RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ward3736 on Sunday 07 August 05 08:53 BST (UK)
-
Johnson, Joseph Charles and/or Ruth Grace (nee Fisher).
Residence; 32 Thornbury Road Chapham Park SW London as at
1896.
Occupation; Publisher's Clerk. (Joseph Charles)
They are my grandparents on my mother's side.
They had four (4) children; Edith, Elsie, Joseph & Ivy(my mother). My mother's birth certificate registered BA 490897 at Hampstead County of London and was born August 3, 1896 at 112 Adelaide Road London.
According to my mother (deceased), they died in a London theatre fire around 1898-1900. She was only 2 years old at the time and was taken and raised by her god parents (Llewelyn of South Wales - at their beach house in Caswell Bay).
I would like to find out more about my grand parents, so that I may search further back into my ancestory and perhaps discover who they are.
-
Hi Ward3736, and Welcome to Rootschat :)
What an interesting story, there will probably be records in London newspapers of the fire, in the mean time, as you posted in 1881 Census lookup requests I thought you might like to know that this is available, free, on-line at
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=search_all1.asp&clear_form=true
Good luck ;D
Wendi
-
Thanks for the link Wendi. Will carry-on.
-
Hello, Ward3736,
This is a surorise,
1901 census
RG13/714 folio 132
Gravesend & Milton Union workhouse.
John Charles Johnson Mar. age 45 clerk in Shipping House
born Hackney, London
John Herbert son age 7 b, Islington
Edith May dau age 5 b ditto
Ivy dau age 3 b South Hampstead
Gladys dau age 1 b Lewisham
Elsie Mary dau age 1 mth. b Gravesend.
The only birth I checked was Elsie Mary as she was only imth old, I thought it was the easiest.
Born mar ¼ 1901 Gravesend 2a 604
I could not find anything yet for Ruth, the obvious guess would be that she died when Elsie was born but I cannot find a death for her at that time.
I wonder if your mother's memory was a little adrift re the Theatre fire, dates can become very confused in memory.
If you obtained Elsie Mary's birth certificate this would be a great help, this can be done online at
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/index.asp#0
good luck
Meliora
-
hello, Ward3736,
I have found the birth entries for the Johnson children
Joseph Herbert
Mar ¼ 1893 Holborn 1v 735
Edith May
June ¼ 1984 St.Giles 1b 594
Ivy Adelaide you already know details
Sept. ¼ 1896 Hampstead 1a 663
Gladys Caroline F.
Mar ¼ 1900 Lewisham 1d 1267
Elsie Mary
Mar ¼ 1901 Gravesend 2a 604
Meliora
-
Still in the same workhouse in 1901, there is also:
Grace Johnson, married, 29, wife of Joseph, b. Farnham Surrey
just 2 lines above the rest of the family, which would explain the fact that George is down as married. Perhaps the fire took place later?
Tanja :)
-
Wow ... Thankyou so much for your help everyone. It's beyond my expectations and opens new idea's to persue. I'm gratefull.
My mother kept a lot of information private and so did my father who is worse to try and trace. Anyway, I do know that my mother (Ivy Adelaide Johnson) was raised by the Llewelyns of South Wales at their Caswell Bay Beachhouse near Swansea and was christened at a local church (St. Peters) around 1906. I have some post cards that were sent to her from Wales back in early 1900's.
Again, your information will help tremendously and opens up some new possibilities.
Thanks,
Roy
-
Unfortunately, I can't find a matching Grace or Ruth Grace in either 1881 or 1891 - at least not born in Farnham, anyway. You don't have Joseph and Grace's marriage certificate, do you?
Tanja :)
-
No ... The only certificate I have is my mother's birth certificate and I believe her baptismal certificate (1906) south wales. Thats it.
I could post her birth and baptismal + a family picture taken back around 1898/99 but I can't figure out how to insert them into this thread.
Thanks
-
That's too bad. Have you searched for a possible marriage already? I don't know if you are aware of FreeBMD:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
where you can search for births, marriages and deaths. Unfortunately, it's not complete yet. (I had a quick look and couldn't find a match, but you may be luckier).
The marriage certificate would tell her father's name. From there on we could do a search in previous census years.
Did you find a likely candidate for Joseph in 1881? If the 1901 census entry is correct, he was quite older than Ruth Grace. He may have been married before...
Tanja :)
-
Thanks Tanja. Tried a couple of shots on BMD but no luck yet, will keep trying. Seems like a good site to use.
-
Johnson family photo taken about 1898/99.
Father: Joseph Charles Johnson
Mother: Ruth Grace Fisher
Child 1: Ivy Adelaide Johnson (in father's arms)
Child 2: Edith Johnson
Child 3: Joseph Herbert Johnson
Child 4: Gladys Johnson
Child 5: Elsie Johnson (not shown)
(http://doinkadoink.com/images/johnson family.jpg)
-
(http://ns2.affordable-it.com/images/johnson family.jpg)
-
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/johnson family.jpg)
-
hello, Rov,
I have found what I think is the birth registration for
Ruth Fisher
Dec ¼ 1870 Alton (Hants) 2c 152
Alton,Hants is not far from the border with Surrey. Farnham, Surrey, is also not far from the border. Also, the list of adjacent districts in the registration districts list show Farnham as adjacent to Alton.
This entry was the only one in the right area, there were other entries for Ruth Fisher but in the Midlands or the North. There was no entry for a Grace that fitted.
Hope this helps
Meliora
-
If Meliora's find is yours, then there's this match in 1871/1881:
1871
RG10/1227
Folio 20 p. 5
Bentley, Hampshire
(Registration District Alton)
Bull Farm
William Fisher, head, 28, Ag Lab, b. Hants Bentley
Harriett, wife, 28, b. Hants Kingsley
Rose A, dau, 4, b. London Kensington
Charlotte L, dau, 2, b. Hants Bentley
Ruth, dau, 5ms, b. Hants Bentley
(and 2 household above, another Fisher: Thomas age 25 b. Bentley & family)
1881
RG11/1247
Folio 64 p. 15
Binsted, Hampshire (RD Alton)
Suggest you keep these in mind - they may be useful later.
Tanja
:)
-
and in 1891, the same William seems to be in ... Farnham, Surrey!
RG12/569
Folio 57 p. 25
Farnham Weyborne, Surrey
Farnham Lane
William Fisher, head, 49, Cowman doestic servant Ag Lab, b. Hants Bentley
Harriett, wife, 48, b. Kingsley
Herbert, son, 17, Ag Lab, b. Derbyshire Cresswell
Phoebe, dau, 12, scholar, b. Hants Bentley
Frederick, son, 10, scholar, b. Hants Bentley
Tanja :)
-
and the 1881 too,
RG11/1247 fol 64 page 15
Binstead, Hants
William age 39
Harret age 38
Roseann age 14
Lilly age 12
Ruth age 10
Herbert age 8
Alice age 6
Phoebe age 1
Meliora
-
Hello, Royn &Tati,
I have been looking at the post where Roy says he has what he thinks is the baptismal certificate for Ivy Adelaide Johnson in South Wales 1906.
Given this it meant that either or both of her parents could have died pre 1906. With this in mind I looked at the death entries for both Joseph & Ruth/Grace June ¼ 1901 to Dec ¼ 1906 & found this >>>>
Joseph Johnson
Dec ¼ 1904 GRAVESEND
-
sorry, pressed the wrong button
to continue
Joseph Johnson
Dec ¼ 1904 GRAVESEND 2a 374 age 48
Knowing that Joseph was in Gravesend workhouse April 1901 aged 45, I think it is safe to say this the Joseph you are looking for.
There was no sign of a death for Ruth/Grace, the same date or at anytime from 1901 to 1906. She would have been only 34 years old in 1906 so it would be anybody's guess when she died.
I have also not found any marriage for them either which makes me think they may never have married.
I have run out of ideas at the moment, what about you Tati ? any flash of inspiration would be welcome.
Meliora
-
??? I'd love to have an idea, but I just don't. If you look at this thread, Meliora, you'll find out it was you who had bright ideas, not me.
Tracing Johnsons doesn't seem the easiest thing to do, does it?
Would it have been possible for Grace/Ruth to pretend being married on Ivy's birth certificate if she wasn't? Was does the cert say exactly, Ward?
I do think getting Joseph's death cert would be highly interesting, anyway, to check the fire theory.
Tanja
-
Hi, Tanja,
The info shown on any cert is only what is told to the
Registrar by the person registering the event. How is the Registrar to know whether the informant is lying thro' their teeth.
I have 2 instances in 2 different lines in my own research.
1) A couple together on the 1851 census shown with the same surname, both very early 20s, no children so presumed to be newly married. They were tracked thro' all the censuses together with children added as the years went by, 12 in all. BUT no marriage was ever found for them until.....wait for it.... 1894 !!!! I nearly fell off my chair when I found that one. I think perhaps the only reason they married then was that the "husband" had his own business & felt that his"wife" should be able to claim any estate on his death, he died within 3 years of the marriage.
2) my maternal grgrandparents had their first child, my grandpa, in 1869 & the last of nine children in 1887 but no marriage has ever been found.
In both of these cases the mother on the children's birth certs always stated the mother with the father's surname with formally her own maiden name In both cases the "husband" died first & the deaths were reg'd by the "wife " with the father's surname. I have come to regard these as "common law" marriages & given up trying to find something that is not there. To compound it all my own mother used to call her "Grandma" as Granny " husband's surname."
I cannot understand why we can find no census info for Joseph Johnson. I have found one that might fit in 1861 when Joseph would have been 4 ? years if born in 1856.
HO107/247 fol 38 page 24
8, Mansfield St., Kingslnd Rd, Hagerstone W, Shoredtich
Charles R Johnson ahe 50 Messenger b Essex Romford
Sarah wife age 43 b Middsx Blackwall
Mary Ann day age 20 Fancy Brush maker b London
Emma dau age 18 b ditto
Charles son age 16 b ditto
Sarah dau age ? b ditto
Joseph son age 4 b ditto.
I am now trying to track this family in the 1871. Watch this space.
Meliora
-
Hello, Roy & Tanja.
What about this>>
1891 census
RG12/219 folio 208 page 21
11, Featherstone Buildings, St. Andrew Holborn
Joseph C. Johnson age 38 Lawyer's clerk b Hackney
Amy S. wife age 31 b St. Giles
Charles J. 10 b ditto
Could this be Joseph with a 1st wife ? Tho' as yet I haven't found a death for Amy.
Meliora
-
8) I was just about to post this one too - seems the best match in 1891, anyway. The fact he's a clerk, too, looks quite good.
Tanja :)
-
Ivy's birth certificate
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/ivy birth.jpg)
-
Ivy's baptism certificate.
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/ivy baptism.jpg)
-
I need to apologize to you people because I think I read the baptism certificate wrong. Above is a copy. It reads:
Baptized: July 26th, 1903 at Parish Church Newton next to Gravesend.
Confirmed: April 7th, 1909 at Parish Church Oystermouth.
First Communion: Ascension day 1909, May 20th at St. Peter's Church Newton.
Signature is: ? S. Williams (Vicar)
-
This seems to be in 1871 the family Meliora found in 1861:
RG10/466
Folio 14 p. 21 & 22
St Leonard Shoreditch, London
80 Mansfield Street
Charles R Johnson, head, wid, 60, Brewer's collector, b. Essex Purfleet
Emma, dau, unm, 26, b. Mddx Shoreditch
Sarah, dau, 15, b. do.
Joseph, son, 13, b. do.
Mary Ann Bignell, lodger, wid, 37 (57?), Dressmaker, b. Southampton
Tanja :)
-
The follow up census to the Joseph Johnson family in the 1861 & 71 censuses
1881 census
Rg11/404 folio 66 page 18
31, Mansfiels St Middsx
William JOHNSTON age 43, Machne fitter b Haggerstone
Elizabeth wife age 41 b London
Elizabeth dau 15, Box Maker b ditto
William son age 11 b ditto
Joseph, Unm brother age 24 Machine minder (print) b ditto
Is this our Joseph ? bearing in mind the one in the 1891 census with Amy ?
Meliora
-
I really wonder how we are going to get further here. You don't have old postcards sent to Ivy by her grandparents by any chance, do you ;)
I searched and searched again but just can't find a marriage...
-
Tati:
Nothing to Ivy from her grandparents. Also, I have nothing from her parents. I do have a picture of a house at Caswell Bay Wales where she writes a note on the back that says;
This is the house I was raised in.
The house is a beach house owned by the Llewelyns of Penlagaernear (mispelled) near Swansea. I will post the picture.
According to my mother (Ivy), the Llewelyns were her god parents who took her in after the death my grandparents Joseph and Ruth Johnson.
-
Ivy's house she was raised in ...
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/Beach House.jpg)
-
Perhaps you need to try and establish the link to the Llewelyns. What were their first names/occupation etc. Perhaps they were related. You say they were from Penllergear - thats not very close to Caswell Bay - do you mean thats where they originated?
Possible death - Strood is near Gravesend
Deaths Jun 1903
Johnson Grace 32 Strood 2a 321
ec
-
ec - Penllergare was the main house for John D. Llewelyn. They also owned the beach house at Caswell Bay near Swansea plus other stuff I would imagine. My mother's baptismal certificate indicates she attended church at Newton, and/or Oystermouth, or Newton near Gravesend. I talked to someone from the museum in Swansea who knew nothing about my mother staying in the house at Caswell Bay. She also said there was no references to my mother in their collection of Llewelyn papers etc. and did not know that anyone lived at the beach house but it could be a possibility. I sent them the picture of the house and they confirmed that it was the Llewelyn beach house. They also stated that as far as they know, I was the only one that had a picture of the beach house taken during the turn of the century. Any thats all I know about Wales so far.
Regards
Roy
-
Hi Roy
I think the baptism was actually MILTON near Gravesend, not NEWTON. Is that right?
I suppose what I am getting at is that there must be a link between the Johnsons and the Llewelyns (of which there are many (John) in the 1901 census, both in and out of Wales). On the face of it, it appears unlikely - the Johnsons ended up in the Workhouse in Gravesend and the Llewelyns owned, by the sound of it, at least two, large houses. Geographically they are virtually as far apart E-W as you can get. It sounds like there is some material on these people in the Swansea records - perhaps someone could look up for you? You should at least be able to find out his wifes name
Did the other children go with Ivy, or elsewhere.
ec
-
ec - Interestingly enough, my mother (Ivy) was taken in by her god parents (Llewelyns) and the others - according to my mother - , were sent to an orphanage.
When the others became 16 years old they were apparently released from the orphanage to fend for themselves. Joseph Herbert Johnson immigrated to Toronto Canada and later sent for my mother when she became sixteen. I have the Canadian and US history down pat (Joe immigrated to Los Angeles and worked for Warner Brothers Movie Co. as a cook etc.) My mother married my dad (he was a professional musician who played in Toronto and New York City, joined the army during 1st world war 1916-1919 etc. etc. ) So the story goes.
We are definitely an interesting bunch. If I can I will write a small biography about our lives and history if I can make some sense out of the research.
Thanks,
Roy
-
Ref: Baptism info. no the card definitely says Newton near Gravesend however, it was handwritten by the Vicar (Williams) so it would be subject to human error and Milton would seem more logical.
I should check the Swansea Anglican Church records (or whatever the records would be held) and perhaps it would help to clarify things.
-
Hi
It appears John Talbot Dillwyn Lllewelyn (1836 -1927)was the Llewelyn who lived/owned Penllergaer at the time concerned (as I am sure you know). On the face of it there appears to be no apparent link with the Johnsons, but obviously this is not impossible. Given that he was rather wealthy, it seems strange that he should take only one of the children, leaving the pthers in the childrens home. 2 possibilities occur to me, and I am sure there are others.
1) John TD Llewelyn or one of his children (more likely) had some sort blood link to Ivy
2) given that she did not live at Penllergaer with the family, perhaps her godparents were actually employees of the Llewelyns - say the caretaker of the beach house (known as Caswell Cottage). This would also tie in with there being no mention of Ivy in the estate records.
I would try and pursue the confirmation/communion records and also try and find out what the local school was and what records exist. I think you also need to get the death certs for the Johnsons, and if you know the childrens home try and see what records exist for that.
ec
-
Hi,
Was Caswell cottage maybe run as some sort of girls home or school? I just found the 1901 census entry and it reads:
RG13/5083 f87 p27
Caswell Cottage
G H Dilwyn Llewellyn b.1862 female bn.Coln St Aldwyn, Gloucestershire, England Head Oystermouth Glamorgan
occupation Matron of home
Beatrice M Daniel b. 1868 bn Brockley, London, England Mext? Oystermouth Glamorgan under matron
Then some servants..
Then some young girls aged 8-13 listed mostly as boarders occ.scholar...one is a visitor. (sorry for not listing them I'm just a bit busy today)
The girls seem to come from all over and not to have any obvious relationsip with the Llewelyns.
Hope this is some help,
Emily
The GH Dilwyn Llewllyn seems to be Gwendoline, a daughter of John Talbot Dilwyn Llewelyn.
-
Ivy's schoolhouse
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/ivy009a.jpg)
Notation on back written by G. Llewelyn
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/ivy009b.jpg)
-
Thanks folks. A picture of my mother's life before she came to Canada is beginning to come together. Its obvious I need to explore the Llewelyn/Wales connections more thoroughly and discover the real reasons why she was raised at Caswell Cottage. At present, my guess is that the Llewelyns were charitable and at one point they probably used Caswell Cottage to take in, educate and raise children who were inmates at workhouses nearby. When Joseph and/or Grace died (probably in the workhouse) my mother was taken by Gwendolyn Llewelyn to Caswell Cottage as my grand parents saw a better life for her there. Again, why the other children didn't get taken by Gwendolyn is a mystery because it would be logical to not break up the family. Maybe Gwendolyn became my mother's god parent beside it might have been a requirement by law in those days. Anyways ...
Groovy stuff,
It;s comining together
Thanks
Roy
-
I forgot to mention that there is a trust setup by the Llewelyns called The Penllergare Trust. They have a website at:
http://www.penllergare.org
This gives some historical information about the Llewelyns. However, there is no mention of Caswell Cottage or their activities beyond JDTL's interest in the main estate, photography, and the gardens etc. Some of the pictures show childrens activities in the gardens etc.
-
Contact details for the Director of the Trust, and holder of various archive material documents wills and estate papers on this page
http://www.walesontheweb.org/cayw/collections/en/699721
enquires accepted by email.
ec
-
Thanks ec. I will contact them.
-
Hi there - I have just come across your posts as I am searching the history of my great great Grandmother - Daisy Valentine Talbot. She was taken in by the Llewelyns of Caswell Cottage and was there in 1911 as a second housemaid (according to the 1911 census). She had a friend we know called Ivy whilst she was there and then called her Daughter Ivy!
Her past also was very secretive and there are many unanswered questions. She was born in London in 1880 and her father was a coachman. We have no idea why or how she ended up at Caswell Cottage.
Hope you can get in touch it seems as though Ivy and Daisy were there together!
Andy
-
Hi,
I just found this newspaper article put up on Ancestry, showing Ivy and Elsie, when they were reunited. Not sure if you've seen it, but hope it helps.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/15960945/person/327299563/media/d43db9f5-96a9-41f5-9fe6-f3b76c93332b?_phsrc=sqv4519&_phstart=successSource
We are researching Daisy Valentine Talbot, who was also living in Caswell House where Ivy was living. Daisy (born 1888 in London), was also orphaned (we believe) and was brought to Swansea where she was raised by Gwendoline Harriet Dillwyn Llewelyn at Caswell House. Daisy may well have known Ivy, and coincidentally went on to name her own daughter Ivy.
-
Hi all, I am researching my Great Grandmother, Rita Hilda Smith, who was also at Caswell Cottage on the 1911 Census as an Inmate, but she worked as a Monitor in the local school. I know she was Confirmed at All Saints Oystermouth in March 1910, and took First Communion a few days later at St. Peter's, Newton. She was born in Braintree, Essex, in 1895 and her parents both died in 1901. I too can not figure out how she ended up at Caswell Cottage - possibly living with the other people mentioned here!
-
Spent some more time digging this evening, and I found the following obituary, which says Caswell House was an orphanage:
“DAUGHTER OF SQUIRE OF PENLLERGAER DEATH OF MISS DILLWYN LLEWELYN of the late Sir DAUGHTER Lady Llewelyn, and for many years an active figure in several Swansea charities, Miss a Gwendoline Harriet Dillwyn-Llewelyn died at Llandrindod Wells. She had been unwell for a short period. She was aged 80. Miss Dillwyn-Llewelyn had lived for the past two years at Grove Lodge, Llandrindod Wells. Formerly she resided in Bryn-road, Swansea.
Her passing means the loss to many Swansea charitable organisations of a true friend, whose life had been devoted to good deeds. Miss Dillwyn-Llewelyn was a sister of Sir Charles L. D. Venables Llewelyn Lord Lieutenant of Radnorshire. CASWELL ORPHANAGE.
Fore a death number of her of years mother prior in 10 1917, Miss Dillwyn-Llewelyn conducted an orphanage at Caswell Bay, and on the death of her mother she returned to Penllergaer until her father's death in 1927, after which she resided at No. 10, Bryn-road Swansea, until about two years ago, when she removed to Llandrindod Wells. Miss Dillwyn Llewelyn was very great friend of Miss Frances Havergall, the famous hymn writer, who died while on a visit Miss, Llewelyn at Caswell Bay. A tablet subscribed for by friends of the hymn writer recording the fact is affixed to the wall the house on the Caswell Road.
AID FOR SICK.
Work for the sick and suffering occupied much of Miss Llewelyn's time. She was for many years chairman the South Wales Nursing Institute. Brunswick-place, and she maintained the of close interest Swansea in Hospital which parents "her had had before her. For years she was an active member of the Hospital Samaritan Committee. and took a particular interest in I the work of the Eye Hospital Many organisations, such as the Y.M.C.A..
Y.W.C.A., and charitable institutions had her interest. Her own needs were simple and her charitable gifts and subscriptions were She Was a devoted Church. woman, and attended at St. Gabriel's Church before leaving Swansea. At Penllergaer she was, or course, interested in the village church of St. David's, which built by her grandfather which her father, opening Sir John, service was of present as infant. In 1937, to mark the centenary, there was an extension to the church and Miss Dillwyn Llewelyn was one of principal subscribers to the extension fund. SCHOOL PRESENTATION ted Llangyfelach School Some years ago she present the gold key given to her father on occasion of the opening of the school, and also with a painting, by Evan Walters showing Llangyfelach Church and the surrounding fields on the hill looking up from Bryntywod. The arrangements for the funeral are in the hands of Messrs. D.”
Herald of Wales - Saturday, 8 January 1944 https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/965815818/