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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: DavidTaylor on Friday 09 March 18 21:02 GMT (UK)
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Hello:
Maybe some DNA sleuth on here can suss this out. I would think it would be fairly easy, but its hurting my head.
For years I've been tracing my McQuire line in England. The line has always been a mystery. as far as we know my Great Grandfather Arthur George McQuire was an only child of George McQuire and Susannah Weatherhead McQuire of Staines and formerly of Ashford, Kent. Henry MacQuire (1813) MAY be another generation back, but no proof. Family wants to believe they go back to the MacQuarrie clan of Ulva, but since there have been many MANY misspellings though the years (MacQuire, McGuire, McWire, McQuor, Quire, etc etc etc- I've seen them all)who knows! Maybe we were originally a McGuire from Ireland and someone misspelled it as McQuire....
Anyway, Since there is one McQuire left in my line and he has no children I asked him to take a familytreedna test and he graciously agreed. I figured I'd go the DNA route to solve the mystery.
I excepted a similar results to my Taylor line which has hundreds of matches and goes back in the UK for thousands of years.... I was sort of bowled over when I saw his halogroup and realized its fairly uncommon. As a matter of fact, he has only 8 Y-DNA matches and they are all here in the American south. That SHOULD be a good thing right? Find the earliest US McQuire, see when they came over, then when I get to England, trace forward from the 18th century, instead of back.
So first question.. if I'm incorrect you can stop reading and just type back, "you're wrong"...
We only took the Y-37 test for familytreedna.... Any matches I have would be straight down the paternal line, correct? father to son to grandfather etc etc? So we would have to share a direct male ancestor?
If that is correct, here is the first mystery... I've written all 8 people.... at first I was getting responses of No McQuire/McQuire in our trees... seems the most frequent surname is Baker or Leeds.... So I'm thinking.. Maybe we aren't McQuire's after all... Maybe there was a baby Baker or a Leeds 200 years ago adopted by a McQuire and the name when down to line to my cousin with us all thinking we originated from the McQuire...
Finally, One of my matches responded in the affirmative.. He had McQuire/McGuire (I've posted line below....) Hurray!! Breakthrough! Not..
Bring on the next Mystery...
This person states his Ancestors are as follows....
Zachariah McGuire(1730–) Born in Virginia - Died in Georgia
Thomas (Thompson) Mcquire(1770-1840) - Possibly married to Margaret Hayes 1795 Georgia
Martha Patsy Mcquire(1795-1860) - married a William Hilley
Father/Son/granddaughter...
That can't be accurate match for my Y-DNA can it??
Here are the earliest ancestors of our 8 familytreeDNA matches. No living peoples names shown...
Genetic Distance 0
Y-DNA67 FF
James Leeds, b c1695 T-M70
0 Genetic Distance
Y-DNA67
John Baker, b 1603, England T-M70
0 - Genetic Distance
Y-DNA111 FF
William J Baker, b.1811 and d. 1879 T-M70
1 - distance
Jn C Cox
Y-DNA37 FF
T-M70
1 - distance
Y-DNA37
William John Murphey, b. 1798 Vg. d. 1863 Mo. T-M70
1- distance
Y-DNA37
Bartholomew Baker 1621 Eng-? Richmond, VA T-M70
1 - distance
Y-DNA37
James Terry Baker 1791 SC-1850 MS T-M70
So there is definitely a Leeds-Baker-McQuire/McGuire connection. Don't know where the Cox came from... just not sure how that would work, unless for example, a Baker or Leeds child was adopted by a McQuire......
Anyone that can at all help i would be most appreciative! Thank you
David
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Some thoughts.
I would consider at some point updating the yDNA test from 37 to at least 67 markers as this will give more accurate indications re a match. They do sales every now and again when it will be cheaper to do.
There are three "Mcquire" project groups on ftDNA have you compared the results you have to all three projects ?
it is possible some of the matches you have are the result of a non parental event on your line or the other persons line
I know we are looking at the y chromosome here but it may be worth finding out if these matches have done an autosomal test and put their results on gedmatch.com (its free) where they can be compared not only to ftDNA testers but people who tested with other companies too.
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Some thoughts.
I would consider at some point updating the yDNA test from 37 to at least 67 markers as this will give more accurate indications re a match. They do sales every now and again when it will be cheaper to do.
There are three "Mcquire" project groups on ftDNA have you compared the results you have to all three projects ?
it is possible some of the matches you have are the result of a non parental event on your line or the other persons line
I know we are looking at the y chromosome here but it may be worth finding out if these matches have done an autosomal test and put their results on gedmatch.com (its free) where they can be compared not only to ftDNA testers but people who tested with other companies too.
Thanks David...
I added him to a MacQuarrie project which has lots of McGuires and every one of them has a "R" halogroup. I'll look into the the Y67- How will that make the match any clearer? I also want to stay away from the familyfinder for him since I'm not really interested in his maternal line and it will just make the job harder I think?
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The reason I suggested the yDNA67 test is that by testing more markers it gives a more accurate interpretation of any match. I originally tested at yDNA37 level but when I upgraded to yDNA67 a lot of the matches I had at level 37 being a full 37/37 or a 36/37 match then dropped off at the 67 level and showed they were not really a match worth pursuing as any match would be so far back you could not make a paper trail to support in most cases.
The reason I had suggested the familyfinder is it is what you need to upload results to Gedmatch and similar sites. Yes I know it includes all lines but sometimes these are useful for eliminating possible matches that turn out not to be matches. Even if you don't do it now it is something you could put on the back burner to reconsider later if need be.
Another though have you run the results through Ysearch (details on the ftDNA site) where they can compare the results with people who have tested elsewhere and so may throw up some more matches.
Oh and final thing I did my yDNA test five years ago and to date no helpful results but maybe one day ......
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My Jeremiah Baker b 1777 and lived in Elbert co georgia for 20 years matches the baker dna you refer to. Possible father Samuel baker. Samuel baker Elbert co georgia lives on cold water creek. Land records with Allegheny McGuire (Miegany mcgtiire) in 1800. Sgt Allegany McGuire born 6 aug 1757 Cumberland co va died 28 June 1843 McNair’s co tenn. he was in Elbert co georgia census of 1790 to 1810. In revolution under generals Lincoln and gates. It’s nice to meet a genetic cousin.
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The reason I suggested the yDNA67 test is that by testing more markers it gives a more accurate interpretation of any match. I originally tested at yDNA37 level but when I upgraded to yDNA67 a lot of the matches I had at level 37 being a full 37/37 or a 36/37 match then dropped off at the 67 level and showed they were not really a match worth pursuing as any match would be so far back you could not make a paper trail to support in most cases.
The reason I had suggested the familyfinder is it is what you need to upload results to Gedmatch and similar sites. Yes I know it includes all lines but sometimes these are useful for eliminating possible matches that turn out not to be matches. Even if you don't do it now it is something you could put on the back burner to reconsider later if need be.
Another though have you run the results through Ysearch (details on the ftDNA site) where they can compare the results with people who have tested elsewhere and so may throw up some more matches.
Oh and final thing I did my yDNA test five years ago and to date no helpful results but maybe one day ......
Just an update... I finally upgraded to Y-111 and today just ordered Y-500. I'm thinking there must have been something like an illegitimate birth or something at some point
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My Jeremiah Baker b 1777 and lived in Elbert co georgia for 20 years matches the baker dna you refer to. Possible father Samuel baker. Samuel baker Elbert co georgia lives on cold water creek. Land records with Allegheny McGuire (Miegany mcgtiire) in 1800. Sgt Allegany McGuire born 6 aug 1757 Cumberland co va died 28 June 1843 McNair’s co tenn. he was in Elbert co georgia census of 1790 to 1810. In revolution under generals Lincoln and gates. It’s nice to meet a genetic cousin.
Good to meet you. I just ordered a Y-500 test. Maybe you can encourage any of the male Baker line to take DNA tests!! :-)
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Sounds to me like you are a baker that surname changed to mcquire sometime in the past. By a non paternal event as they say. Basically adoption. I'm curious about your big y dna test. Have you taken an autosomal test too? Ibjabe done both. The autosomal with ancestry. I'd love to here how you made out
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Sounds to me like you are a baker that surname changed to mcquire sometime in the past. By a non paternal event as they say. Basically adoption. I'm curious about your big y dna test. Have you taken an autosomal test too? Ibjabe done both. The autosomal with ancestry. I'd love to here how you made out
Hi there. Sorry for the 4 year delay on a response. I've done every test. I've done autosomnal tests and Y tests. Since my last post I ran the McQuire DNA on FTDNA Big Y and there is one match, Marcus H Baker of South Carolina.The Male line is
John Baker(1603)
Bartholomew Baker(1621-)
? Baker
? Baker
? Baker
? Baker
? Baker
William J. Baker(1811-1879)
John Thomas Baker(1848-1910)
Charles Hillman Brough Baker(1901-1977)
But also has these ancestors
Zachariah McGuire(1730–)
Thomas Mcquire(1770-1840)
Martha Patsy Mcquire(1795-1860)
So the link must be to Thomas or Zachariah?
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Hi,
Well that depends. When is your Most Recent Common Ancestor with Baker from a genetic point of view? The Match Time Tree on FTDNA gives you this.
You have two paper trails which may be incorrect at any point. There seems to be an intersection with Bakers and McGuires in Elbert mentioned in previous posts?
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Now I'm puzzled too. I tested with ftdna > 5 years ago (Y67) and their website tells me I'm T-M70. It also tells me it has no Y-DNA matches for me at even the Y12 level. Why do we not see each other?
(My direct male line takes me back to Yorkshire in England, to the 1730s: validated by umpteen autosomal matches.)
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Is your closest match a paternal McGuire or Baker? There should also be a tool/button that gives you a very vague estimation of the time-frame for the link, e.g. between 1350 and 1600. So if this Baker match is in a more distant time-frame then it's not very genealogically relevant. And it's possible either or both of your lines have non-paternal evens. In terms of UK + US ancestry, you are probably looking at towards 5% chance of a birth being a non-paternal event like a child swapped at birth, born out of wedlock, infidelity, or fostering.
It's difficult to be able to make much sense of all this info if not provided in an interactive way, and the ability to dig through all the results.
Have you done much work with Ancestry DNA matches? Found any matches there with common McGuire ancestry? If you upgrade to Ancestry ProTools, look through every shared match of the McGuire matches and use the search button at the top right of profile pages to search for dead ends in public trees. It's a bit of work, but if you want to get to the bottom of these things, you have to do a lot of work. There's also quite a lot of work you'd need to know to make sure you are doing things correctly. DNA genealogy isn't something that does itself.
On the rare T-M70 haplogroup, you'd have to look through the various matches to see if there is enough info to extrapolate a migration path. It could be that someone of that lineage was part of the Yamnaya culture who lived in what is now Southern Russia and got carried in with various migrations into Europe. Or maybe it flowed into Britain as a result of migrations from the Roman Empire, originating in the near east.
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Out of interest what Haplogroup did the Big y test reveal?
The initial Haplogroup given is generally so far in the past that its use in Genealogy research is limited.
I agree with 4b2, concentrating on the Ancestry DNA matches is likely to reveal more.
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T-FT8342
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T-FT8342
It may not have many matches, as the matches may be from populations that are not much tested, i.e. outside of the US.
The best that can be said is that around 6,000 years ago the lineage appeared to be in the Middle East, maybe Arabia specifically. So there is not much information to suggest a possible lineage. Given there are two bearers of the parent haplogroup in Italy, it could have found it's way in during the Roman Empire. Rome had many trade links with what is now Arabia.
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Now I'm puzzled too. I tested with ftdna > 5 years ago (Y67) and their website tells me I'm T-M70. It also tells me it has no Y-DNA matches for me at even the Y12 level. Why do we not see each other?
At 12 markers the furthest back ago you will get matches is about 2000 BC. But that varies. And there can be false positives at that level. So the likelihood is that you are from another sub-clade to the OP.
T-M70 is from around 13,000 BC according to FTDNA.
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R-M269 is my haplogroup.
Knowing it is of Zero use to me in researching my family history.
Knowing that for the last few thousands of years my ancestors were in Western Europe is not telling me anything useful as it is far to general.
Even forking out excessive amounts of cash for a Big y test is only going to refine the result to a sub-branch which then is still going to be of little Genealogical use as again it is generic by nature.
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R-M269 is my haplogroup.
Knowing it is of Zero use to me in researching my family history.
Knowing that for the last few thousands of years my ancestors were in Western Europe is not telling me anything useful as it is far to general.
Even forking out excessive amounts of cash for a Big y test is only going to refine the result to a sub-branch which then is still going to be of little Genealogical use as again it is generic by nature.
Hopefully MyHeritage or Ancestry will buy FTDNA one day, as it seems clear that FTDNA don't have the necessary attributes to take Y + mt testing to a consumer audience. It's mostly used by hardened genealogists and people searching for their father. I am fairly sure the price of Y-DNA tests could be significantly reduced. Their autosomal business has obviously been nuked and all they have left really is the seemingly overpriced Y tests. You can get full genome tests for about the same now.
I also see that Peter Thiel's fund is looking to acquire 23AndMe to their already existing DNA company:
Nucleus Genomics, a New York-based whole-genome testing company, is connected to Peter Thiel. It is backed by Thiel’s Founders Fund, among other investors, and its CEO, Kian Sadeghi, has expressed interest in acquiring 23andMe, particularly for its telehealth subsidiary, Lemonaid.
Nucleus Genomics is a New York-based company specializing in whole-genome sequencing (WGS) and genetic analysis to provide personalized health insights. Unlike many genetic tests that analyze less than 0.1% of DNA, Nucleus sequences the entire genome—approximately 6 billion letters—to identify millions of variants that may impact health.
Their full genome test is actually less than the FTDNA Big-Y test, which give an impression of how overpriced it is.
It would be nice if a boat load of VC cash could be used to bootstrap another outfit offering genealogy DNA services, to boost the number of people you can match to and hopefully get better coverage for Y and mt matching.
From what I'm reading whole genome would offer better sifting of identical by state and descent segments, in short better weeding out of false positives.
Autosomal Tests: These typically analyze ~600,000–700,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) across the 22 autosomal chromosomes, covering less than 0.1% of the genome. They focus on common SNPs selected for ancestry and health insights but miss many rare or private variants.
WGS: Sequences all ~6 billion base pairs of the genome, including all autosomal SNPs, rare variants, and structural variations (e.g., insertions, deletions). This provides millions of data points, capturing virtually all genetic variation relevant to relatedness.
The denser data from WGS allows detection of smaller and more numerous shared DNA segments, increasing the chance of identifying matches with distant relatives who share fewer or less common segments.
Autosomal Tests: These rely on identifying identical by descent (IBD) segments, typically requiring a minimum length (e.g., 7–10 centiMorgans [cM]) to confirm a match. For 4th cousins, who share 0.2% of DNA (13–20 cM on average), the segments are often small or fragmented, leading to a ~50% detection rate due to limitations in SNP coverage or recombination events breaking up segments.
WGS: Captures all DNA variants, enabling detection of shorter IBD segments (e.g., <7 cM) with higher confidence. It also identifies rare variants shared by descent, which autosomal tests might miss. This increases the sensitivity for detecting distant relationships.
***
I've got five y-DNA test so far. Only one big-Y, but you can often determine some of your recent haplogroups if your closest matches have taken big-Y. From that, you can extrapolate out migration path. Though it is somewhat circumstantial, the results are more of a best guess. One example:
(https://i.ibb.co/k6Jj7BJ4/x.png)
For this specific line it appears it was probably part of the latest Bell Beaker immigration to Britain, c. 1800 BC, rather than the later Celtic migrations from c. 1250 BC to the Roman conquest.
So with the data you can get a reasonable idea of what historic peoples your line was part of. There is quite a wealth of archeological research on prehistoric cultures. You can get a reasonable idea of which pre-Roman tribes your ancestor belonged to in Celtic Britain, Germanic peoples, and early Celtic cultures of Europe. You can also see fairly clearly if your line ended up switching from Celtic to Germanic via conquest, or vice versa. Since the area that is now Germany was the intermediary zone between the Bell Beaker culture that likely spoke a predecessor of Celtic and the adjacent Corded Ware culture, that likely spoke Balto-Slavic.
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R-M269 is my haplogroup.
Knowing it is of Zero use to me in researching my family history.
Knowing that for the last few thousands of years my ancestors were in Western Europe is not telling me anything useful as it is far to general.
Even forking out excessive amounts of cash for a Big y test is only going to refine the result to a sub-branch which then is still going to be of little Genealogical use as again it is generic by nature.
Hopefully MyHeritage or Ancestry will buy FTDNA one day, as it seems clear that FTDNA don't have the necessary attributes to take Y + mt testing to a consumer audience. It's mostly used by hardened genealogists and people searching for their father. I am fairly sure the price of Y-DNA tests could be significantly reduced. Their autosomal business has obviously been nuked and all they have left really is the seemingly overpriced Y tests. You can get full genome tests for about the same now.
I also see that Peter Thiel's fund is looking to acquire 23AndMe to their already existing DNA company:
Nucleus Genomics, a New York-based whole-genome testing company, is connected to Peter Thiel. It is backed by Thiel’s Founders Fund, among other investors, and its CEO, Kian Sadeghi, has expressed interest in acquiring 23andMe, particularly for its telehealth subsidiary, Lemonaid.
Nucleus Genomics is a New York-based company specializing in whole-genome sequencing (WGS) and genetic analysis to provide personalized health insights. Unlike many genetic tests that analyze less than 0.1% of DNA, Nucleus sequences the entire genome—approximately 6 billion letters—to identify millions of variants that may impact health.
Their full genome test is actually less than the FTDNA Big-Y test, which give an impression of how overpriced it is.
It would be nice if a boat load of VC cash could be used to bootstrap another outfit offering genealogy DNA services, to boost the number of people you can match to and hopefully get better coverage for Y and mt matching.
From what I'm reading whole genome would offer better sifting of identical by state and descent segments, in short better weeding out of false positives.
Autosomal Tests: These typically analyze ~600,000–700,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) across the 22 autosomal chromosomes, covering less than 0.1% of the genome. They focus on common SNPs selected for ancestry and health insights but miss many rare or private variants.
WGS: Sequences all ~6 billion base pairs of the genome, including all autosomal SNPs, rare variants, and structural variations (e.g., insertions, deletions). This provides millions of data points, capturing virtually all genetic variation relevant to relatedness.
The denser data from WGS allows detection of smaller and more numerous shared DNA segments, increasing the chance of identifying matches with distant relatives who share fewer or less common segments.
Autosomal Tests: These rely on identifying identical by descent (IBD) segments, typically requiring a minimum length (e.g., 7–10 centiMorgans [cM]) to confirm a match. For 4th cousins, who share 0.2% of DNA (13–20 cM on average), the segments are often small or fragmented, leading to a ~50% detection rate due to limitations in SNP coverage or recombination events breaking up segments.
WGS: Captures all DNA variants, enabling detection of shorter IBD segments (e.g., <7 cM) with higher confidence. It also identifies rare variants shared by descent, which autosomal tests might miss. This increases the sensitivity for detecting distant relationships.
***
I've got five y-DNA test so far. Only one big-Y, but you can often determine some of your recent haplogroups if your closest matches have taken big-Y. From that, you can extrapolate out migration path. Though it is somewhat circumstantial, the results are more of a best guess. One example:
(https://i.ibb.co/k6Jj7BJ4/x.png)
For this specific line it appears it was probably part of the latest Bell Beaker immigration to Britain, c. 1800 BC, rather than the later Celtic migrations from c. 1250 BC to the Roman conquest.
So with the data you can get a reasonable idea of what historic peoples your line was part of. There is quite a wealth of archeological research on prehistoric cultures. You can get a reasonable idea of which pre-Roman tribes your ancestor belonged to in Celtic Britain, Germanic peoples, and early Celtic cultures of Europe. You can also see fairly clearly if your line ended up switching from Celtic to Germanic via conquest, or vice versa. Since the area that is now Germany was the intermediary zone between the Bell Beaker culture that likely spoke a predecessor of Celtic and the adjacent Corded Ware culture, that likely spoke Balto-Slavic.
Slightly concerned by your insight.
If whoever aquires 23&me is mainly interested in the health aspects then that does not bode well with Biological Genealogical research.
I am not sure what it is but there is already a link between My Heritage and ftDNA.