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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: timmis1 on Friday 30 March 18 23:07 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find a baptism/birth registration for Johnathan Smith
He married Emma Roberts (born abt 1842 in Thurstaston Cheshire) on 15th June 1862 at Our Lady & St Nicholas & St Anne Liverpool
His father`s name is given as Richard Smith a Labourer
I have been unable to find a baptism on free reg nor a birth registration however today on the free trial of ancestry I did come across a record for a Johnathan Smith born Wallasey Cheshire 1840
Is anyone able to shed any light on this record of 1840?
I have asked other questions about this person in 2016
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You have posted on the Lancashire board but say the baptism was Cheshire?
No info given as to what birthplace is shown on census entries for him or what birthyear
Your 2016 thread ran to 5 pages so to avoid any duplication of efforts I will ask the moderator to merge this post with the 2016 one
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744300.0
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however today on the free trial of ancestry I did come across a record for a Johnathan Smith born Wallasey Cheshire 1840
Is anyone able to shed any light on this record of 1840?
You don't indicate what sort of record this was, what 'collection' does it appear in
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6 September 1840 - St Hilary, Wallasey
Johnathan, son of Samuel (Labourer) and Mary Smith of Poulton
(It's a disgusting image - via FindMyPast :-X )
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There is a baptism record at Woodchurch 18 July 1841
Jonathan Smith
Parents Richard and Ann
Richard a Labourer
Abode Barnston.
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Another baptism at Woodchurch
John Smith 29 March 1840
Parents Richard and Ann
Richard a Labourer
Abode Oxton.
Skimming through your previous post there is a post from Heywood [reply 3 ]
Giving the 1851 and 1861 census.
So could these two baptisms tie in with those records with Jonathan and John being different people?
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Thank you very much everyone who has responded so far, Rolnora`s baptism information would appear to be spot on in my opinion, as there are a couple of things that tie it in with the information I already have.
1 The father`s name is Richard as given on the marriage details to Emma Roberts
2 The fathers occupation is labourer as in Johnathan`s marriage details
2 The baptism in Woodchurch is in the area of Birkinhead, Emma his wife was born in Thurstaston
I presume the first Johnathan Smith (found by Rolnora) that was baptised however died at some point and hence Richard & Ann called there next son Johnathan also.
I have looked for the surviving Johnathan in the 1851 census and found him living at what looks like No2 Halls Court Oxton Cheshire with
Richard Smith 34
Ann Smith 37
James Smith 12
William Smith 8
George Smith 6
Richard Smith 4
I have also found him in the 1861 census in Oxton again with
Richard Smith 44
Ann Smith 46
Richard Smith 15
Thomas Smith 7
It is interesting that he has a sibling called William as Johnathan has a grandson called William born around 1896 in Oldham to his daughter Emma Smith, so it is starting me to think that this is "our" Johnathan Smith
However I can`t find a plausible death date for him, as mentioned in my post of 2016 by 1871 his wife(Emma ne Roberts) is living in Bury, Lancashire with her daughter but not with him.
I do not know where he has gone.
Emma his wife eventually hooks up with a Michael Fanning and she is with him in the 1881 Census both of them moving to Oldham and Michael dieing there.
However I have never found a marriage record for these two(Michael Fanning & Emma) , it makes me wonder if Johnathan just deserted Emma, or Emma & Michael just didn`t marry for what ever reason even though their children used his name in subsequent census.
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One to consider
1861
Micklehurst
James Kinder Head 30 Farmer
Mary Kinder 28
John Kinder 5
Hartley Kinder 5/12
Mary Davis 20
Johnathan Smith Servant 40 born Barnston Cheshire Ag Labourer *
Jerimiah Willis 14
Richard Smith Servant 16 born Birkenhead Cowman
Henry Robinson 15
William Hayle 14
RG9/3086/
* Somebody called Puddington 40 has put a correction on one site to say that his age was 20 not 40
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Thanks Heatherjulie
Yes the John & Richard could be "the" brothers but Micklehurst seems to be near Mossely which is near Ashton Under Lyne, I think I will stick with the one where he is living in Oxton in 1861 I just need something to connect him to Emma Roberts born in Thurstaston.
However I only have Emma Roberts in Bury for the 1861 census living as a servant
The witness of the marriage where a Jane & William Hughes, I wonder if there is some connection between the families there, I have had a look at a few censuses and Jane doesn`t seem to be her sister but I don`t think Johnathan has any sisters, so I don`t know how these witnesses can help.
Now I have some good ideas as to where Johnathan was born I would like to be able to link him to Emma Roberts better and find out when he died should I start a new thread or keep this one open?
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Just found out that Johnathan Smith who I have been looking for in the 1871 census for the last 10 years was living with his mother, father and brothers Richard & Thomas & Cousin John Jones at Prices Lane Oxton, Cheshire!! instead of with his wife who was living in Bury with her daughter at the time of the 1871 census.
Haven`t been able to find him in the 1881 census yet if anyone has any ideas that would really be great.
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Just another request to add to the one above about the 1881 census.
I was wondering if any light could be shed on Johnathan Smith & Emma Roberts if it could be found out who was living at the properties that they were registered at for the 1862 marriage ie fro Johnathan Smith Queen St & for Emma ?mond St sadly I do not have the numbers of these streets, as it wasn`t that long since the 1861 census.
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Micklehurst is the name of the building that they are living in, not the place near Mossley. They are in the town of Bashall Eaves, Yorkshire.
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Hi Heather Julie
Thanks for clarifying, I think it is more and more likely to be the Johnathan Smith born in Oxton Cheshire, especially as his father is called Richard and is a labourer as per Johnathan`s marriage details to Emma Roberts. It was a clever search that you did though.
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Hi,
There is a death showing on Free BMD for a John Smith in Sept Qtr 1876, age 37, district Birkenhead, (reference 8a/304).
With such a common name it is difficult to be sure if this is your man or not but the age could fit in if he was possibly born in 1839 and christened early 1840?
Alan
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Hi Alan
That`s great work. I apparently have two Johnathan Smiths to go at born of Richard & Ann Smith of Oxton Cheshire one baptised July 1841 and the other March 1840, so I think the John`s deth would fit with the latter Johnathan Smith.
Also Johnathan Smith & Emma Roberts (his wife 1862) their daughter (born 1869) seems to persist in calling herself Smith whereas her half brothers & sisters (born after the death of Johnathan Smith) call themselves Fanning which makes me think possibly he was her daddy but he wasn`t around to father anymore children which would fit in with him dying in 1876, I`m all for going for this one, I think it may be worth getting the death cert unless someone can access this type of record and see who reported his death to see if it was Emma (who was in Birenhead for the 1881 census) or someone who wouldn`t appear to have a link with Johnathan in which case he may sadly not be "my" Johnathan.
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Hi,
It might be as well to check the earlier 1871 censuses to see if there is any other John Smith in the Birkenhead area of a similar age - if not then it may possibly be your man. If there is another "John Smith" family you could follow them through later censuses to see if that John was alive after 1881 etc.
Probably its worth doing a little bit more research before buying the death certificate.
Alan
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Hi,
Found another John Smith with wife Hannah and children Albert and Nathaniel in the area in 1871. However they still seem to be together in 1881 with additional children, having moved back to Lancashire from Birkenhead.
Could the possibility that the 1876 death is your man be a step nearer?
Alan
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Hi Al
As Johnathan marries Emma Roberts in 1862 the second John you found wouldn`t really fit, I am still placing my bets on the John Smith you found who died in 1876, like I said there seems to be some resources whereby you can find out who reported the death, sadly I am not a member of Ancestry.com or any other such sight now, but if I could get that sort of information I would have thought (especially if it is Emma (his wife) or a family member who reports his death, it would go part of the way in confirming that it is "my" Johnathan.
The only second thoughts I have is if he was in Oxton for all the censuses why wasn`t he there for his death?
Like I said if I don`t get any luck from this site I may order the death certificate.
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Hi,
Oxton is in the Birkenhead Registration District.
The fact that the other John Smith was alive in 1881 strengthens the possibility that the 1876 death may be yours.
I am a member of Ancestry, however I think the only way you will get a definitive answer to this question by obtaining the death certificate.
Alan
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Hi Alan
I agree and I have printed off the application for the death certificate and will send it off Monday.
I have found this side of my family particularly hard to investigate but the last week or two on the chats forum and given more answers than I could have anticipated, I`ll probably start to look farther back along the Smith line, I know that Johnathan`s parents where Richard & Ann who I think married in the Wirral 1837, and I think Richard`s parents were John & Jane however I have not been able to find when or where this pair married.
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A thought - instead of paying £9.25 for a paper copy of the death certificate, why don't you do the on-line request and get a .pdf file of the entry for £6.00. You will have to register and pay by card.
http://gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/index.asp
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Hi,
You may get some joy in tracing the Smith family back if you can access familysearch.org - it is a free site - you just have to register.
John and Jane Smith appear to have had several children (including Richard born c 1816) in Bidston Wirral (showing as Bidstone)
One of them William (born 1820) has a tree on there which if correct takes the male Smith line back to a Henry Smith (c1698)
I'll leave you to investigate!!
Alan
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Hi Alan
That`s fantastic, I am registered on the website now, I have found William Smith, however I can`t work out how to get his tree up.
Any pointers?
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Hi Alan
and everyone who has helped.
I have worked out how to use the family tree in Family Search & I have got back to Henry Smith 1668, I am more than pleased with this as the Smiths have foxed me for the last 10 years and as a result I pursued other parts of the family, but I am well and truly chuffed with the recent progress on the Smiths, Thanks
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Hi,
Good luck - I hope the death certificate is the right one to complete the picture. If not its back to the drawing board!
For your own peace of mind, check out the details found on Family Search yourself and if you have any questions you can always contact the tree owner and/or ask for help from Rootschat - there are always people here willing to help if at all possible.
Alan
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Hi Alan
Thanks for your help and with everyone else`s help I have got back 6 generations, which obviously I am very pleased with.