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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Deskman on Sunday 18 March 18 08:51 GMT (UK)
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The diarist was in Reading, Berkshire. Where did he meet Mrs P?
I've been using Kelly's Directory of Berkshire (1887) to seek to identify places, streets, businesses and residents but have no strong candidates.
"...called on Mrs P.
who I had met at xxxxxxx went to dinner once or twice &
on the river like the P's very much"
Any help would be much appreciated.
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In case it helps here is a national list of place names used in registration.No matches beginning "Abb..." in Berkshire.Does anybody think the name ends in "y"?.Perhaps it's the name of a country house or similar.
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/places/regindex2-3.pdf
Regards
Roger
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Thanks despair,
I should have mentioned Abingdon as a possibility; spelt phonetically it is an approximation.
When writing about suffixes W W Skeat in Place-names of Berkshire (1911) wrote 'Abingdon should rather have become Abbindon or Abbendon'
We have found from examples posted earlier that the 'y' like form by this writer can include a range of letters - ing, ly
I'm not convinced by Abingdon - it is just that I have done no better.
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Is there any connection with Dr Shakel, whom our writer met in Ludlow, but had come from Reading? Details at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=787830.0
I'm wondering if the place might be meant to be Abberley, which is in Worcestershire, a few miles SW of Stourport-on-Severn, and not too far from Ludlow. If so, it seems he may not have remembered the name exactly, and had a few attempts at getting somewhere close.
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I'm wondering if the place might be meant to be Abberley, which is in Worcestershire, a few miles SW of Stourport-on-Severn, and not too far from Ludlow. If so, it seems he may not have remembered the name exactly, and had a few attempts at getting somewhere close.
I have been looking at census addresses for around the time but can't find anything in Reading, so wondered about Abberley
Gadget
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Thanks arthurk,
Well remembered. If is is Abberley then the connection with Dr Shackel is weak. This diary entry is 14 May to 4 June, before the writer goes to Shropshire and 5 months before meeting Shackel in Ludlow.
I do not wish to suggest it cannot be Abberley but I can't think of a reason for Mrs P and the diarist to both be there in May.
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Is there any hint at all about the names for the Ps anywhere in the diary?
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Thanks gadget
It is speculative but the Ps may be Mrs Alice and Mr Albert Woodward Parry (1834-1894), and family of ‘Airedale’, Carnarvon Road.
The diarist wrote that he was 'Amused at Ps remarks about C.' C was an architect.
Albert would have known the diarist's boss, C. well as Albert was an architect, and Reading borough engineer and surveyor 1871-1891.
BTW I have identified these C19 central Reading street names; Abbey Square, Abbey Street, Abbots Walk - they are all very close to the diarist's office (Blagrave St) and digs (Forbury).
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I think they were there in 1881 as well :-\
Speculative - Abbotleigh - Abbadley -maybe the way it was pronounced.
Will away to the census listings this afternoon.
Gadget
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Just to say that there's an Abbottsleigh Gardens in Caversham but think it's a recent addition - but what was it named for.
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Here I go again... ;D
I keep looking at the flourish on the top of the first "b". Why is it there?
Maybe it's not a "b" after all? Maybe he started to write a "b" and changed it to an "r", giving us "Arb...".
I thought originally that the additional bit above the word was "ad", but I've enlarged it greatly on my screen and it could be "fld." - what looks like a curve on the top of the (third letter) "b" could actually be the tail of an "f".
That would give us something along the lines of Arb...fld...
I've been googly mapping and there is an Arborfield which is part of Reading.
I realise that this is all very speculative, but the more I look at it, the more I can see an attempt at Arborfield...
Karen
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Saw that, Karen. I think it was to the SW of Reading itself - wasn't there an Arborfield Hall on the old OS maps?
Still looking for something with a leigh or ley ending as well.
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I know this is on thin ground,but the phrase "met at...." seems to imply a named house to me,whereas if it was a town it might more likely be "met in...."?(now I've written it out,I"m less sure!).
Regards
Roger
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What an interesting turn of events.
Karen McDonald's very neat forensic examination really helps my unhappiness about the 'bb'. Meeting gadget's and despair's criteria and the curious subscript like characters I offer without understanding or prejudice Arborfield Rectory
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I don't know if this has any relevance for you but Arborfield Rectory is occupied by John(rector) and Susanna Jones(rector's wife) and family in the 1891 census.
Regards
Roger
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...and in 1881 it is Edward Walsh and family.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks - I am unable to make anything of John Jones (who was appointed in April 1885 when Walsh moved to a parish at Honley near Huddersfield).
The Parrys were Anglicans, the diarist Baptist so I don't assert any understanding about Arborfield Rectory and would welcome any smarter interpretation or confirmation of the script, or indeed any interpretation!
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Any chance of another snip from the page to see how some of the other bs, etc, are formed. He does tend to change the shape of his letters.
Gadget
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Thanks for asking Gadget,
There is an extract from page 1 here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788407.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788407.0)
The four other l.c. b on the page are attached.
Cheers, Deskman
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The bs do seem to suggesst Abb, don't they? And he does tend to shorten his endings :-\
Not convinced by Arborfield.
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Just an observation-not sure where to go with it.
Looking at the map for Caernarvon Road,Reading it is quite close to Forbury Road,Reading Abbey(presumably the Abbot's residence) and Reading Baptist Church
Regards
Roger
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Don't know how this would fit into the context of the diary, but my first thought was the Abbey ruins, next to the Forbury gardens (and in my day not far from the library). Can't account for the superscript though.
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Just looking at this website:
https://www.readingabbeyquarter.org.uk/
add
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Abbey
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Thanks Gadget, aelfric and despair,
'Abbey...' does seems the attractive and obvious 'bb' answer to the word puzzle. As Karen McDonald has so clearly shown an issue with the serifs (my term) to the bs, the superscript and the subscript is outstanding. Her interpretation of overwriting had not been refuted nor the super and sub-scripts explained.
I am again stumped. Any further thoughts are more than welcome.
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Going back to your earlier post #2 which I seem to have overlooked - sorry, Abingdon seems a possible too as Abb...... I just cant see field or the r :-\
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Thanks again Gadget.
I attempt to show here what I think Karen McDonald saw. I'm sure sure Karen can put it better.
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Thanks for that but still not convinced. It just doesn't fit with the rest of the snip :-\
Why would they meet at a Rectory - maybe for tea but if he was a Baptist .....?
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I attempt to show here what I think Karen McDonald saw. I'm sure sure Karen can put it better.
;D I'll try.
The writer doesn't normally curl the top of a "b" downwards, which is why I see the tail of an "f" touching the "b" (the 3rd letter).
If you cover the main part of the word, the superscript looks like "fld.". (I think! :))
The serif on the top of the 2nd letter is also uncharacteristic for a "b" from his pen - it looks like a correction to me. Whether it is an "r" or not is a question which remains to be answered.
An "e" would be less likely, though.
I do agree with Roger/despair, though: I would also have said "in" for a town. ??? Unless I was talking about an event in a town, e.g. The Arborfield Country Fair - then I would say "at". (I hope this makes sense...)
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Thanks, Karen - I see the acute but thought it was a wayward stroke. It is a puzzle . Also agree with Roger - you usually meet in town or whatever and meet at somebody's or a house -e.g
I met you in London
I met you at the British Museum.
Gadget
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I do agree with Roger/despair, though: I would also have said "in" for a town. ??? Unless I was talking about an event in a town, e.g. The Arborfield Country Fair - then I would say "at". (I hope this makes sense...)
I think my example was a bit crap. ;D
I've just thought of a better one:
Ascot is a town, so I might meet someone in Ascot.
However, if we want to talk about gee-gee races there, I could say I will meet them at Ascot, because we are talking about the horseracing event and not the town itself.
Is that any clearer? ::) ;D
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I'm not sure whether it might have started life as 'Abbey', but if it has been amended to Arborfield, is it possible that the end of word '-y' element and the superscript next to it are now meant to be 'Grange'?
Arborfield Grange is a biggish house in the top left hand corner of this map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/97793338
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That looks neat arthurk, Very promising.
Thoughts anyone?
In the 1880s Arborfield Grange had just the 12 bedrooms and 13 acres!
It was occupied by Henry Mills Cannon and on the market in 1887 and changed occupiers in about June 1889 when the newly wed RN Commander Stuart Hamilton Rickman and wife moved in. He died in 1913 and his widow sold it in 1917.
Strangely the house's butler was imprisoned (two months hard labour) for sealing Cannon's brandy in 1888 and another butler of the house was imprisoned (three months hard labour) for stealing bottles of wine and a cigarette case from the owner in 1939. Both men had a previous conviction.
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The only Henry Mills Cannon I can see in 1881 was at Wonastow Court, Monmouthshire, aged 60 and late Surgeon General in the Bengal Army. He was born in Dublin. The household included his wife and daughter and 6 servants.
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That's the fella arthurk,
He died 12 October 1892 at 10 Eaton Place, London aged 72.
Obit attached.
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Just found his probate - 7th Nov 1892.
£9031, 2. 9 - revised from original of £8306.3.3
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changed occupiers in about June 1889 when the newly wed RN Commander Stuart Hamilton Rickman and wife moved in.
What was the date for the entry, Deskman? They could have met at a farewell or welcome do or, maybe, if Mr P was a surveyor, he was doing some survey work?
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Indeed Gadget,
The only dates I have are attached.
Could have been a farewell party, Primrose League garden fete, charity event...?
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It was occupied by Henry Mills Cannon and on the market in 1887 and changed occupiers in about June 1889 when the newly wed RN Commander Stuart Hamilton Rickman and wife moved in...
In 1891 Rickman was 47, born Tottenham, and his wife Caroline W was 28, born Scotland. No children listed, but there were 7 servants. (In 1881 he was with an elder brother at a manor house elsewhere in Berkshire.)
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I see from a much earlier post, you say that the diaries are from June 1889 so, if there is no mention of meeting the Ps or Arborfield/alt before this entry, then could we assume that the meeting was earlier that year :-\
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Thanks Gadget and arthurk,
The diarist was in Reading "May 14 to Jun 4th" 1889. He would have known the Ps from his articled years in Reading 1882-1885.
The Rickman marriage was mentioned in newspapers. Attached