton but weird thing on the census she was 67 when Lousia was 7 Hmm. I will investigate.
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Ok, a little more clarity for Louisa Jane's family...I think!
I think mother's maiden name as indexed is not correct. I think instead of Barton, it should be Bartram (likely with spelling variations along the way).
In the 1861 census link I posted with Louisa Jane showing as niece 1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7DM-1HH, there is a Hannah Barbraa, I think this should be Hannah Bartram.
There is this possible 1851 census for Hannah with son in law Thomas Evans and wife Jane https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGG8-TP7
Son Thomas age 1 there https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26GX-J6J
Monica
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Other names on the page, but possible marriage for a Jane Bartram and a Thomas Evans in 2nd Qrt 1847 Dudley Staffs - vol. 18 and pg. 478
There is this possible 1861 census entry also, in Oldsbury, West Bromwich (can't find the FS link for this so listed below):
Thomas Evans 37 coal miner b. Dunnington (transcript state 57 but original shows 37)
Jane Evans 33 b. West Bromwich
Thomas Evans 11 b. West Bromwich
Possible 1871 census entry for son Thomas https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDG-ZNK
Also, possible entry for Thomas and wife Jane https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDG-KRY
Monica
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I see. I now says the mother Hannah B Barton but weird thing on the census she was 67 when Lousia was 7 Hmm. I will investigate.
I think Hannah Bartram shows as mother to head of household, Charles Hodgetts. In error as it should be mother in law. A Louisa BARTERAM married a Charles Hodgetts in 3rd Qrt 1845 in Aston Warwickshire, vol. 16 and pg. 231.
Hannah Bartram would be Louisa Jane's maternal grandmother.
Monica
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Charles is then Jane Bartrams brother. This link is also correct because of the birthdate - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDG-KRY
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But would Jane then be a Hodgetts or is it Hadgett?
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Just to confirm lines, Louisa Bartram's details here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JM8X-G4C
Also, Jane Bartram's details here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGDG-KQ2 (earlier entry from 1820. This child must have died and name reused in 1828).
Possible entry for 1841 here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQT9-SG9
Monica
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Charles is then Jane Bartrams brother. This link is also correct because of the birthdate - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDG-KRY
No, Charles would be Jane's brother in law, married to her sister Louisa. Remeber Louisa Jane, daughter of Thomas Evans and Jane, shows as niece to Charles and Louisa in 1861 and 1871.
Monica
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But would Jane then be a Hodgetts or is it Hadgett?
As above, Jane is Bartram and all its variants until she married and became Evans. Seems that Thomas Evans and Jane Bartram only had two living children, Thomas b. 1850 and Louisa Jane b. 1853.There will be all sorts of reasons why Louisa Jane was raised by her Uncle Charles and Aunt Louisa Hodgetts. They do not appear to have had any children of their own do they.
Monica
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got it - phew
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It was all so complicated back then and most families had loads of children.
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Yes it sure was. Probably no different to today, just less children, but maybe more marriages ;)
Just found a family tree for Jane Bartram. This shows details on the marriage to Thomas Evans:
28 Jun. 1847 Parish Church of St. Martin, Tipton, Staffs, England.
Witnesses: John and Elizabeth Evans. Father of Bride shown to be Thomas Bartram, a Caster. Father of Groom shown to be James Evans, a labourer. Groom's occupation = Sinker.
They don't show Louisa Jane on it. Not surprisingly if she was raised by aunt and uncle and missed off someone's research.
They have Thomas Evans as having died in 1872 in Oldbury, Worcestershire. Jane Bartram/Evans then is showing as having remarried William Corker (who showed as a lodger with the couple in 1871).
Jane's mother Hannah is showing with the maiden name of MILLARD and looks to have died in 1866 in West Bromwich area.
Jane herself is showing as having died in 1878 in Oldbury, Worcestershire.
Monica
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I will leave you to follow up on Louisa Jane's brother Thomas b. 1850. The 1871 census entry we had listed above, where he is lodging with wife Martha (Taylor) seems to be correct. Their marriage details in 1869 show:
26 Sep. 1869 at the Parish Church of St. Thomas, Dudley, Worcs. England.
Witnesses: William and Eliza Perry. Father of Groom shown to be Thomas Evans, a Sinker. Father of bride shown to be Thomas Taylor, an Iron Puddler.
He died in 1929 in Dudley Staffs. He seemed to have worked and lived his life the Worcestershire and Staffordshire areas.
Monica
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Thanks so much Monica. You have done amazing. Could have got this far without you. I really want to find out more about Frederick J Herberts father Thomas, what the deal was with the American wife and before this. Remember I mentioned we have a link somewhere with the Earl of Pembrokeshire. They are Herbert's however I ams starting to think it might come from my gran Iris' side now see though their family was Welsh. I will try and get back to you with a occupation for her father. Very late here in Sydney and better get some sleep. Once again thank you so much. It is terrribly interesting all this.
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Just found Jane's birthdate and her father was also a Thomas born 1793
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Got Hannah's birth too - We are rocking
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and Marriage to William Corker - same year as Thomas died. She moved quick!
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Well thats just opened up the whole Bartram line now. I want to go the other way lol to the Herberts.
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...I really want to find out more about Frederick J Herberts father Thomas, what the deal was with the American wife and before this....
One for tomorrow ::) Frederick J? Do you mean Frederick A Herbert born 1873 in England? By the way, there is a 4th Qrt 1873 birth reg in Oswestry for a Frederick Arthur Herbert. Arthur as a middle name rather than Albert that we had seen earlier?
Possible marriage for him in 1907 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-63K9-LY4?i=1690&cc=2063749
Monica
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Frederick J is his father 1831. he had 2 marriages. Elizabeth was Frederick A's mother. Thomas was Frederick J's father. I need to go back down this line. Talk later.
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Hi Monica, Ok my Aunt came back to me and gave me 3 things. She thinks Johnathan Jones was a carpenter. He had 2 sisters, Gladys and Sally. The lived in Merthyr Tydfil, Wales, United Kingdom. Thats all I am afraid. Not much to go on.
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She was not 100% on the carpenter. If not could quite have easily been associated with the mines as it was a mining town.
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Johnathan's birthdate would have been somewhere between 1890 and 1901 I am guessing
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Hi Daniel
There is this possible 1911 census entry for a Jonathan Jones, a carpenter by trade, living with his parents https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWX4-628
Working back through the censuses, I think these entries are for this family:
1901 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X91L-YLZ
1891 haven't found this entry
1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-CZJ5
You mentioned possible sisters' names of Gladys and Sally, none which show so far for this family. In these times, Sally was often a pet name rather than a name in its own right. One possible variant is Sarah for example. See www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=sally
There is this other family in 1911 with a Jonathan, Gwladys and Sarah www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VZ-1XF but no obvious connection so far to Merthyr Tydfil.
All guesses for now really...
You do need details from the actual marriage for Iris' parents to really move forward now :-\ Names of too common within the locality to let you make really any headway.
Monica
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Thanks so much Monica. I bumped into one of those before but did not see the birthdate which looks pretty good. I have sent to my aunt to see if anything rings a bell with her. There is not anyone else who ICross fingers.
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Whoops. There is not anyone else I can ask.
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Are there any censuses with Jonathan and Mary Griffiths and daughter Iris?
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The last census currently available is 1911 unfortunately :-\
Monica
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Apparently the 1921 was withheld but released in 2015. 1931 census was lost to a fire and 1941 didn't happen because of the war. I will see if what I sent my Aunt rings any bells with her.
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Not sure on the source of that info. The 1921 census has not been released. The earliest it could be would be c 1922 due to 100 year rule. However, the 1922 had some fundamental differences that affect the release of that data and others going forward. Its future release remains a question mark /in doubt and will continue to be a source of debate going forward. Lots of stuff online if you google, such as a discussion here www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/topic7411.html
Monica
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Hi Monica,
My Aunt is battling to provide anymore concrete info. All she can confirm is that Jonathan did not have 6 siblings but only 2 sisters. She is sure John was a carpenter or labourer as they might have called them. It might be worth me punching in John Evan Jones and Ann and see if I can get any info from this.
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I am trying to search Gladys or Gwladys Jones in the Wales censuses to see if her brother Jonathan or John and sister Sarah or Sally are in there with her. This would then give us their parents. Thought this was a clever idea but still proving hard. If we can find this it would be a breakthrough. Merthyr Tydfil too.
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Hi there.
Getting hard now to make educated (aka lucky or not ::)) guesses isn't it :-\
I do not have access to this site as I do not have a subs. You can do free searches, but you either need a subscription or credits to view the actual details. You could try and see whether you could find Maurice/Iris, Jonathan and wife (Mary Ann perhaps) in the 1939 Register, see www.rootschat.com/links/01m01/
Monica
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Daniel, do you have a subscription to Ancestry? Is this what you are using in the main for research databases?
Monica
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Yes I do. I have a worldwide subscription. That marriage certificate should turn up this week so hopefully it some info on this.
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That is great. Ancestry has just added today the 1939 Register to their databases. Previously it was only available via subs on Findmypast.
See https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61596
Maurice shows as Maurice H Herbert in 1939, living in Cambridge. The entry following this I think might be Iris but it is blanked out. Have a read through the details of the register to understand better why some entries show as redacted (including the 100yr rule if it not confirmed that the person has died).
What made me happy was that I think we do have the correct Jonathan and Mary Jane as her parents. You will confirm at least father's name from the marriage cert you are waiting for. I can see a Jonathan and Mary J Jones in Willesden. This is where Iris married Maurice in 1939. Jonathan's occupation is that of a Joiner and his birth date is in 1888 which is what we saw in the censuses we have so far for him with his family. Let's also see if we have an address match from the marriage cert and the 1939 register.
Monica
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Hi Monica.
I have made masses of progress on the Herbert's and have found I am directly related to the 1st Earl of Pembrokeshire, William 1501. There was always talk about it in the family but nobody has ever checked lol. So this is great to pass down to all the family. I have managed to go right back to the 1200's.
Now focussing on the Jones'. DHL confirmed today marriage cert will be delivered Monday.
I am still stuck on my fathers side too finding info on Richard Hall's 1797 parents details. All I have is a John and Mary. Richard married Harriet Selina Bouffler and have heaps on info on them.