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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: kimbo68 on Sunday 25 March 18 17:25 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
I haven't posted in absolutely ages and am just getting back into my family tree having received my dna results. I really need some help in clarifying how to tell if I have the correct birth certificate for my great grandmother or not? Here is my problem:-
On marriage certificate her name is - GERTRUDE Caroline Smith married Thomas Staines 12.04.1903 Tottenham, Middlesex.
Aged 21 - this makes birth 1882
Father William Smith (still living) - Labourer
Residence 8 Brograve Road, Tottenham
On death certificate name - CAROLINE Staines
05.09.1944 Enfield, Middlesex
Aged 60 - makes birth 1884
Census 1911
CAROLINE Staines born Tottenham, Middlesex, married 8 years living in Enfield, Middlesex with husband Thomas Staines and children.
Aged 26 - makes birth 1885
I ordered the only GERTRUDE Caroline Smith birth in the Tottenham area around the year 1885 and these are the details from it:
5 Mar 1885
10 Howard Terrace, High Road
Gertrude Caroline
Girl
SIDNEY William Smith
Annie Mary Smith formerly Allwright
Solicitors Clerk
A M Smith, mother, 10 Howards Terrace, High Road, Tottenham
16 Apr 1885
Prior to receiving this certificate I had been told her parents were William Smith b. 1850 and Caroline Rumble b. 1852 which is completely different to the above.
Is it possible her father went from a solicitors clerk to a labourer. He also has Sidney as a first name followed by William which is a possiblity as Gertrude or Caroline proves they dropped names. How can I be sure which is correct? I cannot see another birth for a Gertrude or Caroline that coinside with the dates and place or birth
Below are the census I found for Sidney William and Annie Mary, I cannot find them on any others after 1891
1881 Census
RG11/1384/24 p 42
40 West Green Rd
Sidney Smith Head 23 Solicitor's clerk b Brixton, Surrey
Annie Smith 23 wife
1891 Census
RG12/37/171 Hammersmith
Sydney W Smith Head 33 Private engraving agent law ?stationed b Brixton, London
Annie M Smith wife
Sydney N Smith 10
Daisy M Smith 8
Gertrude C Smith 6
Mabel E Smith 3
Stanley Smith 1
Any help or input apprectiated
Thanks
Kim
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The gro now has a search facility which shows full names plus mothers maiden names.
I did a search for Gertrude Caroline Smith reg district Edmonton and only one came back
Jun 1885 mother’s maiden name Allwright.
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Have you checked the General Register office for Smith births, mother's maiden name Rumble in the area you are interested in?
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Free to register and search.
There are births in the Edmonton area but not a Gertrude/Caroline. What's the source of your Caroline Rumble as mother?
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Hello Kim,
I would say going from a solicitor's clerk to a labourer is very unlikely. Solicitor's clerk would have been a higher profession than labourer. I wouldn't get too hung up on her age range between 1882-1885 as the birth year always tended to be a bit fluid especially for women.
For a next step I would look for William Smith's death as I believe is should list his wife on the certificate? [Correct me if I'm wrong as I deal mostly with Scottish Records]. Also try working back from Gertrude Caroline Smith, see if you can find her on the 1901 Census.
There is a Gertrude A Smith living with parent William Smith, Shepherd, on the 1901 Census is Tottenham, Middlesex. This seems like a more likely match to the information you already have. The A could be a transcription error so you would need to look at the original image.
Hope this helps,
Hannah
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On marriage certificate her name is - GERTRUDE Caroline Smith married Thomas Staines 12.04.1903 Tottenham, Middlesex.
Aged 21 - this makes birth 1882
Father William Smith (still living) - Labourer
Residence 8 Brograve Road, Tottenham
On death certificate name - CAROLINE Staines
05.09.1944 Enfield, Middlesex
Aged 60 - makes birth 1884
You say that her father was still living when she married - did he witness the marriage :-\
A marriage certificate will not necessarily state that a father is deceased - that question is not one that would normally be asked.
Age at death is not reliable as is dependant on the informants knowledge, no proof of age would have been required.
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Given that she died as Caroline Staines in 1944, I would suggest you look for her as Caroline Staines in the 1939 Register on Findmypast to get a precise birthdate which you can then compare with birth/baptism records for possible matches.
A search of the free index suggests her birth details may have been mistranscribed, so best do a simple search for the one and only Caroline Staines there is, and examine the underlying document for her details.
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The witnesses to the 1903 marriage were Alfred George Smith and Louisa Smith. Have they been traced - or indeed the bride’s address at marriage, 8 Brograve Rd?
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Could this be the family
RG13 / 1248 f110 p13
145, Welbourne Road, Tottenham
William Smith 51
Caroline 50
Alfred Geo 25
William Ed 19
Caroline 16
Frances L 13
Could Frances L be Louisa :-\
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1901/ 1248/110/13
Caroline Smith 16yrs b Tottenham with parents William Smith who works in a Rubber Factory and Caroline Smith.
There are siblings including Alfred Geo. and Frances L.
Frances Louisa Smith b 1887 mmn Rumble.
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Yes we have all alighted on the same family - I was just about to post the same :)
Alexandra Kate Smith mmn Rumble, Dec qtr 1884 Edmonton - is this Gertrude Caroline in disguise?
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Caroline Smith mmn Poumble 1884 Edmonton vol 3a pg 288 December
William Edward Smith mmn Kumble 1882
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Or potentially, with some mistranscription of mother's maiden name?
SMITH, CAROLINE mmn POUMBLE
Q4 1884 EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 288
Snap!
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Yes we have all alighted on the same family - I was just about to post the same :)
Alexandra Kate Smith mmn Rumble, Dec qtr 1884 Edmonton - is this Gertrude Caroline in disguise?
OK I see that Alexandra was a red herring - she was a daughter of John Smith (son of Edward Smith) and Susannah Rumble (daughter of John Rumble) married in Hackney 13 Aug 1871.
Possibly related though - their marriage witnesses were William and Caroline Smith.
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Baptisms 26 Nov 1884 St Mary the Virgin, Haringey to William Smith (labourer) and Caroline of 6 Willow Terrace
William Edward Smith b 4 Feb 1882
Cardine [Caroline] Smith b 4 Sept 1884
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Moderator comment: 1939 details removed as this dataset is only available with a subscription, you may only post information from a free search and free preview
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Great result - and you had been given the right information, Kim. :)
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William Smith (son of Edward Smith) and Caroline Rumble (daughter of John Rumble) had married at West Hackney parish church on 6 June 1869. Witnesses were John Rumble & Susannah Rumble.
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Thank you so much to all of you for the information. My apologies for not replying sooner, we have been without electricity and therefore no internet!
I didn't knew you can now search by maiden name for births before 1910, that would have been a big help and I also didn't know that other records were available at find my past to what I use on ancestry.
Thanks again, I will now purchase the correct birth certificate.
Kim