RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Marmalady on Sunday 08 April 18 17:51 BST (UK)
-
My Grandfather's elder brother Edward William Wainwright was born on 16th Sept 1879 -- I have his birth certificate to prove this.
He was not baptised as a baby, but as a teenager in May 1896. Here his birthdate is given as 23rd Sept 1880 -- a year and a week later!
This confusion of birthdates continued into later life. In 1911, when he would be in his early 30s, he travels from Germany into Belgium. On his entry documents, he originally gives his birthdate as 23 Sept 1880, but this is crossed out and 16 Sept 1879 written in a different hand
Can anyone think of any reason for the use of two birthdates like this?
I have ruled out the death of a 1879 baby and ensuing re-use of names for a 1880 baby.
-
People back then had such poor literacy skills - they really didn't know their age/DOB and just guessed. It was quite common for dates to be incorrect.
Sandra
-
My grandfather, born 1880, was always muddled about his birthdate .....1939 Register is completely wrong....no wonder he was surprised to get his old age pension.....he was a year out!
-
Birthdays were not celebrated and many families had many children so remembering their ages was not so important as it would be now where everyone has to be documented on everything.
Likely he really didn't know his birth date, possible was told different dates at different times.
-
I would have thought that the reason in this case was what you've said - the discrepancy between the baptism date and the birth registration date. (add- the different hand had had sight of the birth cert)
My father was perfectly literate but always gave his DofB as a year later that it was - except when he got to 80 ;D
-
If he was the eldest child, was he born "a bit too soon" after his parents wedding?
My Great Aunt always claimed to be a year younger than she was for this reason. When official documents were needed (ie passport etc) the real age had to be used.
-
I'm having trouble understanding the title of this thread Why would someone use a wrong birthdate despite knowing his correct one?
Why do you think that he knew his birthdate? Just because there's a birth registration for a particular date doesn't mean that he either knew the date of had a copy of his certificate.
It could be that there was an earlier child with the same name who died and his birth didn't actually get registered, etc.
My father-in-law was born before WWI and never remembered his exact birthdate even though his date of birth is on his birth certificate, in baptismal register, school roll book, etc. If he really, really, really needed the exact date them the birth certificate was produced but that was only in later years when he had to fill out official forms.
-
If he was the eldest child, was he born "a bit too soon" after his parents wedding?
My Great Aunt always claimed to be a year younger than she was for this reason.
That was the very reason my grandmother claimed to be a year younger. It was pure luck that my uncle found her birth certificate before he registered her death when she died aged nearly 99 - although everyone thought she was 98. I often wonder if she would have admitted it if she'd reached 100, or whether after all those years she'd really forgotten how old she was.
-
He was the second child of the family -- so the "too soon after the wedding" does not apply
He was also literate & numerate -- in 1901 he was a Wages Clerk, but whilst travelling around Europe
he was a teacher of English
I presumed he would know of his correct birthdate -- or at least have a passport / documents with the correct date -- who else in Antwerp would have access to records to have the date on his Belgian entry papers corrected?
-
I have a case of one family member dying and basically being replaced by the next one that was born just within the year?
So could it be something like that.
xin
-
It could just be down to ineptness of the informant - my Dad will forever have a middle name of Edgar to the Russian Visa authorities because I had a blip instead of writing Ernest
-
I have a case of one family member dying and basically being replaced by the next one that was born just within the year?
So could it be something like that.
xin
That was the first thing I checked and ruled out
GRO shows his birth in 1879
There is no corresponding death and birth of a later child with the same names
It could just be down to ineptness of the informant - my Dad will forever have a middle name of Edgar to the Russian Visa authorities because I had a blip instead of writing Ernest
If the wrong date was on one document, I could understand it just being a mistake either on the part of the informant or the person entering the information -- but for the wrong date to be on two entirely different documents 15 years apart is surely more than a coincidence? Especially as the second, foreign, document is corrected to the date that matches his birth certificate
-
If he was the eldest child, was he born "a bit too soon" after his parents wedding?
My Great Aunt always claimed to be a year younger than she was for this reason. When official documents were needed (ie passport etc) the real age had to be used.
This was the case with my grandmother - born before the wedding but registered after it, sent to school a year late to keep up the deception. My father only found out the truth when she died. What I don't know is whether she herself was always aware of the deception.
-
Wouldn't it be easier to just claim you were married a year longer than start your child at school later etc
I know one of my ancestors who on the 1911 census added time to the length of their marriage, and included the illegitamate son as a child of the marriage (so I guess he was both of theirs - he was stationed in India from 7 months before the child was born for 2 years, they then married once he returned)
-
People back then had such poor literacy skills - they really didn't know their age/DOB and just guessed. It was quite common for dates to be incorrect.
Sandra
The Elementary Education Act of 1880, made school attendance compulsory.
Stan
-
As I said in an earlier reply, he was the second child of the family so any fudging of dates to hide an early birth does not apply
-
Were his parents present when he was baptised as a teenager when the incorrect birthdate was given? It must have been something important such as he needed proof of age for being accepted on an apprenticeship course with an age limit on it, for example. When do you stop acting out the lie, when you know that there's an "official" record for Sept 1880?
One of my mother's cousins related to me that her father had a quandary about his surname. His parents had unofficially changed the family's surname and he'd used it without thinking until he had his first child and then wondered if he should give his original surname when he registered the baby.
-
Were his parents present when he was baptised as a teenager when the incorrect birthdate was given? It must have been something important such as he needed proof of age for being accepted on an apprenticeship course with an age limit on it, for example. When do you stop acting out the lie, when you know that there's an "official" record for Sept 1880?
His parents were certainly named in the baptismal register, so I presume they were present
His two younger brothers were baptised the next week -- aged 10 and 4.
As for the baptismal register being an "official document", surely his birth certificate would be more official?
He must have known the two dates for them both to appear on the Belgian documents
And on the 1939 Register he uses the correct 1879 date
-
I think you are all missing the point here.
In 1911, when he would be in his early 30s, he travels from Germany into Belgium. On his entry documents, he originally gives his birthdate as 23 Sept 1880, but this is crossed out and 16 Sept 1879 written in a different hand
....who else in Antwerp would have access to records to have the date on his Belgian entry papers corrected?
Debra :)
-
My Grandfather's elder brother Edward William Wainwright was born on 16th Sept 1879 -- I have his birth certificate to prove this.
He was not baptised as a baby, but as a teenager in May 1896. Here his birthdate is given as 23rd Sept 1880 -- a year and a week later!
This confusion of birthdates continued into later life. In 1911, when he would be in his early 30s, he travels from Germany into Belgium. On his entry documents, he originally gives his birthdate as 23 Sept 1880, but this is crossed out and 16 Sept 1879 written in a different hand
Can anyone think of any reason for the use of two birthdates like this?
I have ruled out the death of a 1879 baby and ensuing re-use of names for a 1880 baby.
The thing that stands out for me is the baptism as a teen. Not for any nefarious reason but simply because thats possibly the 1st time he is aware of any possible DOB. And it is given as Sep 23 1880.
He then becomes his own future informant for any further questions ie travel .
I question why only the Belgian authorities made the change and not any others. I wonder if he was present for the 1911 Census which I think DOBs are given.
Have you checked if Edward travelled with a parent and they informed the Belgian authority of the difference , or maybe he himself realised and corrected it.
Is there a similar German entry?
Interesting puzzle :)
-
I wonder if he was present for the 1911 Census which I think DOBs are given.
Dates of birth are given on the 1939 register but not on the 1911 census.
-
It sounds like he didn't use the wrong birthdate on purpose. He was either using his baptismal record (he would have heard the date being given, and it would be his easiest document to source - ie from the local church) or he was misinformed by his parents/guardian (who could have originated the wrong date on the baptismal record anyway).
He would have had no reason to double check the date against his birth certificate (why would he disbelieve the church/his parents?). But maybe at some point after his entry into Belgium someone wanted official proof of his age. The easiest document to obtain through official channels would be a birth certificate, which then revealed the true date. The paperwork was then altered accordingly.
Does Edward William Wainwright leave any more birthdate/year records after his Brussels visit? Does he now consistently use the 'new' birthdate/year?
The question becomes - why was the date wrong on the baptismal record? Maybe his parents had a poor memory, or remembered another event they associated with Edward's birth. Or did his parents die when Edward was young? Could Edward have provided his own date of birth at his baptism, and got it wrong himself because he was misinformed or mis-remembered?
-
My Grandpa's birthday was always said to be Christmas Day, but when I got his birth record from Boston, it showed that he was born on 23rd December! I've thought since that maybe it was celebrated on Christmas Day when he was a child, one of a large family, perhaps 2 celebrations in 1.
-
My Grandpa's birthday was always said to be Christmas Day, but when I got his birth record from Boston, it showed that he was born on 23rd December! I've thought since that maybe it was celebrated on Christmas Day when he was a child, one of a large family, perhaps 2 celebrations in 1.
We were always told my grandmother was born on May Day, and my grandfather on April Fool's Day. It turns out that both were born a couple days out of those dates. Associating a birthday with another special event makes it easier to remember.
The OP, however, is not just the day, but a whole year as well! Does the year tally on the Censuses, I wonder? If not, then the error could reside in the parents (assuming they gave the enumerator the information). If the years do tally, then maybe Edward was the one who got things wrong.
-
Could it be a simple mistake on the baptism record, made by the vicar, especially as it was an older baptism? My great x 3 grandfather was born 6th September 1802 in Yarmouth and baptised the following day. 6 years later for some reason he was baptised again with his siblings in London on 15th April 1808. His date of birth on that record is given as 6th September 1808! Obviously impossible.
I think as suggested earlier that maybe when he was asked for proof of identity he handed over his baptism certificate. Then when handed back the papers later he looked at them, realised the date was wrong and asked for it to be corrected. As I understand it, those were the only two times the wrong date was given?
-
My husband's step mother never did know exactly which date she was born on.
Needing a passport in her 30s she asked her parents for her birth cert. and found a different date to the one she'd always celebrated her birthday. The official date was almost 1 week after the birth date she knew.
It was queried with her parents and her mother stated she knew what date her daughter was born (she was 1 of 12 children though) and it was the date she'd always celebrated her birthday. Her father however said he'd have put the correct date in - it was about 3 weeks after the birth that he registered her. Who do you believe - she got around it by having a family day on the first date and a quite meal out with her husband on the second date ;D
This was a birth in 1928.
-
My husband's step mother never did know exactly which date she was born on.
Needing a passport in her 30s she asked her parents for her birth cert. and found a different date to the one she'd always celebrated her birthday. The official date was almost 1 week after the birth date she knew.
It was queried with her parents and her mother stated she knew what date her daughter was born (she was 1 of 12 children though) and it was the date she'd always celebrated her birthday. Her father however said he'd have put the correct date in - it was about 3 weeks after the birth that he registered her. Who do you believe - she got around it by having a family day on the first date and a quite meal out with her husband on the second date ;D
This was a birth in 1928.
My grandmother’s birth certificate shows her birth as the 25th, six days later than her actual birth on the 19th, this was to hide the fact that her father had missed the 42 day Registration period. By saying it was the 25th he got it in with a day to spare.
-
My lOH's stepmother's father registered her about a month after the birth so he wasn't near the date limit. That's the trouble, we could understand it if it was to make the register date limit but one of her parents made the mistake either in telling her the wrong date or registering with the wrong date.
-
The OP, however, is not just the day, but a whole year as well! Does the year tally on the Censuses, I wonder? If not, then the error could reside in the parents (assuming they gave the enumerator the information). If the years do tally, then maybe Edward was the one who got things wrong.
The ages given on censuses tally with the 1879 birthdate:
1881 age given 1 yr actual age 18 months
1891 age given 11 yrs actual age 11 1/2
1901 age given 21 yrs actual age 21 1/2
not on 1911 census
Baptism in 1896 age given 17 actual age 16 1/2 birthdate in register of 1880 would mean age of 15 1/2
Entry into Belgium in 1911 1880 date corrected to 1879 date
1939 census 1879 birthdate given
-
The ages given on censuses tally with the 1879 birthdate:
1881 age given 1 yr actual age 18 months
1891 age given 11 yrs actual age 11 1/2
1901 age given 21 yrs actual age 21 1/2
not on 1911 census
Baptism in 1896 age given 17 actual age 16 1/2 birthdate in register of 1880 would mean age of 15 1/2
Entry into Belgium in 1911 1880 date corrected to 1879 date
1939 census 1879 birthdate given
Was he living with the same people throughout the census years? It looks as if whoever informed the enumerator was well aware of the correct year (we can't tell which specific birthday was taken). Even the baptism shows that they knew the correct year (he was 17 in 1896).
But how strange that the baptismal record shows that his stated age and birthdate don't match. Its odd no one noticed, so I reckon it was a scribal error on the part of the vicar/recorder at that time. It was only when Edward needed official proof of his age that he or someone picked up on the error, and his birth certificate was checked.
Or maybe Edward always knew the correct date, and the baptismal entry writer is the source of the errors. Did Edward fill the original entries in on the form? If someone other than Edward filled in the form using the baptismal record, then Edward might have made the correction himself.
Or it was a possible compound error; the family got the birthday wrong - the baptismal record took the family error, and also got the birth year wrong - someone in need of official proof noticed the discrepancy in the baptismal record regarding the year of birth and supposed age - the birth certificate was obtained and the double error revealed!
You may never find out, but its an interesting anecdote to add to his life story.
-
So the only time the wrong birthdate is given is on the baptism and the entry into Belgium? I think it could just be, as I suggested earlier a mistake on the baptism record.
-
Was he living with the same people throughout the census years? It looks as if whoever informed the enumerator was well aware of the correct year (we can't tell which specific birthday was taken). Even the baptism shows that they knew the correct year (he was 17 in 1896).
But how strange that the baptismal record shows that his stated age and birthdate don't match. Its odd no one noticed, so I reckon it was a scribal error on the part of the vicar/recorder at that time. It was only when Edward needed official proof of his age that he or someone picked up on the error, and his birth certificate was checked.
Or maybe Edward always knew the correct date, and the baptismal entry writer is the source of the errors. Did Edward fill the original entries in on the form? If someone other than Edward filled in the form using the baptismal record, then Edward might have made the correction himself.
Or it was a possible compound error; the family got the birthday wrong - the baptismal record took the family error, and also got the birth year wrong - someone in need of official proof noticed the discrepancy in the baptismal record regarding the year of birth and supposed age - the birth certificate was obtained and the double error revealed!
You may never find out, but its an interesting anecdote to add to his life story.
Yes, he was living with his parents on all 3 censuses
As he did not need to give his age on entry into Belgium, only his birthdate it is unlikely any would pick up on a discrepancy.
I haven't got a baptismal certificate for him, only the entry in the register --but I think any such baptismal certificates that I have seen have only got date of baptism recorded, not age or date of birth
And would a man of 31 carry around a baptismal certificate? I would have thought, even at that time, a passport would be considered sufficient identification
I am presuming the passport had the correct 1879 date and it was when this was compared to the information on his entry form that the discrepancy was noted and the alteration made
As you say, we will probably never know the reason, it will forever be yet another little mystery attached to my father's family
-
Coming back to the original question
" Why would someone use a wrong birthdate despite knowing his correct one? "
It's difficult to know if it's a deliberate lie or just a transcribing error or forgetfulness in sunset years.
I have a great great grandfather born 1810 and different census years his age gradually became younger and finally in 1881 census his date of birth showed 1820.
Another well off ancestor was 80 years in the 1841 census and he died in 1849 and his headstone shows not 88 years but AGE 95.
He was born in 1755 so when he died in 1749 he had not reached 95 years.
Deliberate untruth or just honest mistake - Who Knows?
This reminds me of Podark's Aunt Agatha who set her heart on having a 100th birthday party and Russ' arch enemy, the cold calculating George Warleggan cancels her birthday party and exposed her real age.
This suggests this kind of deliberate lying probably happened.
Andy_T
-
I have wondered the same thing. My aunt did the same thing. On her marriage license she stated her age as two years younger then her real age, and then in the next census she stated her real age. I have wondered if she made herself younger than she really was because her husband was four years younger? Was it not appropriate for a women to marry a man four years younger than herself but it was OK to marry someone two years younger?
-
I have three dates of birth for my grandad-
1) My dad said his dad was born on 6th October;
2) Birth certificate says 1st October 1887
3) 1939 Register has 26 October 1888
His sister also had some variations-
1) Birth certificate 27th October 1889;
2) First marriage "aged 24" when actually 26;
3) Second marriage "aged 66" when actually 67;
4) 1939 Register has 27th October 1894;
5) Death certificate 23rd October 1894 (registered by her daughter).
-
My Grandfather's elder brother Edward William Wainwright was born on 16th Sept 1879 -- I have his birth certificate to prove this.
He was not baptised as a baby, but as a teenager in May 1896. Here his birthdate is given as 23rd Sept 1880 -- a year and a week later!
This confusion of birthdates continued into later life. In 1911, when he would be in his early 30s, he travels from Germany into Belgium. On his entry documents, he originally gives his birthdate as 23 Sept 1880, but this is crossed out and 16 Sept 1879 written in a different hand
Can anyone think of any reason for the use of two birthdates like this?
I have ruled out the death of a 1879 baby and ensuing re-use of names for a 1880 baby.
I am Baffled why the Birth Certificate you have Proves you say his Birth date.
It doesn't.
It Proves Only the Date the Mother "Said" to the Registrar was the Birth Date. Nothing More.
I have a Relative and the Birth Certificate states he was born 24 June 1894 Registered on the 42nd final time-limit for Registration
However the Priest Baptised him on 30 May 1894 and recorded it in the Consecutive Baptism Log Register
And noted in the New Column alongside that entry
Gave the Actual Date of Birth as 20 May 1894
And therefore Not as the Birth Certificate Proved.
At what age was your Relative told his Birth Date ? And by Who ?
When his Mother had him Baptised 16 years later
It is not surprising she couldn't remember the exact date assuming she could count.
In 1879/80 did it matter when your Birth Date was?
You were not going to get a Pension when you reached 65
And they probably didn't celebrate Birthdates and sent cards
In my Experience 1939 Register entries copied by the Enumerator from What was Said are not very reliable either.
-
Wonder if this also applies to someone born in 1964, much more recent? A family friend this is, he said he was born on the 8th Nov 1964, he was the son of Jamaican immigrants, born in Northern England. But he died of a rare lung illness in his 40s and the funeral service card said born 1st September 1964. His birth appears in the last quarter of 1964 in the GRO indexes though. I may never be 100% sure which was the correct birthdate.
-
Its not unusual, my second Wife said she was four years younger than she actually was.
She came clean after we had known each other a couple of months.