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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: weddieD1948 on Monday 26 March 18 11:48 BST (UK)
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My father severed for a short while after the first World War on a minesweeper , the reason for his discharge is not clear to us , can anybody help. His service was very short and one family story is the his ship hit a mine whilst clearing and he spent 7 to 9 hours in the water, I can find no evidence for this and HMS Pangbourne actually sank in the 2nd World War.
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Shore on
Dunoon
Was he picked up by the "Dunoon" ?
???
Dawn M
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HMS Dunoon not completed until after the war and sunk WW2 1940.
Look at the date of attestation May 1919 - the war was over and they were releasing the men in 1919. Is it as simple as that? Reservists would do basic training.
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I think the last letter of the D word is a superscript n with an underline, indicating a contraction.
It may be: Dunstn
While it could mean Dunst(a)n, I would expect it's a somewhat longer word than that.
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I think it's an abbreviation-demobilisation.
Just looking at the records surrounding his on FMPast they all have similar notations.
Maureen
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Possibly "shore on Demob(ilizatio)n"?
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I think it's an abbreviation-demobilisation.
Just looking at the records surrounding his on FMPast they all have similar notations.
That thought also occurred to me, Maureen. My reservation is that the spacing of the vertical strokes here is such a poor match to the letters: e-m-o-b
Do the other records look more plausible?
ADDED:
Above comment is particularly in relation to the letters e-m. The o-b looks alright.
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I think it's an abbreviation-demobilisation.
Just looking at the records surrounding his on FMPast they all have similar notations.
That thought also occurred to me, Maureen. My reservation is that the spacing of the vertical strokes here is such a poor match to the letters: e-m-o-b
Do the other records look more plausible?
ADDED:
Above comment is particularly in relation to the letters e-m. The o-b looks alright.
Well.some records have "demobilised" written out...and some have "Demob". :-\
Maureen
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Thanks Maureen. Do they have the Shore on/in part?
If they do then I would think you are probably right, and it's just tired and not very careful writing.
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That's the problem. The few that say "demobilised" don't have the "shore' but some of the "Demob" ones do.
Maureen
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Thanks Maureen.
They may not have all been written by the same person.
demobilized is a verb, so wouldn't fit with Shore on/in.
If some of the Demob ones do, then that's probably as near to certainty as we're likely to get.
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These snippets are taken from just before, and just after, the one in question. They are dated 8 May 1919 and 13 May 1919, with the exception of the one taken late June, which reads "Shore from MCS." I only included it as it was a change from "in/on" to "from".
I hope it will help!
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They do help greatly, thank you bbart.
Looking particularly at the top pair, I think we can be confident that Maureen and Sc00p's readings are correct.
It looks like it's in rather than on, demobn.
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Some say Shore on and some say Shore In ??
And it's clearly demob n meaning demobilisation, as Maureen.
Shore on demobilisation makes sense, doesn't it! Though why they have to specify that is interesting - they would hardly go to another ship if demob'd, would they ???
Dawn M
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Bit late to the party!
"Shore" was the standard term for a normal discharge from the service. It sometimes has a qualifying addition as the example "Shore from MCS" - in English "discharged from Mine Clearance Service". So although all seamen would ended up on shore when they were demobbed, the term here is one of a number of types of notations that could be found in the discharge column including Services No Longer Required (SNLR) and "Run" (deserted).
MaxD
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Thank you so much, I had never considered that he only did his basic training and then demob ! I have no evidence really of what he did from the date on the service form through to 1938 when he met my mother and then they got married. He went out to australia under the governments scheme in 1926 and then another blank. Thanks again for all of your help. :)
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Sudden thought comes to mind, if he had have only completed basic training would he have been assigned to the HMS ( training name) and not to an actual ship i.e. HMS Pangbourne ?
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His record would suggest he did, as you said, in your first post, serve on HMS Pangbourne, a minesweeper. The Attentive II was the accounting base in Dover for small craft such as minesweepers so the first column is saying "he is on Pangbourne but his paperwork is being handled by Attentive II". He did serve 5 months and being already a seaman** of some sort before he joined up suggests to me that training would have been short. Like you, I find no record of her being struck by a mine, his discharge looks simply like the reductions now the war was over. http://www.the-weatherings.co.uk/pccship0470.htm.
MaxD
** His occupation before joining was OS - Ordinary seaman - prob Merchant Navy
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Thanks again, more to think about, he was born in 1902 and when starting this service was only 16 yrs and 8 months old, surely he could not have been in the merchant navy as young as that, I have just applied to Glasgow to obtain his Army service record that is another mystery , pictures in Army uniform (RASC ?) in England and India , but here again I have no documents or proof , just a few family stories. Thanks again.
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He was certainly a seaman of some sort. I did notice that the next man in the records also came from Chilvers Coton Nuneaton, was also an seaman, was of a similar age, joined on the same day, served on the same vessel and was discharged at about the same time. Has the ring of two lads on a ship - fishermen?? somewhere, volunteering together for the Mine Clearance service which started in February 1919.
MaxD
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Findmypast shows a man of the same name to have been in the Merchant marines, complete with his picture. Mother was Elizabeth, of 66 High St. Nuneaton. Birthdate of 09 Sept 1902.
There is one notation that looks like "Phidius 1-5-19", so perhaps that was the merchant ship he was on before he joined the minesweeper?
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Thanks again, B Bart, great info do you say that this Marine service was before 1919, so that would be in WW1 ? Just logged on to FindmyPast and I cannot seem to find anything any more help would be great .
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Hi Weddie,
I just put in his full name and year of birth at Findmypast, and in the results screen, there is an entry for British Merchant Seamen for him. For me, it was the 4th result down, but it may vary between users?
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Thanks again bbart, found that but now a bigger mystery , that picture does not look like any of the pictures we hold of my dad, I will continue to search for things , Thanks again
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I had thought we'd cracked it there for a moment - how does the location (Nuneaton?) add up for your father's origins? And married to Rose living 22 Glenfield Avenue Nuneaton in 1939 - same birth date as the RNVR man and the Merchant seaman. Son of Harry and Elizabeth Mary from Hinckley (1911).
MaxD
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Yes MaxD, all of that adds up and is info I hold, the picture we have is not him, we knew from family stories he had done a few trips round the globe , but as I say no proof. Have a look see what you think.
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I have looked at dozens of these cards before and after the one in question. All the photos of the men have either a typed service number right on the photo, or a handwritten service number on the photo.
The one for John William Burchnall, of Nuneaton, is the ONLY one I have found where the number has been altered.... take a look:
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Thanks again, more to think about, he was born in 1902 and when starting this service was only 16 yrs and 8 months old, surely he could not have been in the merchant navy as young as that,
Yes, It would be common before and during WW1 that 14 year olds legally served in the Mercantile Marine. Cannot give you any figures but the youngest person to die in any of the services as a result of enemy action in the Second World War was Galley Boy Reginald Earnshaw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Earnshaw
It is a fact that 500 plus boys under the age of 16 died whilst serving in the MN in WW2.
Usually they lied about their age, the legal age was 15 but most Masters turned a blind eye.
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Not something I would profess to be good at but the two photographs, even allowing for the passage of time, do not look to be the same. I wouldn't die in a ditch over it though.
In your post "the picture we have is not him" - did you mean that the picture you posted is not father or the 16 year old merchant seaman isn't?? If the seaman isn't, then his record has the wrong photo, stuff happens!
Phidias was a cargo vessel of the Holt line http://www.clydeships.co.uk/view.php?ref=13689 Possible scenario is him serving on Phidias and volunteering for the Mine Clearance service when it was formed.
MaxD
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This would be worth the small investment if you don't already have it: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7714683 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7714683)
Edit: just realised it's probably the document on FindMyPast.
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Phidias was a cargo vessel of the Holt line http://www.clydeships.co.uk/view.php?ref=13689 Possible scenario is him serving on Phidias and volunteering for the Mine Clearance service when it was formed.
MaxD
PHIDIAS official number 135459. Her 1919 Crew Agreements and Logbooks, which will tell you when he was aboard can be obtained for a fee from
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=135459
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Thanks again bbart, my son and I came to the same conclusion when we saw the photo, as I said all other details are correct, the address is strange but that is difficult to check after 1911, and in reply to MaxB yes the picture is not correct the seamans picture is not my dads.
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the address is strange but that is difficult to check after 1911
There is a little snippet of a John William Burchnall in Dec. 1924 of 60 High St. Nuneaton, getting a fine for riding around on a loud motorcycle. Perhaps it was a typo, and should have been 66. Other than that, I can't find any other mention for his or his parents addresses in those years either. Are there city directories for Nuneaton somewhere?
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Thanks yet again bbart, how have you found that in 1924 ? he obviously is back on dry land after his naval activities, I think he must have had problems with employment as he is on the government course in April 1926 and in August 1926 he is off to Australia working on a sheep station ??????? That's it again until 1938 where we have a picture of him on Skegness front walking with my mum. Once again thanks everybody I am amazed what you lot have found out in a few days, and I have been trying for years. :) :) :) :) WeddieD1948