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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: DavidJP on Friday 10 November 17 19:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I have a question regarding the 1939 Register and am hoping that someone may be able to assist/answer it.
My gt gt aunt Emmeline Gertrude Victoria Bauer (1887-1944) is believed to have been in an institution of some description at the time that the 1939 register was compiled/taken.
My question is: Did they include institutions when the 1939 register was taken?
The question is asked as I have not been able to locate her as yet in the 1939 register. I am not asking for a look up as I am well aware that this is not allowed. I am just trying to get some idea as to why I cannot locate her.
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David
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No death showing for that name in 1944 - where did she die?
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Hi CaroleW,
No death showing for that name in 1944 - where did she die?
Uxbridge Registration District as Bower, Emmeline G V in June Qtr 1944.
She is buried in a family grave in St Pancras Cemetery, Camden, London, Middlesex.
Kind regards
David
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My question is: Did they include institutions when the 1939 register was taken?
Yes.
The standard research guide is here ...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
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Hi Bookbox,
Many thanks for that, very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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Was she born 15 June 1887?
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy,
She was born 15th Feb 1887.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Are her parents Francis and Eleanor?
If so she is in two of the three censuses going by her second name of Gertrude.
Have you looked for a Gertrude in the1939? If I have the correct censuses for her, it seems that she went by her second name on some of the records.
Kind Regards
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Hi Cell,
Her parents were indeed Francis & Eleanor. She did indeed it seems go by the name of Gertrude on some records.
I have looked for her under Gertrude & any other combination of her name that I can think of as well. Having a foreign surname (German surname in this instance!) doesn't help matters as it is frequently transcribed incorrectly! ;D
My thanks for your assistance, very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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Did she live in Sydney Street, Chelsea in 1922-1925 as Gertrude Victoria Bowyer?
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Hi Gadget,
The honest answer is I have absolutely no idea whatsoever where she would be in 1922-1925, or at any time after 1911 until her death in 1944 for that matter.
She has always been a bit of a mystery. For example her mother's will dated 23rd Feb 1931 (she died just over 2 months later) states:
"the sum of seven hundred pounds upon trust to invest the same and to apply the net annual income from time to time arising therefrom for the maintenance and benefit of my daughter Gertrude during her life". It further adds that after the death of Gertrude the same income should be used to pay for the funeral expenses. The money was to be invested & looked after by my great grandfather & my other gt gt aunt.
Like I say, rather strange and I haven't been able to determine what that was all about in the will or what she was doing/where she was between 1911 & 1944.
Kind regards
David
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From that will David, it does rather sound as if she needed to be taken care of, doesn't it and her mother wasn't expecting her to marry.
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Hi Jan,
From that will David, it does rather sound as if she needed to be taken care of, doesn't it and her mother wasn't expecting her to marry.
Yes, that's exactly the way I read it as well!
I have wondered for quite some while now, whether getting gt gt aunts 1944 death cert, might not be the next thing to do. Then see if that can help to track back from there if that makes sense!? ;D By that I mean that if she perhaps died in an institution then that would perhaps hopefully give a starting point to searching institutional records if any exist. Of course I am aware that with these types of records they are quite often closed for a certain number of years. Still the death cert might give a start!
Kind rergards
David
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Check out Gertrude Barter who has the same dob as you gg aunt. Living in Reading, Berks.
Surname misheard or incorrectly deciphered perhaps?
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Might be worth getting the certificate now while the GRO are still doing their on line service for £6 rather than the usual paper versions of £9.50.
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From that will David, it does rather sound as if she needed to be taken care of, doesn't it and her mother wasn't expecting her to marry.
I think you are reading too much into the will, to me it is wording that commonly used when a parent is ensuring if a daughter gets married her husband does not tke control or waste the money.
Do any of the census entries show any disability?
Could she have worked in an institution?
Cheers
Guy
PS don't forget a school is an institution, the term was commonly used for schools by older generations. If this has been passed down through the family the meaning could have become confused.
G
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Check out Gertrude Barter who has the same dob as you gg aunt. Living in Reading, Berks.
I think that may be Gertrude BAXTER, died 1966 aged 79. :-\
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If she was in an institution and her death was registered in Uxbridge, she 'may' have been at Hanwell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanwell_Asylum
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Hi all,
Girl Guide, many thanks for that, much appreciated. I will keep it on file although as Geoff-E suggests it could be the Gertrude Baxter that he mentions.
Jan, many thanks for that, I hadn't realised that they were running another PDF pilot service. The full price is £9.25 (you say £9.50) for a cert I thought or have they put it up again recently? Anyhow, that aside I have taken advantage of the cheaper option & ordered the cert on PDF & will post the results when I receive it! ;D
Guy, many thanks for that suggestion, much appreciated. To be honest, I'm not sure which it is either way! No disabilities shown on census as far as I recall, no occupation known of either. As stated before I have been unable to find any record of her between 1911 & 1944.
Geoff-E, many thanks for that, much appreciated.
Dawnsh, Many thanks for the suggestion of institution & link. Most interesting & much appreciated.
I will hopefully know a bit more or not as the case may be when I receive the certificate! So watch this space! ;D
My thanks again for assistance so far, very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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Hi all,
I have today received the death certificate of my gt gt aunt Emmeline Gertrude Victoria Bauer/Bower & it makes for rather sad reading.
She passed away on 7th June 1944 at St Bernards Hospital, Norwood, Southall U D.
Rank or Profession shows her to be 'An inmate formerly a dispenser'.
Cause of death is shown as follows:
'Asphyxia due to suffocation caused by food becoming lodged in mouth oesophagus & air passages. Deceased a certified mental patient. Accidental death. PM.'
Description of informant column has: Certificate received from Harold G Broadbridge Coroner for West Middlesex. Inquest held 13th June 1944.
Although I have always wondered what happened to her & where she ended up, this has shocked me slightly, I cannot begin to imagine what she went through & what an unpleasant way to go as well.
Of course now I want to know more. Although dawnsh as it turns out was absolutely right as to where she was. The old Hanwell Asylum was known as St Bernards Hospital by the time of her death. Would I be able to find anything as regards the inquest? Any patient records etc?
Would she also be down as just initials on the 1939 register?
Many thanks in advance.
David
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I wonder if there is any information here?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/64bbd4e5-0c07-448c-879c-e02ccc016b0d
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Hi Jan,
Many thanks for that, much appreciated.
Have had a quick look at the link & have seen 2 or 3 sets of possible records already! ;D Those being either at the Greater London Record Office or the Metropolitan Archives. Looks like I'm going to be planning at least a couple of trips to London in the very near future! ;D
My thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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The full catalogue listing can be accessed the by searching the LMA catalogue but it isn't working properly at the moment :-\
the reference is H11/HLL
They most probably do have some records but they will be closed under the 100 year rule
Your best bet would be to contact them before you make a visit to see what can be accessed.
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the Greater London Record Office and the LMA are now one and the same.
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Hi dawnsh,
Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.
Many thanks for the info supplied in both replies, very useful indeed & much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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With regards to Asylum Records I have posted a few pages to the following site
http://www.anguline.co.uk/SLA/Page%20205.jpg
For more pages change the last number to either 6, 7, 8 or the last two numbers to 12
Cheers
Guy
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Would she also be down as just initials on the 1939 register?
I have found a couple of people in my one-name study in a Surrey asylum in 1939 with their names in full. It makes sense, as without such a record, they would not have been able to access anything official should they leave the institution.
St. Bernard's Hospital is in the Register; I found a Gertrude Manley there when searching for your relative.
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Would she also be down as just initials on the 1939 register?
I have found a couple of people in my one-name study in a Surrey asylum in 1939 with their names in full. It makes sense, as without such a record, they would not have been able to access anything official should they leave the institution.
St. Bernard's Hospital is in the Register; I found a Gertrude Manley there when searching for your relative.
Exactly the 1939 national Registration was the database to produce Identity Cards and Ration Books neither of which would have been any use without the full name; surname and forenames (as required on the schedule).
Cheers
Guy
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Saint Bernards comes under Southall MB, code BPCB
the TNA refs start 0882i from page 002, 0882j from page 002, 0882k from page 002, 0882l from page 002
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Hi Guy, andrewalston & Dawnsh,
Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.
Guy, Many thanks for Asylum Records Info & link, much appreciated.
andrewalston, many thanks for 1939 Register info re St Bernard's Hospital, much appreciated, I have also noted the Gertrude Manley that you found also.
Dawnsh, many thanks for St Bernard's 1939 reference info, much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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Hi all,
A short update to the story of my gt gt aunt Emmeline Gertrude Victoria Bauer/Bower.
With the recent release of the 1921 Census, I was eventually able to locate her, under just her initials E G V B and she was in the Hanwell Mental Hospital, Southall, which became St Bernard's Hospital in 1937. So its now known that she was in the hospital for at least 23 years until her death there in 1944.
The 1921 census also showed her to be an inmate and occupation (probably former) as that of dispenser, both a match for the details upon her death certificate.
This suggests almost certainly that she should therefore be showing at the hospital in 1939. I shall have to comb through the 1939 register again, once more using the TNA references kindly posted by dawnsh to see if I can find her!
This new information also helps to give a time frame for her going into the hospital, namely sometime between 1911 & 1921.
As ever with family history, more questions than answers! ;D
Kind regards
David
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If you are using Ancestry she is Gertrude B BOWLER born 1887, Dispenser. Image shows Gertrude V BOWER.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
Very many thanks indeed for your reply, much appreciated.
Brilliant! Many thanks for finding that on Ancestry, much appreciated.
Unfortunately I don't have access to Ancestry at the moment! However, using the info that you have provided in your post, I have managed to locate her at last on FindMyPast! She is under Gertrude K BOWEN born 1887, an inmate, Dispenser. Image clearly shows Gertrude V Bower as you found.
My grateful thanks again, not being able to locate her in 1939 had been bugging me for some considerable time!
Kind regards
David