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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: _craigM_ on Friday 19 January 18 21:32 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have any info on a Mary McQuilter.
Born around 1843, she is listed in the 1861 and 1871 Scotland census.
She had children with her surname.
Thanks in advance.
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What is her marital status on the censuses - single/married or widowed? She was in the WH in 1871 but no children shown with her
If McQuilter was her maiden name - have you found her on the 1851 census?
Did she marry after 1871? Downloading a copy of either her marriage or death cert from Scotlands People will give you her parents names and mothers maiden name
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
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This is where it gets interesting and why its been difficult finding info.
My blood relative Neil Thomson was having an affair with her around 1860. They had an illegitimate child Elizabeth - registered as Elizabeth McQuilter (my great, great, great Grandmother).
Mary had further children with the surname McQuilter so I only assume (and because of the affair) she was married to a Mr?? McQuilter.
Neil Married someone else in March 1862. Soon after this marriage, Mary turns up at Neil and his wife's residence and presents them with Elizabeth. Neil and wife raise her as there own and she takes Thomson as her surname.
That's all I know so far.
Know were I can get any more info? (preferably without having to pay for it). Links?
Regards
Craig
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Her marital status will be shown on the census image which is available on Scotlands People
The 1851 has a Mary McQuilter aged 15 living as a boarder in Renfrewshire but that would put her birthyear at 1836
There is an 1861 entry for Renfrew born 1844 Ireland and living with parents Andrew and Catherine. A Katrina Richards has notified a mis-transcription and refers to an 1871 entry and childrens surnames
Know were I can get any more info? (preferably without having to pay for it). Links?
Link shown above - Scotlands People is not a free site and you have to buy credits to download any certs. The index is free to search
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Thanks Carole.
Joined that site and bought credits. I have the image of the birth registered. Hard to read. But getting somewhere now.
The trail could be expensive !!
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could she be the same Mary Mcquilter in the 1871 census as an inmate at Burgh Poorhouse and Asylum, New Sneddon Street, Paisley?
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1871 details shown in reply 1
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Thanks Carole.
in the 1881 census there are 2 Mcquilter children shown at the same poorhouse aged 1 and 4 but no mother with same surname and don't see any sign of birth certificates.
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Check for a record in the Paisley Poor Law applicants,
https://libcat.renfrewshire.gov.uk/iguana/www.main.cls?surl=PoorLaw
Skoosh.
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There are these 3 births indexed on FS to mother Mary McQuilter in the Refrewshire area:
Elizabeth 1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZG-3HY
Martha 1863 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZG-35M
David 1866 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F73R-P4F
Martha b 1863 looks to have died in 1865 in the same parish of her birth.
In the same parish, around the same time, an Andrew McQuilter and wife Mary Anne Monaghan were also having children in the 1860s such as Elizabeth https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZG-3H1 Maybe Andrew was connected (a brother looks likely looking at the 1861 census family entry?) to Mary? His marriage would have his parents' details and witnesses' names that may help https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQQ-4ZW
Looking at the index of the births of the children to Mary in the 1860s, certainly looks like this was her maiden name not married name as this is the surname that is recorded for births for women.
Monica
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Ive got hold of the marriage cert. and Andrew McQuilter and wife Mary Anne Monaghan were married 0n 26th Sept 1862 in Houston & Killellan.
Also have a birth cert for Elizabeth, born 16 April 1861. Listed as Illegitimate. My 4 times removed Grandfather (Neil Thomson) had an affair with Mary Anne in 1860 - so she must have been "dating" Andrew at this time for Elizabeth to take the McQuilter surname?? I'm surprised she even married having had Elizabeth.
Neil married Sarah Hemphill (born 1836) on 22 March 1862. Sarah was pregnant at that time with Francis. They lived at 25 Rutherglen Lane, Govan, Glasgow for 3 months. Around this time, Elizabeth McQuilter was dropped off at their place and Neil and Sarah raise her under the surname Thomson.
I'm sure Sarah would have been surprised with the new family addition.
On 18 August 1866, Neil, Elizabeth and new daughter Mary Irvine travel to NZ.
Sarah stays to look after her Dad who dies in September and Sarah ends up in the poorhouse. Seems this was a common place to hang out !! At this time, Sarah had son Neil (who dies) and daughter Ann is born. After 9 months in the poorhouse, Sarah and Ann depart for NZ.
Its a pretty dysfunctional family - in fact, Elizabeth later has a child by Neil.
I'm now looking for Neils and Mary's roots (as these are direct bloodlines). Neils ancestors were the MacThomas's who lived near Renfrew.
Any other help greatly appreciated.
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Craig, I think Mary McQuilter is likely sister to Andrew McQuilter, not wife. The births of children show mother with her maiden name nor married surname.
You mentioned you had the 1861 census with both children Andrew and Mary in the household?
Andrew Mc Quelter 40 quarryman b. Ireland
Catherine Mc Quelter 39 b. Ireland
Ellen Mc Quelter 19 b. Ireland
Mary Mc Quelter 17 b. Ireland
Andrew Mc Quelter 15 b. Ireland
Elisabeth Mc Quelter 9 b. Gourock, Renfrew
Address: Bridge Street, Houston and Killellan
I can't see the family easily in 1851. They were certainly in Scotland by the time of Elizabeth's birth c. 1852.
Monica
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If you, I would follow up on Skoosh's suggestion...
Check for a record in the Paisley Poor Law applicants,
https://libcat.renfrewshire.gov.uk/iguana/www.main.cls?surl=PoorLaw
Skoosh.
I think there are entries there for both Mary McQuilter in at least 1867 and also her possible sister in law, Mary Ann McQuilter, wife to Andrew. This is just an index and you would use these refs to request more copies of the detailed records. Poor relief applications can contain the most detailed of personal info that you are unlikely to find elsewhere. If it is the correct entry for Mary, there should be mention there I would think of her children, including your Elizabeth hopefully.
Certainly worth following up further directly.
Additonal details here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785056.0
Monica
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Monica,
Is the difference in surnames significant? McQuilter vs. McQuelter
I think they may be a different family?
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Don't worry about spelling variations. At that time, with an overwhelming illiterate population, spellings were very fluid and not rigid as we know them today.
Monica
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I wonder what happened to Mary McQuilter after the entry in the 1871 census? Couldn't easily see a marriage or death for her on the indexes on Scotlands People.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Ive found a second source with all of the family (6) as you posted. The surname used is McQuilter so yes there does seem to be some variation with spelling. I think this is the right trail and I'm working on it.
Bridge st. where they lived then, was only about 15km from Neil Thomson - who knows they could have met at a common work place.
Don't know what happened to Mary yet but when I find out will let you know. I do know that she subsequently had more children, all registered with the surname McQuilter.
Would this be normal in those days if she was unmarried?
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Given Mary looks to have been unmarried, not surprinsing that her children's births were registered under her maiden name of McQuilter.
As a matter of law, if a reputed father acknowledged paternity, he would also need to attend the registration of the child's birth and consent to his details being included on the birth registration. The cert would clearly show that the birth was illegitimate still though and parents unmarried.
What other children did Mary have after the birth of son David in 1866?
Monica
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I think you mentioned you have Elizabeth's 1861 birth cert? If so, what was the address for the birth?
Monica
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Didn't get much on David - 1881 Scotland Census.
Is that Inmate I see?
Would this be the poor house?
Elizabeth's birth cert says Houston but I cant quite read the rest.
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Pity that Elizabeth's birth address shows just as Houston. There was always the chance that it would have included a more specific address to match the one where the family showed in 1861 (Bridge Street, Houston).
I can't see David in 1881. Do you mean 1871? He does show at the Poorhouse in Paisley in 1871, see www.workhouses.org.uk/Paisley/
Monica
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Sorry my bad - yes 1871.
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You should consider following up on the poor relief application notes that Skoosh linked for you.
This is the one I thought would be for Mary McQuilter:
McQUILTER, Mary
Date 1867
Refs 11 14493 25
Residence Houston
Birth Place Ireland
Page 2752
There are also multiple applications for Mary Ann Monaghan/McQuilter, wife of Andrew Jnr.
Monica
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Have you looked for deaths for Andrew Snr and wife Catherine?
I thought these might be their indexed death entries:
Andrew MCQUILTER, age 59 in 1879. Death in Greenock New or Middle, Renfrewshire
Catherine MCQUILTER/MCGOUKEN, age not indexed in 1862. Death in Houston and Killellan
See from others' research into these family lines that mother Catherine's maiden name likely has variants such as MCGOWTHRIE.
Monica
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Craig -- i have quite a bit of info on neil Thomson, he is my wife Sharon's 3rd great grandfather.
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she must have been "dating" Andrew at this time for Elizabeth to take the McQuilter surname??
No.
The only way that a father's name would be on an original birth certificate is if the father accompanied the mother to the registrar's when she went to register the child, and signed the register along with her. Even if the entire parish, including the registrar, knew exactly who the father was, he could not be named on the certificate if he did not do so at the time.
Unless the woman was lying, her name on the birth certificate will always include her maiden surname. If there is no other surname, then that is her own maiden surname.
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Don't know what happened to Mary yet but when I find out will let you know. I do know that she subsequently had more children, all registered with the surname McQuilter.
Would this be normal in those days if she was unmarried?
Yes. Standard practice.
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Can I ask how you have come to the decision that Neil Thomson is Elizabeth's father? He did not attend the registration of Elizabeth's birth and, having checked the Scottish Indexes site, there appears to have been no Court case even started and, indeed, as no Court case there is no RCE on the above birth entry stating that he is the father. In those times, people often took in other people's children but that does not necessarily mean that they are even related!
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It seems many researchers came to this conclusion. Perhaps some had family knowledge. I have seen no clear evidence attributable to Neil Thomson. The fact that he arrived by ship in NZ and was with Elizabeth could have many reasons.
However, there is no reason to believe that Neil Thomsons wife Sarah Hemphill would lie. She stated in court in 1890 that he had fathered a child by another woman in Scotland and that she helped bring that child up in Scotland and New Zealand. Also in court in 1890 she stated under oath that Thomson had fathered his own daughters child (Elizabeth Thomson had a child when around 14-15 years old). This was just before Thomson went back to Scotland where he died a few months later.
There are many researchers closer in terms of family ties then myself, it would be interesting to find out if anyone has definitive evidence. I have tried to contact a number of researchers but have no success contacting them and many last had Rootsweb or other activity a long time ago. Many of these researchers have published work stating he is Elizabeths father.
So there is evidence pointing to him as father. I see the Sarah Hemphill statements as fairly compelling evidence. There is a Scottish site that searches for fathers of illegitimate children. They correctly identified the father one of Mary McQuilters other children Martha, but then that father is easily found in newspaper articles of the time where Mary names him. its possible the same exists for Thomson, but I haven't found it. I'm going to get that site to do some searches shoon.
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Sadly, speaking as a Clerk of Court for over 20 years, what is said in Court under Oath is not necessarily true :( Have you tried DNA? The fact that he had a child with Elizabeth even makes me feel it is more likely that she wasn't his child (and yes, I know that incest could have taken place as it still happens today sadly :( )
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However, there is no reason to believe that Neil Thomsons wife Sarah Hemphill would lie.
Why not? Was she suing for divorce, or for some other reason that would give her an incentive to paint him as black as possible?
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Hi Don,
Are you still around?
Any new info on Mary McQuilter?
With winter coming, I'll have some time to research some more.....
Regards
Craig
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The fact that he arrived by ship in NZ and was with Elizabeth could have many reasons.
However, there is no reason to believe that Neil Thomsons wife Sarah Hemphill would lie. She stated in court in 1890 that he had fathered a child by another woman in Scotland and that she helped bring that child up in Scotland and New Zealand. Also in court in 1890 she stated under oath that Thomson had fathered his own daughters child (Elizabeth Thomson had a child when around 14-15 years old). This was just before Thomson went back to Scotland where he died a few months later.
There are many researchers closer in terms of family ties then myself, it would be interesting to find out if anyone has definitive evidence. I have tried to contact a number of researchers but have no success contacting them and many last had Rootsweb or other activity a long time ago. Many of these researchers have published work stating he is Elizabeths father.
So there is evidence pointing to him as father.
I may have missed this but do you have a passenger list with Elizabeth recorded as daughter of Neil & who does Elizabeth name as her father on her marriage (if she married)?
Annie
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Hi, Elizabeth and Neil arrived on the Strathallan into Napier on 2nd Dec 1866. The newspaper passenger list incorrectly also includes his wife Sarah Hemphill and son Neil. She stayed back in Scotland with their baby son Neil who dies there, and she is pregnant with their daughter who is born in the poor house (birth and death certificates show this is Neils wife and children). Sarah and the daughter Anne appear to arrive on the ship Wild Duck in dec 1867 to Wellington, and then to Napier aboard the Egmont. This is described in Sarahs obituary in 1924 (it states she arrived here after Neil, but the ship name is incorrectly listed as Shy Duck, Sarah and Anne Thompson do arrive on Wild Duck according to newspaper passengers list). The newspaper listing of passengers shows it is likely that daughter Mary was also on the Strathallan -- its lists Neil, Elizabeth, Sarah, Mary, Neil in that order.
I havent found the original passenger list, just the newspaper one.
Somewhere here I have the cert, will update this when I find it.
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Attached is marriage cert of elizabeth thompson and thomas goodgame.
No attempt is made to suggest Neil Thomson is not her father. Her mother is named as Mary McWater, which is one of the variations I noted for McQuilter when researching Scottish records.
I havent yet found a reason to think that Neil Thomson and Mary McQuilter are not Elizabeths parents.
Note also that her birthdate is the only one on ScotlandsPeople with a birth date of Elizabeth's birth, illegitimate, and in Houston where the marriage cert says she is from.