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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: lucymags on Friday 23 February 18 05:19 GMT (UK)
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I have a long way to go on this one, but trying to pick out names where I can at the moment. I have a "cheat sheet" of 17th C letters, but this one doesn't quite fit anything I can see or work out logically. I think it's John ..apman, husband of his daughter Alice. Any suggestions?
Edit - I think that I may just have answered it myself; it must be the most obvious (which was my first thought), Chapman, based on this text further down, referring to goods and chattels, which I'll attach as well...
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And I may as well post others as I come to them...
I'm guessing this is my sister Johane - a form of Joan or Joanna or Johanna?
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You are correct with Chapman. It's called a "hot-cross-bun" C.
Also correct that the second is Johane. This is influenced by the way the female equivalent of Johanes/John is written in Latin.
It can be read as any of the names you mentioned, and she might have been known by any of them at different times. I would put Joan in the transcript.
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And one last one for now, before I get back to trying to work out the bits in between the names!
This one seems to talk about friends Richard Amber(?) and Thomas Springett - appearing to write the "h" in Thomas a bit differently in the second mention of his name. This seems to confirm that the squiggly E-looking character (as per my first post) must denote a small "h". My cheat sheet shows something slightly similar, although not really recognisable as the same as this one.
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You are correct with Chapman. It's called a "hot-cross-bun" C.
Also correct that the second is Johane. This is influenced by the way the female equivalent of Johanes/John is written in Latin.
It can be read as any of the names you mentioned, and she might have been known by any of them at different times. I would put Joan in the transcript.
Ah, great, thanks for that!
Now to just work out what it was exactly he was leaving to Alice, and also to "sonne" John mentioned earlier... ??? (Although less important than capturing all of the names at this point.)
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Richard Amherst Esq(ui)(re)
Thomas Springit knighte
S(ir) Thomas Springett
There are two forms of h and two forms of r used in the clip.
ADDED:
And two forms of d & e.
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Ah, I see. Thanks once again. That makes sense.
Just one more thing (for now, anyway!), can you make out a date amongst these words? It's the will of a John Hart(e) of Ringmer, and I know that the probate date is 15 May 1622, but does this first sentence say something about ffebruary, or am I misreading it?
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It's: ...the Eighth day of ffebruary...one thowsand sixe hundred and thirteene...
Note that this is an Old-Style date. In our calendar the year is 1614.
The many words in the middle are mostly expressing the regnal year which, as it is James I, is very complicated.
It boils down to the eleventh year of his reign in England, France & Ireland and the forty-seventh year of Scotland.
I'm heading out, Lucy, so I will leave you in the hands of the forum.
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Sorry to keep pestering but this really is the last, at least for a good while I hope. I thought I may as well snip the whole chunk and say what bits I've managed to pick out. I would like to ascertain the people and their relationships if possible.
From this bit I can see that he wants to be buried in the high "chamrell"?? of the Ringmer church, next to the [something] of his wife was buryed... (I can't make out a name, and is it implied that she's already dead and buried there?)
[Something] to Giles Sterne sonne of James(?) Sterne husband(??) of my daughter Margaret his wife, the [something or other - place?]... money to be paid...
Then I get lost - something about my executor... or/on his father and mother... and a word that could be hall...?
I don't need every single word, but would like to know if his wife is already dead, if I've missed her name, and if there's anyone else I need to know about besides the daughter Margaret who is married to Giles Sterne (and if I have that right).
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It's: ...the Eighth of day of ffebruary...one thowsand sixe hundred and thirteene...
Note that this is an Old-Style date. In our calendar the year is 1614.
The many words in the middle are mostly expressing the regnal year which, as it is James I, is very complicated.
It boils down to the eleventh year of his reign in England, France & Ireland and the forty-seventh year of Scotland.
I'm heading out, Lucy, so I will leave you in the hands of the forum.
Ah, I see, that's great, thank you very much, I appreciate your help.
No urgency about the rest, it can wait until whenever, but if anyone else can help spread the load, that's good too!
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I've now managed to decipher some of the places now, but can't make out or think of anything to match this one. ???
Barony or borough of ??lingham in the countie of Sussex? (There's a Willingdon in Sussex? Only Willingham I can see is in Cambridge.)
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Transcription of extract 6 (reply #8):
... I Committ to the Earthe Desyring yt may be Decentlie buryed in the highe Channcell
of the Churche of Ringmer next to the place where my Wife was buryed. Item I giue to
Giles Sternes sonne of David Sternes and of my Daughter Margaret his wife
the somme of twentie poundes of lawfull money to be payd hym at his age of one and
Twentie yeres And I will that myne Executor shall allowe hym or his father and mother
for and toward(es) his bringing up yerelie untill he shall accomplishe the saied age the somme ...
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Extract 7 (reply #10)
... Burroughe of Wellingham in the Countie of Sussex ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringmer
'Other small settlements in the parish include Upper Wellingham, Ashton Green, Broyle Side, Little Norlington and Shortgate.'
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Oh, that's fantastic, thank you Bookbox. So Giles is the son of Margaret and David - I would have got that wrong! (And that word chancel was floating somewhere in my brain but I just couldn't access it at the right time... :-[)
I have just been ploughing through the rest and have caught a few more words and names which may be of significance which I can't transcribe with any certainty. I'll just post them all together here before taking another break.
The first one is just another place name - not sure if meant to be Hollington?
The second talks about his sonne John again, and his heirs and executors - but is that a name Edward or perhaps Edmund the sonne of...? in the second line?
Seems to mention a sonne William in the third (not mentioned elsewhere as far as I can see)... to be sole and alone executor?
Last one, friend and father-in-law Thomas (says abovenamed, which I must have missed before, will look again later) [surname?] to be my ???
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Sorry, I'm off to work now. No doubt someone else will chip in.
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Sorry, I'm off to work now. No doubt someone else will chip in.
No worries, thanks for your help. It's evening here and I'm quite happy to wait until tomorrow! :)
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...Burroughe of Norlington...
...yf my sonne John his heires Executors or assignes do paye
or cause to be payed unto the sayed Edward the Somme of fower hundred poundes within fower
yeres after my decease and paye some twentie poundes a yere every yere during the sayed...
...nominate my Sonne william Peterson to be sole and alone Executor...
...dere freind and father-in-lawe Mr Thomas Hukman abovenamed to
be my Supervisor and Overseer desyring hym to be ayding and assisting both unto
my sayed Executor as allso unto all my other Children with his best advise and Counsaile...
Counsaile = Counsel
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I wonder if it might be Thomas Hickman ?
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Could be, Bookbox.
I didn't see that as a possibility on first reading (but was troubled by the rough spelling). It's a small & faint horizontal but it is there.
As he is mentioned earlier we shall presumably find the answer there.
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Lucy, having found that you did indeed name the testator, I had a quick scan of the will for the first instance of the name in that last clip.
Unless I am going batty, it appears that the last two clips aren't from the Harte will. Is that right?
If so, it explains why you didn't notice his name before.
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I think you're right, HD, well spotted. I did wonder why John Harte's son was called William Peterson, and it appears that the will of Daniel Peterson immediately precedes John Harte's in the register.
It's easy to get the pages confused when everything's hard to read.
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Oh, thank you both very much, Bookbox and horselydown, and I do apologise for posting that extraneous work! It is me who was going batty, clearly. :-[ By the time I got to looking for the last time, I was tired after hours of peering at the three pages and must have zoomed in at the wrong spot. I wondered why I hadn't spotted those names before!
So as far as I can see so far, the only named relatives in the will are a single son, John; daughter Alice married to Nicholas Chapman and their son John; daughter Margaret married to David Sterne and their son Giles; and sister Johane/Joan (interesting about the derivation of that one, btw horselydown - I never did Latin at school, but have always found languages and etymology fascinating!).
And then there are the friends Richard Amherst and Sir Thomas Springett. David Sterne is one of the witnesses, I think Arthur Langwart/Langward(?) another one.
I am now going to put together the translations I have, then review it all again and see if I spot anything else of potential interest. (A shame I don't have a wife's name or surname, because there are no obvious matches in the Sussex marriage index, but I will cross that bridge later...)
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David Sterne is one of the witnesses, I think Arthur Langwart/Langward(?) another one.
The named witnesses are as follows.
...Theise beyng witnesses Robert Carewe
David Sterne Arthur Langworth:
Carew was a big name in Tudor England. John's connection to Robert might be worth investigation.
* There's another son Edward who is under 26 years at time of writing.
He is first mentioned a few lines under where the word Norlington appears.
* Near the end of the middle page, he calls Richard, Earl of Dorset, his good Lord and Maister.
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Ah, thanks again, horsleydown. You beat me to it with one thing - I was just coming back to edit my post to change that to Langworth!
And I was going to ask about the Robert name, having figured out some of the letters but struggling to make it Carew (which name I'd come across on another branch of ancestors, except they were Careys - related, I think). It seems that Thomas Springett was the lord of Southease Manor soon after this, and also Plumpton Manor, and there was a Francis Carew who owned the latter before him. I suppose all of those wealthy landowners just passed those properties amongst the various families.
And thanks for tip about the other son Edward and the Earl of Dorset. I think I did spot that Edward at some point and then forgot to come back to that point.
I think that you have probably covered everything I need before I've had time to go through it properly for a final time. I'll just leave the thread open a bit longer in case I find anything else of interest to pick your brains about later, else will mark it as completed once I've noted everything (if I can find the way to do that again - I did once before... :-\).
Many thanks for your work (and to Bookbox), and for helping me to improve my skills. Much appreciated. :)
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Is this bit talking about sisters of the said John Chapman (his grandson) by any chance? ???
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And sorry, last one - something about some land in Stroude(?) - can't make out the word after it, and on the line underneath is that a place beginning "All..."? There is a place on the map called Allington Farm, but I cannot see those letters there.
...now in the occupation of Margaret... ???
(I know that there's other land, some in the occupation of other people, but I'm not going to worry about the rest. Having spotted Stroude on the map, I'm just curious about that one.)
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... I give to the twoe Sisters of the sayed John Chapman ...
... Harte my Landes and Tenement(es) called Strowdes Hamerland, the roughe Croft(es) and the
house thereuppon latelie builded All which now are in the occupation of Mathewe Everest
or his assignes set lying & beyng in the Burroughe of Blackham within the parishes of ...
(Irregular spacing between words can be misleading.)
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Ah, great, thanks again Bookbox.
I think I can call this one well and truly completed at this point. :)
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Some local history & geography here.
Wellingham and Norlington are two of the 'burroughs' of the parish of Ringmer [old settlements assembled to create the parish of Ringmer]. Norlington is next to a large (2,000acre) common- deerpark called The Broyle, also in Ringmer.
Sir Thomas Springett, was eldest son of a wealthy Lewes lawyer, Herbert Springett, who had prospered as local factotum for Sir Thomas Sackville, later Lord Buckhurst, later 1st Earl of Dorset, who became immensely wealthy as Lord Treasurer to Queen Elizabeth I. Herbert Springett bought and rebuilt a mansion called Broyle Place, tucked in to the eastern side of the Broyle, on the far eastern boundary of Ringmer parish. buying it from the Langworth family. The Langworths were ironmasters from Buxted, but had strong connections to the Elizabethan theatre scene in London. Herbert Springett established his sons at Broyle Place as members of the county gentry. He has a memorial in the Springett chapel of Ringmer church which shows him in Puritan dress and claims he spent his life assisting widows and orphans (hopefully not the way he made so much money).
Richard Amherst succeeded Herbert Springett as Sussex lawyer/steward to the Sackville/Dorset family, managing their manors.
The Sackville/Dorsets best known house was the former royal palace of Knole, Kent, (now in the care of the National Trust) but they also owned manors across Sussex, including the former-royal manor of Ringmer. They also held the lease, from the Crown, of the Broyle, where they were masters of the game.
John Hart's master was I think the 3rd Earl of Dorset, a national figure, though without the political clout of his grandfather. His executors were the two senior lawyers in the local Sackville/Dorset patronage network. What was John HART's role? I think he was a bit lower down the hierarchy, described only as a yeoman when in 1590 he purchased a house called Dunstalls in Norlington borough, tucked into the western side of the Broyle. John Hart junior sold it in the 1640s to one of Sir Thomas Springett's younger sons (Thomas Springett of Plumpton was another younger son) but Edward Hart, gent, was still living there as tenant in the 1662 hearth tax, when with 8 hearths it was the largest house in Norlington. For comparison Broyle Place had 30 hearths, typical cottages and farmhouses 1-4 hearths.
What did John Hart do for the Earl of Dorset? Probably something to do with the Broyle, of which the Earl was Master. He wasn't the huntsman/park keeper in charge of the deer - there were two of them, and they lived in lodges in the Broyle itself. He might have had some supervisory role, but most probably he was in charge of the wood business. He is identified as woodward of the Broyle in two May 1609 letters in the Cecil papers at Hatfield House written by Sir Henry GULDEFORDE to the Earl of Salisbury, then Lord Treasurer. HART the woodward was then 'in Town', and GULDEFORDE thought he should be hauled before the attorney general to account for all the tree felling going on. DORSET was Master of the Game, with the right to hunt the Broyle deer, but not to cut down timber, which belonged to the crown, and over which GULDEFORDE (a relative of the GAGE family who owned the adjoining Plashett Park) had oversight. This was the height of the Wealden iron industry, which had a massive demand for charcoal, created by itinerant workers who felled and burnt coppice wood for the purpose. We know from other sources that in the 16th/17th centuries most of the timber growing in the Broyle was replaced by coppice, but that as the industry declined from the late-17th century the timber was allowed to re-grow. Woodward was not necessarily a full-time job. John HART had a certain amount of land outside the Broyle himself, so doubtless combined this with a bit of farming.
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Thank you so much for this and your other responses on other threads, Fairmeadow2 - very much appreciated. As it's been nearly two years since I have focused on this (and genealogy in general) and I don't have time to get back into it at the moment, I will have to get back to you once I have got my head around where I was and what I was doing, re-checked the various profiles I have, and try to absorb the new info you have given. Hopefully I will get back to you within the next few days, and also contact you via the Ringmer site. Thanks again. :)