RootsChat.Com
General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: tdgower2 on Saturday 17 February 18 21:30 GMT (UK)
-
Hi roots chatters, I'm just here to work out how these DNA Tests work and what results I can get from them.
I would like to take a Y-DNA test as my great-great grandfather was illegitimate. I was hoping that this test would help me find out who his dad was. Is that possible?
Sorry if I sound a bit thick but i'm new to this side of genealogy.
Cheers, Tom
-
In theory its possible but it would be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack and most importantly someone in a male line descent from your great great grandfathers father would also have to take the test and be a spot on match. Even if all that happened you would then need to construct a good paper trail on both lines to back up the findings of the test results. As a word of caution I took a yDNA test about 5 years ago as hopefully a way of helping with my paternal line that peters out around 1750 in rural Northumberland, to date its not yielded any helpful results.
If you do take a yDNA test to try and help with this then I would say a 12yDNA and 37yDNA test would not be helpful and you really need to take a 67yDNA test at least. This helps eliminate the possibility of false positives which would be particularly likely with the 12yDNA test. The test work by testing a number of markers, or "short tandem repeats (STRs)", on the Y chromosome so obviously the higher the number of markers the more chance of a meaningful result. Also if you take the tests the more DNA comparison sites the results are on the more likely you are to get a match as it will bring in people who test with other companies.
As I said at the beginning its a long shot but if you go ahead good luck and hope it proves useful though it will probably take a long time to match.
-
It is also possible that if you find a DNA match which appears promisingly close, you may not be able to find the paper connection, or even worse, as I have found with my father's results, a promising match did not supply any contact details. I think the 12 matches are nigh on useless, and the 25 not much better, so if you do decode to test, go for the 67 or higher as David recommends.
Like David I tested my father and my partner several years ago with no useful connections found yet, and my partner has an extremely common surname. Some people get lucky though ...
-
You might also wish to consider an autosomal test, perhaps instead of the Y test. Cheaper and becoming more and more mainstream, offered by a variety of companies. It would provide you with matches on your maternal as well as paternal lines, and estimate how far back you might need to go to find the common ancestor, whereas with Y testing if you get a close match there's not really any way of telling how far back it goes. With Y testing you might get lucky with a table full of all the same surname, but the only good match my father got with someone of the same surname was his known cousin, all his other matches are a complete mix of surnames and not close anyway (the chromosome slowly mutates and for these other matches the mutation is quite significant).
Bear in mind that the advertised promises are on the optimistic side and dependent on matches having accurate trees on their DNA databases. If you don't have a tree and your top match doesn't have a tree then the name of the elusive MRCA (most recent common ancestor) isn't going to materialise out of the ether.
Jane :-)
-
Another thought. Have you found the baptism of your great great grandfather as sometimes (OK I admit this is rare) the reputed father of an illegitimate child is named in the baptism. I am estimating that your gg grandfather was born around 1870 and this is certainly a period when such an event might be recorded thus.
I have a case in my tree of one of my great grandmothers being illegitimate and I did not expect to find out who her father was. From the earliest census record she was on when she was 2 1/2 she was with the family that were later to adopt her. Leading on from a tip on here I decided to look for a baptism for her but there was nothing in Anglican records. Eventually I wrote to the county archives and asked them to do a search for a baptism for her. I told them what I knew and the fact that this persons daughter was a Methodist. They did the search and found the record amongst some Methodist records which I would most likely not have found on my own.
So in short I would advise looking for a baptism. If you cannot find one then it may be worth writing to the county records office concerned seeing if they can find it. If you do tell them what you know including such things as if a different religion might be involved. My search request mentioned above cost £15 from memory but it was quite tightly specified and I was very happy with it as it got a result.
Good luck.
-
Thank you for the replies everyone.
With regards to davidft, my Great-Great Grandfather was William Gower and was born in 1868 in Pulham Market Workhouse (Depwade Union Workhouse). He was born to a single mother, Martha Gower, and was then I believe adopted by James and Charlotte Blanch from Beccles, Suffolk. He is in the 1871 census as William Blanch, then becomes William Gower from 1881.
I had a suspicion that James Blanch was the father but I went up to Norfolk Record Office a few years ago and they were very helpful. We found the baptism with just the mother's name and no father.
I think i'll put the dna test on hold for now, i might choose to do one in the future when there is more chance of me finding a match.
Cheers, Tom
-
Although you have heard a couple of stories of people having no useful results from their DNA tests, the more people who test, the more results there will be, so it is a double edged sword.
It is still an interesting exercise nevertheless.
Maybe dip your toes in the water and take an autosomal test as suggested by Jane. Autosomal tests can be very useful if your maternal and paternal lines originate in different parts of the world (like mine do - I can tell which of my "matches" belong to which side of the family). :)
-
Just resurrecting this post which has helpful information. Any changes to this advice in the last 12 months - and which firms offer 67yDNA (if you're allowed to post it here)? Thanks, Flemming.
EDIT Just stumbled upon FTDNA's tests which have Y-111 and Y-700. Am I right in presuming the higher the number the better (if you have the budget for it)?
-
Yes!! but wait for a "sale" FTDNA usually has one around Fathers Day and at the end of the year with sizable reductions in some of the prices.
Kim
-
Hi Kim, thanks for the reply. Am I also right in assuming you can upgrade once you've done the test - perhaps start with 67 and then upgrade to 111?
-
I hope we are not contravening "rootschat" advertsing rules here :)
Yes,you can upgrade, but doing the test bit by bit ends up more expensive .
There is lots of advice available once you have registered a kit to test, and different "Forums"
I think you can still read the "Forums" on FTDNA but cannot post on them until you are registered.
Kim
-
I would still advise an autosomal test - most people seem to be testing with Ancestry despite them not having an (essential in my opinion), chromosome comparison tool. You can upload the raw data to other companies though there is now a cost to unlock tools such as the chromosome browser.
It depends exactly what you are hoping to achieve with your Y-DNA test.
Yes, test the highest ‘number’ - the lower ones are virtually useless as any matches are likely to be waaaaay before written records and you have no chance of finding a common ancestor, if that is what your aim is.
-
Thanks to both. Autosomal and paper trail have produced good theory of paternity. Y-DNA might add to this. Deep breath and blow dust off credit card :o
-
Good Luck :)
Kim
-
For anyone interested in Y DNA testing,FTDNA have just launched their "Fathers Day" sale
The current exchange rate is not helpful :)
Kim
-
I still haven't taken the test ;)
I was looking at prices and it seems the autosomnal dna test costs around £60, and the y-dna test about double that.
Is the database larger now for the paternal test and what would be the best company for y-dna?
Thankyou, Tom
-
I still haven't taken the test ;)
I was looking at prices and it seems the autosomnal dna test costs around £60, and the y-dna test about double that.
Is the database larger now for the paternal test and what would be the best company for y-dna?
Thankyou, Tom
From what I understand of Y-DNA tests, because so few people take them, you will be very very lucky to have an exact match. You'd be better off doing an Ancestry test which is currently on sale (from which you can extract likely Y-DNA haplogroup using free tools), and maybe also doing a 23andme test when it is next on sale, simply to maximise your matches. You can then upload both kits to MyHeritage and GEDMATCH, on the latter site you can combine the two for more accurate matching. Getting cousins on that side you are particularly interested to also test and share their results with you will also help.
-
Thankyou for that Melba!
Are there tools on the ancestry site to match with other people? Or do i have to sign up to Myheritage to get better matches?
Tom
-
Thankyou for that Melba!
Are there tools on the ancestry site to match with other people? Or do i have to sign up to Myheritage to get better matches?
Tom
Yes with an Ancestry DNA test you will (as I assume, a Brit) get between 10,000-20,000 matches. They are shown as a long scrolling list by name or username, and you can click each one for a match page which will show their tree if they have one, and you also have a shared match page which will help you work out who is related to who and from what part of your family they connect. Ancestry is on offer until the 14th March. When your test is done you can download your DNA data, and upload to this tool to get a predicted Y-DNA haplogroup.
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
If you then upload to GEDMATCH, usually match's haplogroups are listed (Y-DNA and mtDNA), but a 23andme test also lists them. 23andme will also give traits and neanderthal DNA % as standard, and you can get some other fitness and health data with the more expensive test, although the health stuff should be treated with a pinch of salt as it is only a very selective snapshot of your DNA and only tests for a small percentage of inherited disease markers in certain ethnicities. MyHeritage I don't think lists haplogroups, but they do have trees as some GEDMATCH kits do. You can also use shared matches and a chromosome browser on MyHeritage if you pay a small fee of about £20.
-
I would go with the Ancestry test. You mentioned you suspected his father was James Blanch, assuming there is no other interaction with the Blanch family other than adoption if the name Blanch starts to appear in your match list you can start looking at likely suspects.
You do need to upload or creat a tree on ancestry and not mark it private. Ancestry is getting better at helping sort out paternal and maternal names and does give hints bit you still need to check out the likelihood of matches being correct.
Test results take about 4-6 weeks to return.
Good luck
-
Thankyou for the info, will go for the ancestry test i think!
Tom
-
Hello, long time no speak.
I have just had the ancestry DNA kit bought for me for Christmas.
I'm going to send it off at the start of January. Before I receive it, is there any thing I need to do whilst I wait? I have a tree on ancestry up to my 3x and 4x great grandparents so that should help with matching I believe?
Getting excited! Even though I won't get the results till February!
Tom
-
Do you have a current Ancestry subscription? You’ll need it to get for the DNA results to be of use.
-
Hi there.
No I don't have a subscription at the moment. That's something that I forgot about over all this time haha. I will subscribe tomorrow, thankyou for the advice :)
Tom
-
Before I receive it, is there any thing I need to do whilst I wait? I have a tree on ancestry up to my 3x and 4x great grandparents so that should help with matching I believe?
Hi Tom,
A couple of suggestions/questions.
1) Make sure to link your DNA test to yourself in your tree (you should still be able to do this before you get your results), as this will give you the full benefits of the ancestry tools (i.e you should see common ancestors and thrulines).
2) You don't mention how 'wide' you have made your tree, just that you have gone backwards to to 3/4th Grandparents. Try and fill out your tree as much as possible with details on siblings families, as this can help make the identification of matches easier.
Other than that look forwards to the whole new fun game you will have trying to link up matches :-)
Richard
-
Hi there.
No I don't have a subscription at the moment. That's something that I forgot about over all this time haha. I will subscribe tomorrow, thankyou for the advice :)
Tom
Unless you need it for general research you could leave subscribing till you get your DNA results.
I got a three month free trial when with my test and asked if I could postpone taking it up till my results came through which worked out well. :)
I agree with Richard about building a wide tree. It’s probably just me, but I think virtually all my matches have come through female lines with name changes upon marriage down the genererations - something to keep in mind when you are trying to place people.
-
Hello, long time no speak.
I have just had the ancestry DNA kit bought for me for Christmas.
I'm going to send it off at the start of January. Before I receive it, is there any thing I need to do whilst I wait? I have a tree on ancestry up to my 3x and 4x great grandparents so that should help with matching I believe?
Getting excited! Even though I won't get the results till February!
Tom
Try not to subscribe to Ancestry at the full price, there are posts on RC about discount deals.
£60 for UK only and £90 for Worldwide is typical of what we can pay.
100% agree, work on your tree making it as wide and as up to date as you can.
Do check over the accuracy of your tree and then printout a Pedigree Chart to your Great Great Great Grandparent level.
On the chart at the Great Grandparent level annotate each of them starting at the top with a 1, the next one down with a 2. Continue so that each of your Great Grandparents is given a number in the 1 to 8 range.
When you get your DNA results and as you work through them you can create DNA Groups each labelled with a number in the 1 to 8 range. As you find which Great Grandparent(s) are or lead to the MRCA that you have with each of your DNA matches you assign them to the applicable numbered Group. Having them numbered makes it easier to relate to when viewing matches as the coloured Group marker will display with the first character of the Group Name and hence why I suggest using numbers rather than letters.
You then can assign the Shared DNA matches to the same numbered Group.
In practice you can then Filter the Groups which will aid in your research.
The goal should be to validate each of your ancestral lines through each of your Great Grandparents. Mark the chart at the MRCA for each of the DNA matches that you link into your Family Tree. This will give a visual representation of where on your Family Tree each of the DNA matches and you share the MRCA and where there are missing indicating marks is where potential problems may exist.
Now for the rub, only if each line in your Family Tree is validated with DNA matches and a MRCA with each match can you be confident that your Family Tree is accurate. If you have “unvalidated” Family Tree lines then there may well be an NPE event and it is time to look at Cousins and Second Cousins for them to take a DNA test. It can happen that if a “First Cousin” also takes a DNA test to help prove a Family Tree line that the results could be that the original DNA tester is not Biologically Related to the “First Cousin”.
So do be prepared for the unexpected.
Hope this helps.
-
You may also find researching DNA helpful there are books that can help.
Blaine T Bettinger has one which is easyish to follow.
For the Tech Ref on the use of DNA then Graham S Holtan is the de facto standard.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863488.0
Do read the whole of the above thread, it to may help.
-
Thank you for all the information, will go through it over the next few days.
I have a wider tree on Genes Reunited, with siblings for generations back to 3x great grandparents. I will put this into my ancestry tree sometime soon
Thank you again, Tom
-
Hi. I got my DNA test results on Thursday. Mostly it was what I expected, about 70% England, 12% Germanic Europe. I did get 4% Cornwall, which was interesting as i don't have any ancestors from the West Country.
I suppose it's a time of waiting to see if can find my 3x Great grandfather. I have a few matches with people from Norfolk-Suffolk border with names i haven't got in my tree, so there might be a chance that i will find him through them.
Tom
-
Look at the matches that you share the highest cms with. Don’t worry about the ethnicity percentages - they’re only a rough guide, and it’ll send you mad looking for that 4%.
Although surnames in common are big clues, don’t discount unfamiliar surnames. Connections could come down through the female line with surnames changed upon marriage. I’d estimate that this is the case for the majority of my higher matches.
Good luck.
-
Hi. I got my DNA test results on Thursday. Mostly it was what I expected, about 70% England, 12% Germanic Europe. I did get 4% Cornwall, which was interesting as i don't have any ancestors from the West Country.
I suppose it's a time of waiting to see if can find my 3x Great grandfather. I have a few matches with people from Norfolk-Suffolk border with names i haven't got in my tree, so there might be a chance that i will find him through them.
Tom
Was your test an atDNA?
This thread is about yDNA which is the male to male test and Admixture results are usually not reported, Haplogroup is, and the level of reporting is based on the choice of yDNA test that was made.
In your case if t was an atDNA test that you took i.e. Ancestry, My Heritage, 23&Me then take the Admixture results with a bag of salt.
If you are aa bit lost in the minefield that is DNA do buy the book that I wrote about in my previous comment, it will help.