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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: PMILLS on Wednesday 25 April 18 02:26 BST (UK)
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I have been looking for my Grandfathers WW2 records or information.
Pat (Patrick ) Mills, born 1/2/1905, Gortmellia,Knocknalower,mayo, Ireland. ( Death cert says 1904)
I have applied for his records at the APC twice with both dates with no luck.He severed with the Blackcats, I have a photo that shows him in uniform with the cat.He never spoke of the war to me(Grandson) and we were close until his death.Two of his children are still alive and in their 80s,they say he was in the Royal Engineers.He never claimed his medals and I would like to get them in the family before its to late.I have found someone I thought was him and so did my uncles but the APC said the dates didn't match.My Grandfather moved to New Zealand from Glasgow in the 1950'sish and worked on building dam's,its ANZAC day here in New Zealand today,two years ago I started this search which I thought would be fast and easy and my uncle's could Parade my Grandfathers medals along with the next generations.I have no idea where to go next,I would be very thankful for any advice.
Patrick Mills ( named after my Grandfather )
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H and welcome to rootschat ;D
This is how you apply for the records which are held by the Ministry of Defence (MOD).
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records
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Thanks,but I have done so two times with the birth dates I had as stated above with no luck
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Thanks,but I have done so two times with the birth dates I had as stated above with no luck
You said the APC ??? So.... Army Personnel Centre??? When you meant the MOD
So you need to apply and get a copy of his birth certificate to give you the correct registered date of birth.
This may help you understand why he never spoke about his service http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211 and maybe you can find other information here about him https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/4981/royal-engineers/
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This looks to be the birth registration https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01791/1702918.pdf
It's possible that his father gave a false date of birth if he was a bit late registering it (to avoid a penalty).
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This looks to be the birth registration https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01791/1702918.pdf
It's possible that his father gave a false date of birth if he was a bit late registering it (to avoid a penalty).
If that is him, then this may be him in the 1911 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002974464/ or maybe not as wifes name was Anne not Mary as on cert
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Let me start by saying how thankful I am for the help.I will give a bit more detail - I had the death cert which had the date of birth as 1/2/1904 and said ex serviceman.I applied to the MOD with no luck,this came back to me as from the APC-Disclosures,I tried everything I could think of and came up blank,I started to think he had never been in the Army at all,all I had to go on was stories.Then one of my uncles found a photo of my grandfather in uniform and a few months later my cousin found the birth cert.I reapplied under the date on the birth cert- 1/2/1905 (shaunJ your link is him) again with no luck. I have e-mailed a number of times with a lovely women from the APC and I must say they(she) has been great.
A friend of mine who's ex brit Army and now in the NZ Army looked at the photo and pointed out the blackcat on the shoulder, he also did some searching and came up with a Patrick Mills that seemed to fit but the APC said the dates didn't match.
I have been told that my Grandmother ( or whoever it was ) may have got the DOB for the death cert wrong through being upset at the time.
We had earthquakes here in 2011 and my Grandfathers grave was damaged,my uncles paid to have it fixed and I had to inform them that the dates on it,age and DOB were wrong which was a bit upsetting for two guys in their 80's.
I also find it interesting that my Grandfather would have been in his mid 30's at the start of the 2nd ww, would this have been normal ?
Thanks for everything guys,anything is great and if I can supply anything that may help please let me know.
Pat
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I also find it interesting that my Grandfather would have been in his mid 30's at the start of the 2nd ww, would this have been normal ?
When war was declared on 3 Sep 1939, all men between 18 and 41 had to register for service. There were exceptions for a number of trades and for the unfit. So 33 was quite normal. Apart from the black cat which was the emblem of the 1st London, later 56th London Division, are any other insignia identifiable on the uniform? Can't say it will help given the efforts you have already made but you never know!
MaxD
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I will try to upload his photo
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He may have been with 17th Indian Division which used a Black Cat emblem. If so he could have enlisted into the British Indian Army and his records will probably be in India which may explain why they couldn't find them in APC Glasgow.
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Yes - the two black cat emblems are quite different so I felt if we saw the image it might provide a steer.
MaxD
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Hope this works and is clear
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close up
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Helps in that it is the insignia of the 1st London Division (56th London) so not the Indian Army. The arm of service strip below the cat is bi-coloured so could well be Royal Engineers but in black and white can't be sure.
What were the details of the Patrick Mills your ex-army friend came up with?
Clutching at straws but don't want to give up!
MaxD
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There was a Patrick Mills in Croydon at the outbreak of war - born 1904, with Kathleen Hunt - might that be him ? Looks like they married in 1949.
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Hi Guys, The photo is a copy and no one has the original so its the best I can do at this point,but ill keep looking.
MY grandfather married my grandmother on the 2nd of November 1928 in Hutchensontown,Glasgow.
They lived in Glasgow not London and my grandmother was Britget Coyne, her parents were John and Catherine.My Grandfathers parents were Thomas and Mary Doherty.
I have found a number of family things while looking for the war records and have a copy of the Marriage cert etc.
I, with help from my mate found what we thought was him and my uncles did to,keeping in mind that my uncles are in their 80s they have done very well but a few small things have been wrong.The person was a Acting Staff Sergeant,Royal Engineers, # 103229.This person also was awarded a BEM which is in the London Gazette,Jan 9th 1946.Hope there are some glues here,thanks guys.
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Was the source for your findings with your mate and uncles Forces War Records. This does have a listing for that name and rank etc. If so, did you get whatever record they have for him? And did it give any information that tied him to your family? My gut feeling is that it didn't in that only the MOD have WW2 service records.
Also, when you applied for his records, did you quote both the service number and the date of birth on both occasions?
Were there any children born in the war years? Birth certs sometimes have service numbers on them.
Does the photograph show any sleeve insignia as in badges of rank?
Lots of questions I'm afraid, just trying to find clues!
MaxD
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I did see the record on the site you mention,the second time I applied to the APC with the 1905 date I mentioned the person in the site and the service number,they said they could not find anything for the dates I put forward and the dates didn't much for the service number I sent.My mate is much better at this than me as he had researched his own family,he traced a lot of stuff on my grandfather,a number of streets they lived in Scotland,birth certs of children etc.He said he thought the person on the war-forces site was my grandfather,I'm not on the site and they didn't seem to show a date of birth so I didn't see how it would help to join.My dad is the youngest,he was born on the 15th of August 1939,just before the war so not sure this will help.The photo sadly is as it is,nothing else can be seen.
Thanks.
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Even though the main information page says "You need to know the person’s full name, date of birth and service number the actual search application document says "SERVICE NUMBER AND/OR DATE OF BIRTH MUST BE INCLUDED". This needs to be clarified with them.
So I think that what we are saying is to just apply with the service number and no date of birth with a notation that the date of birth on his death certificate is known to be incorrect.
If this works then you are paying to just see this particular service record to set yourself at ease that it is not the right person otherwise you will always wonder (well I would) ;D.
You would know better than us what sort of help the person at the APC has given you. Perhaps you are confident that they have cross checked the info to a point where nothing else matches - next of kin, a Glasgow address etc. - I don't know if they go that far for you. Many men lied about their age to enlist and I am sure they would know this, but perhaps what they have found is that this man is, for example, only aged 20 so way out of the ballpark.
I can't believe that after 70 years they still feel unable to release a basic nominal roll of those who served - just name, number and where enlisted would do.
Debra :)
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I have been trying to think of anywhere else there might be a mention of Patrick's military service.
You probably know this but his wife and children arrived in New Zealand on the 'Tamaroa' in January 1954.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P16-ML
Mentioned on the shipping manifest is 'Cubbitt and Zschokki' (Cubitts and Zschokke) who had the contract for the Roxburgh Hydro-electric power project. Plenty about it online including some videos, and these parliamentary papers say that the men were flown from the UK to New Zealand - is that how your grandfather arrived?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lzu/
It starts on page 465 and the whole thing is quite interesting for background info but the bits about the contracted workers are on pages 476, 480, 506, 511, 543 and possibly more. Of most interest is the mention on pages 511/512 where one of the men says that he went to the High Commissioner's office in London in response to advertisements and put in an application. It is a long shot, but I wonder if any of this documentation still survives?
I had a look at Archway NZ and there are some mentions of the company there so maybe you should contact NZ Archives first to see what they have first.
Do you know if your grandmother was on an assisted passage? The records can be hugely informative but as far as I can see there are only Immigration Case Files for non-British immigrants indexed on Archway. I don't know why this is, perhaps someone on the NZ board might know. I thought that they followed the same British immigration application system as Australia after 1949.
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra,
You are right, my grandfather from what I understand learn't a few things in the army and was good at blowing things up.He worked on the Loch sloy hydro-electric scheme in Inveruglas for Edmund Nuttall and Sons as a General Foreman in charge of the gangs.
I have a certificate for him for the British Rock Tunnelling Record dated 18th April 1951( I have a photo of this).We also have the invite to the opening by the Queen to him and my Grandmother dated 18th October 1950.He was presented with a silver cigarette case by the Queen.
My understanding is as part of his contract to come to New Zealand he had to do at least two years before the family could come out.My Grandparents had lost a child in a fire,the oldest stayed behind and one,a girl was kept by my grandmothers mother.As I've stated my grandfather didn't talk about the war,as a matter of fact he didn't talk a lot at all,he was a big man,6'5 or so but very quite.I was very close to him wright up until his death.Trying to get these records and hopefully his medals has brought a lot of info forward and been interesting. EG: the girl child I talk about above, as with all the children was put with relatives after the fire,after the family got sorted my grandmothers mother refused to give her back.I have thought about the guy we thought was my grandfather,the dates could be wrong somewhere but I'm not sure they would give them to me now and I feel a bit funny if they are not him and someone else's family member which makes things difficult.Thanks for the info and help.
Thanks.
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The either/or is correct, they will work from either. Thus if you cite both and one is wrong then they have no choice but to say there is no match. As to whether you apply again, using only the service number, as Dundee is intimating, it all rather depends on how keen you are to at least eliminate the man with the service number in Forces War Records. It would be interesting to know how your mate is so convinced that the Forces War Records man is yours. If he is simply looking at the listing that comes up by searching the name then he has more insight than most of us!
MaxD
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Hi,i had a similar experience while trying to find my fathers army records.my father like a lot of men never spoke of his time during the war and we were more or less discouraged to ask,this resulted in when i was filling out the application form i was at a loss as i didn't know his army number nor even which regiment he was in so i applied with his D.O.B. i sent the form off along with the fee,and a few weeks later i recieved a letter from the m.o.d. saying there was no match for my dads name and D.O.B. i rang the records office in glasgow and was told they had done a search and there was no record of my father being in the army during ww2,and more or less that was the end of the matter.
i pushed the issue a bit further and asked could they look at any other record that had the same name and date of birth but different year of birth,there was one match but unfortunately it wasn't the record i was after. i took things a bit further again as i knew for certain my dad served in the army,i got the phone number for a higher department in the records dept and spoke to a very helpful lady,i asked her if she could look at some records a few days before and a few days after my dads d.o.b.(which should have been done in the first place ) and she rang me back within an hour and asked who my dads next of kin was,when i told her this,she confirmed she had found my dads records. there was a days discrepancy in my dads d.o.b. and the date on his enlistment papers.
apologies for the long winded answer,but the m.o.d. will only look at the date you put on your application and if there is no match they'll send back your application,so it might be worth your while to push for a further search as there could be a clerical error as in my dads enlistment papers.
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Thanks guys for all your help, I have been looking at all the things you have put up.My mate is overseas with the army so not available at the moment. I think I will contact the APC/MOD again and see if they can do more to help,. Thanks, Pat
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Just an update. Been five years or so since I started this search for my grandfather's ww2 records and although I have found a lot of info out I still have had no luck with his records, including two applications to the APC. Have no idea where to go from here.
Thanks for all the help.