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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RevHead on Sunday 22 April 18 12:02 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping someone might steer me in the right direction.
I'm endeavouring to find a confirmed link between one of my wife's ancestors and the man he claimed was his father (born out of wedlock).
I'm told there were some bastard laws/courts that I could search in the UK (I'm resident in Australia). Where should I look?
Overview: Roberts Hastings Smith (1844 - 1901, my wife's GG Grandfather) claimed Charles Lennox Butler (1813 - 1885) was his father. Here is the circumstantial evidence to backup the claim:
1. Charles Lennox Butler (CLB) is listed as the father on Robert Hastings Smith's (RHS) death certificate in 1901 (with a hand-written notation adjacent to the entry saying "correct")
2. RHS names his oldest son Charles Lennox Smith (and his youngest daughter Charlotte Butler Smith)
3. RHS has multiple trips back to England during his lifetime, and
4. RHS apparently has a "pension" given to him through Meads Solicitors that ends in 1885 the time of Charles Lennox Butler's death (I haven't seen proof of this - just read about it on another rootschat thread). - Note: I purchased a copy of the will of CLB but it had not provision for RHS in it.
Hope someone can point me in the right direction for me to investigate further. Thanks
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Any Bastardy records are likely to be held in the relevant County Records Office or Archive.
Where was RHS born?
Have a read of this guide:
https://www.genguide.co.uk/source/bastardy-documents-parish-poor-law/140/
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Thanks for the quick reply KGarrard - on the marriage certificate he lists it as Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire, approx 1844.
Yes, I'd seen that page you linked to. Is there a website in Buckinghamshire I should be searching?
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The money paid to a love child was often specified to end when child reached a certain age
in my grandmothers case it was aged 13 thru an Affiliation Order in 1900
I phoned the relevant GRO to see if such an order existed and paid them to find it .
Was informed that such court cases rarely made the newspapers .
some court records are available on Ancestry and Genes Reunited now
looks like you have plenty of proof without DNA a distant match did confirm the paper trail we found.
..if he paid the pension he acknowledged paternity
The affiliation order we received is a beautiful document and includes details of the medical costs that were paid .....but i didnt know how to find out if payments were continued to be paid ..it would have been interesting to know if they went to the birth mother or foster parents .
good luck finding more
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Try a search for Buckinghamshire Records Office, or Buckinghamshire Archives.
Aylesbury parish was in Aylesbury Registration District.
Not seeing a Robert Smith birth in Aylesbury RD in the 1840's?
(Search via FreeBMD.org.uk)
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Was this by any chance the honourable Charles lennox Butler son of 13th lord of
just seen an anoouncement about his wifes death in 1867 in the northamton Mercury 5th jan
they lived at coton house Warwick
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Yes - brigidmac - that's the one.
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have you seen newspaper articles about him
i can see that there are some on Genes Reunited but dont have subs to open full article
1 is in Bucks herald 28th dec something about his daughter Ellen Caroline .
by the way what was Robert Smiths mother's name
+ profession
and where did she give birth ? a high status hospital or a private house ..?
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Brigidmac - when you say "have you seen newspaper articles about him?" do you mean Robert Hastings Smith or Charles Lennox Butler? I've seen a few newspaper articles about RHS but not CLB.
Robert Smith lists his mother's name as "Anne" on his marriage certificate (with a note saying "maiden name not known") but on another document it's listed as "Mary". I don't have a birth certificate for him. He lists his profession as "gentleman" but he never really had a job. His letters to an Australian newspaper show him as quite articulate and educated.
And thanks KGarrard for your direction. Perhaps he wasn't born in Aylesbury.... the info he listed on his Marriage Certificate may not have been correct.
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The Hon. Charles Lennox Butler, born 1813, died on the 5th March 1885 in Cannes. He was married twice, in 1835 to Eliza Holland, who died in 1866, and secondly to Constance Isabel Walcott in 1872. He was the sixth son of James, 22d Lord Dunboyne, and uncle of Lord Dunboyne. The Times (London, England), Wednesday, Mar 11, 1885.
Stan
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Thanks Stan - yes I have some info on Charles Lennox Butler - I am trying to work out how to verify he was the father of my wife's ancestor Robert Hastings Smith as he (RHS) claimed.
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I'm getting distracted looking at these papers ;Yes I was looking at Charles Lennox Butler
There seem to be another family of BUTLER's who are described as trouble making gypsies
Charles lennox was nominated as a sherriff living at Cotton House Rugby(which is surely not in Bucks ) in nov 1861
If we had mother's name there may be something to link Charles directly to Robert
#sorry missed the post Ann or Mary
Do you have her census addresses before and after the birth of Robert ?
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Do we know where Roberts middle name Hastings came from
or is it a double barrelled surname ?
Do you have his birth records ?
I hope his mother wasnt related to
Rebecca Smith who was executed for murdering her infant child ..1st sep 1849 Bucks. gazette
we may be able to find school records for Robert they would give parent or guardian name
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Did RHS emigrate to Australia? (as you say he travelled to England several times)
If so, do you know when he came to Australia and who with?
Do you have him on any English census, with or without mother, siblings or family?
It seems a little odd that he does not know the maiden name of his own mother. If he was illegitimate he may have been registered with her surname and later took the surname Smith if his mother married for example.
He gave the information about her on his own marriage certificate and said her name was Anne. What was the other document which named her as Mary?
Do you know what happened to Anne?
Did RHS die in Australia? Sometimes information on d/cs is not correct, especially relating to parents of the deceased.
I understand you are trying to confirm the story, but I think some of your 'evidence' is perhaps a bit 'weak' for want of a better term (sorry) eg the names he gives his children. :) This is not proof that CLB is his father, but only that he believes CLB is his father. :-\
Like brigidmac, I am curious about the middle name of Hastings, and wonder if that is a clue to his mother's surname or .... if it has some other relevance? (some middle names end up being red herrings ... some not)
If you can locate living descendants of CLB and persuade them to take a DNA test I think that might give you some answers. :)
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I.d
Like to do some searches but lack information there are definitely sone RoBert Hastings on school records and on censuses and on ships arriving in uk and lots of Robert Smiths ....
Are you sure about his birth year ..was that also from marriage certificates
Any information on the ship records you have
..like address oof destination .?
Also do you have addresses of the Hon. Charles in 1841 51 61 71 and 81
Nothing came up when I searched newspapers on ancestry tho the articles DO exist on Genes site ..
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Also do you have addresses of the Hon. Charles in 1841 51 61 71 and 81
Nothing came up when I searched newspapers on ancestry tho the articles DO exist on Genes site ..
"The Choice CELLAR of WINES of the Hon. Charles Lennox- Butler, deceased, late of 5, Belgrave-square,......" Morning Post - Monday 03 August 1885
Stan
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what town ..stan ?
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I've just read the earlier thread on this man, is it possible to link the 2 threads together?
Reading the other thread it appears that Robert arrived as Robert Smith if I've understood everything correctly.
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I've just read the earlier thread on this man, is it possible to link the 2 threads together?
Reading the other thread it appears that Robert arrived as Robert Smith if I've understood everything correctly.
Here is a link to the other thread which contains quite a lot of information:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=710802.0
Skimming through it, I have some doubts about his claim of being related to CLB. ;) :)
I would still go the DNA route if at all possible ...
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what town ..stan ?
London
Stan
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Thanks everyone for your input into this:
brigidmac - you said “The money paid to a love child was often specified to end when child reached a certain age” - could this be an example of a “Remittance Man” i.e. RHS was paid by the Butler family to stay away?
You also asked: “what was Robert Smiths mother's name + profession, and where did she give birth ? a high status hospital or a private house ..?” - I don’t have any details other than the names of Mary or possibly Anne.
I don’t have any birth records of Robert Hastings Smith. The earliest record (I think) I have of him is his arrival in Australia in 1863 (aged 19) on board the “Nemmo”
He’s back on board the SS “John Elder” that leaves Sydney on 8th June 1883 to London, and arrives back into Sydney on 29/9/1883 (3.5 months later) on the SS “Luisiana”. There’s a court case later that year where he’s charged with attempted murder of his wife’s boyfriend.
Ruskie - yes RHS dies in Australia at Macquarie Street Asylum in Parramatta (New South Wales) on 23/8/1901
Your advice on getting a DNA comparison with a living relative of Charles Butler is probably going to be the best bet. My wife and I did the ancestry.com DNA test about a month ago snd we’re currently waiting for the response. So do I see if there’s any living descendants of Charles Lennox Butler on ancestry.com and try to contact them? I’m sure I’ll work it out once the results come back from ancestry.com
Thanks again for everyone’s input.
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Just to add to the information on Robert, he went to New Zealand before he came to Australia. He cause some problems in New Zealand and then came to Australia. I have not been able to track down his shipping records to New Zealand and then to Australia. Robert Smith is a popular name. As Revhead stated Robert had been in receipt of money, which was sent through a solicitors by the name of Meads. Would it be possible to obtain old solicitors records in England?
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I've had my wife's (the gg grand-daughter of Robert Hastings Smith) DNA results uploaded to ancestry.com
As I'm relatively new to this - what is the best way to establish a DNA link with a descendant of Charles Butler (the person Robert Hastings Smith claimed was his father)?
Thanks for everyone's help so far.
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If there's no current matches, you'd have to hope a relative would be willing to take a DNA test. The ideal would be for a male line descendant on both sides for y-DNA. If the relationship in terms of cousins is too far apart, you might not be able to get a good match even if they are related:
https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/q/12848/731
I don't think there was ever any requirements for solicitors documents of this nature to be stored or handed over to record offices. Sometimes record offices do acquire older records but it's not consistent and you'd have to know where this particular "Meads Solicitors" were based in England to figure out if anything survives.
To be honest, looking at the way the payments are described in reports of his bankruptcy in NZ, I would be very surprised if there was anything official in terms of court records or any sort of contract. It does sound more like he had some sort of allowance, it even says it could be stopped at any time, and that sort of thing could easily be arranged by instructing someone who worked for the person sending to send the appropriate money order on a regular basis, no solicitor required.
See: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18640924.2.18 "a gentleman in England"
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Thanks jorose - very helpful, although I think it's going to be quite difficult to trackdown a male line descendant from both sides for DNA tests - especially from the the "nobility side" that Robert Hastings Smith claimed as his family. I may have hit a (temporary?) block with this part of my research.
Anyway - DNA testing is improving/changing all the time isn't it? Perhaps there might be something that could be shown down the track.
Thanks for the link to the NZ publication.
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Yes, the best test would be a YDNA test of a direct male descendant of Charles Butler and one of Robert Hastings Smith (and hope that each man's father actually was his father). ;)
That would probably definitely perhaps give you the answers you want.
However ... approaching a relative of Charles Butler, if you can find one, might need to be tackled carefully as they may know nothing of Charles, and if they do they may not believe he fathered an illegitimate child (some people look at their ancestors through rose coloured glasses). You may need to offer to pay for their test if they are reluctant to take one. Prepare yourself for them to refuse, but perhaps another descendant would be willing to help you. :-\
Good luck and please let us know how you get on.
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Sorry! I put post on wrong thread. :-[
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Rev. Never heard of Remittance.man
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I traced descendantd of mums great grandfather with lots of roots help ..many name changes thru female line cos boys didn't d survive
When mum did DNA I looked at 3rd or 4th cousins with those surnameseeking on.trees or place of origin nearby .we found confirmation
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We do have my Uncle who is a direct male descendant who has done his DNA. Hopefully one day there is a break through.