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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: munjoanron on Sunday 08 April 18 17:12 BST (UK)
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Another coat-of-arms in a church in Hampshire found in the window and also on the tomb of the remains of an unidentified person in the Chancel of the church which was the preceptory of a cell of Knights Hospitaller. The arms are thought to be that of VIP of the Knights who died in the late 15th century, possibly William Tournay, but I can find no sources which indicate that these arms relate to that name. Has anybody come across it before? The window and tomb also contain a very stylised "T" which would also support the Tournay theory.
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Which parish church is this please?
Nell
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I can`t make out what the thee things on the bar are.
I think as it goes down to the left it might be a bar sinister sometimes meaning illegitimacy.
The three things look a bit like something that goes over the head and sits on the shoulders,
but not part of armour.
Someone has already asked which church,perhaps the dedication would give a clue.
Viktoria.
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A few years ago, I was trying to identify this exact coat of arms. Alas, I have not been able to track down the specifics of what we found, but the upshot is that no one has been able to identify the owner of this coat of arms.
(For those wondering what they could be, the charges on the bend are variously blazoned as chapes, crampets, or boterolls. They are the protective metal pieces at the bottom of a sword scabbard.)
If I can track down the earlier research, I will post the results here.
David
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I can`t make out what the thee things on the bar are.
I think as it goes down to the left it might be a bar sinister sometimes meaning illegitimacy.
They are chapes, sometimes blazoned as crampets or boterolls. They are the metal protective pieces at the end of a sword scabbard.
In English blazon, there is no such thing as a "bar sinister." A bar is a diminutive of the fess, a horizontal stripe. In French blazon, a "barre" is what is blazoned in English a "bend," which is what appears on the shield here. A "bend sinister" has occasionally been used as a mark of illegitimacy, but it is far from the case that every bend sinister does so. But the bend on this shield is simply the default bend, running from dexter chief to sinister base. A bend sinister would run from sinister chief to dexter base.
David
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I thought a fess was a horizontal band(,Children`s Encyclopedia heraldry pages,years and years ago).
So whilst I agree after your explanation that "bar sinister" is incorrect,it was often used to refer to illegitimacy in a family,in conversation.
Not correct in heraldry but a well known phrase.
However I admire your depth of knowledge on the subject,which is very complicated.
Let`s hope the mystery will be solved.
Viktoria.
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David Appleton - hi - it is me that raised the query directly a year ago! I thought I would try a wider forum to see if anyone else recognised it.
In response to the other queries - the church is St John the Baptist of North Baddesley. It was the church within the manor of North Baddesley which was held by the Knights Hospitallers between the 11 century and the reformation. William Tournay was preceptor there in the 1450's but became the Prior of England in 1472 after the execution of the previous Prior, John Langstrother, following the Battle of Tewkesbury. The knights were on the losing side as they were trying to prevent King Edward from appointing his Neville brother-in-law as the Prior. Tournay got pardoned for his involvement and ended up as Prior but died shortly after. He is supposed to be buried at the Knights Hospitaller chapel in London but there is a suspicion that maybe part of his body was buried in the North Baddesley church. George Gilbert Scott (Victorian architect) has opined that the tomb is late 14th century and others believe that the tomb (which bears the Maltese cross carved into the tomb sides) must be of somebody important connected to the Preceptory but there are no other clues apart from the stylised T carved on the tomb and in the window.
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The best description I have of the shield is as follows:
"party per fess argent and gules on a bend or three chapes"
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Just curious, but have you read
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lvm/
especially page 7 of 10
Malky
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Hi Flattybasher. I was aware of the Felicity Beard research - we have even been in touch about her research. She is tentatively in agreement with me that the tomb may be that of William Tournay. However, I had not read her paper before although I was aware of it. But your reply has helped me to solve another puzzle. I had made another post on this site about another coat of arms in the church roof which I was trying to identify. I finally found it yesterday from an old book on Church Heraldry printed in 1911. It is the coat of arms of the "All Saints". I could not work out why there was coat of arms for the All Saints in a church dedicated to St John the Baptist. Felicity's paper answers the question as it says that the church was rededicated to St John when the brothers appropriated it on 17 July 1304 and they were responsible for the church repairs. So thank you again for drawing my attention to it.