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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: GINLOVER on Friday 03 November 17 20:21 GMT (UK)

Title: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Friday 03 November 17 20:21 GMT (UK)
Hello there,

I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light on who would be my 3x great grandfather Frank Elliott.
I have found some information, but it's driving me slight loopy looking for more.

I believe that he was born in 1832, and was a foundling left on the doorstep of the Taylor family in Gateshead. I have found this information on-line and he is linked to the Elliott's of Birtley folk music family. From what I can find he was registered in census' as a Taylor but then reverted to Elliott later creating the Elliott family. I have read he had a tag around his neck when he was found on the door step giving him the name Frank Elliott. He died around 1903, married a lady called Margaret (?surname) and his son Lancelot was my 2x great grandfather.

There is some family rumour/mystery that he was the illegitimate son of a Lord of the North East of England too, I'm very curious as to if this is true.

Thanks in advance,
GinLover.  ;)

Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: groom on Friday 03 November 17 20:31 GMT (UK)
Quote
He died around 1903, married a lady called Margret (?surname) and his son Lancelot was my 2x great grandfather.


Using the GRO index and checking Lancelot and some of his siblings' births, Margaret's maiden name was RIDLEY

Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Friday 03 November 17 21:11 GMT (UK)
He married as Taylor it seems

Francis Taylor
Marriage date   25 Oct 1851
Marriage place   Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set   England Marriages 1538-1973

Cas

Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 03 November 17 21:24 GMT (UK)
If he was a foundling with only a name tag, saying his name was "Frank Elliot", how do you know he was related to the "Elliots of Birtley, musical family?" I find it a little odd that a child left on someone's doorstep would have been named?

If his given name was Frank you also might like to consider searching for him as "Frances".

What is the source for the information you have about Frank being a foundling?

Unless he was named in a will as illegitmate son of said Lord, I'm not sure if it will be possible to prove that story. I think lots of stories were concocted to cover illegitimacy - and often family stories tend to play up this kind of thing. It sounds mrore acceptable to say an illegitimate ancestor was a product of the local Gentry and a servant than the product of a roll in the hay with a farm boy. (Though of course both are possible.  ;) )  :) It could be worth investigating DNA testing.

It could also be worth considering that Frank was the child of the Taylors, but for some reason changed his surname to Elliot?

These are just a few thoughts from a superficial reading of your question, and without looking further into the family, so may or may not be relevant.  :)
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 03 November 17 21:28 GMT (UK)
Hi all, in 1851 he is Francis Elliot 19 b NK Durham with Ridley family in Chester Le Street
Census Ref HO107/2394/636/12
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: groom on Friday 03 November 17 21:41 GMT (UK)
Hi all, in 1851 he is Francis Elliot 19 b NK Durham with Ridley family in Chester Le Street
Census Ref HO107/2394/636/12
Keyboard86

Strange that he was calling himself Elliot in that census yet a few months later married as Taylor. He would have been under 21, could that have anything to do with it i.e had to have the Taylor's permission?
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 03 November 17 21:44 GMT (UK)
The only Francis possible I could locate in 1841 was:-

Margaret Taylor 22
William 20
Grace 18
Francis 9 Not born in county
Residing at Wrekenton, Gateshead
Census Ref HO107/296/ 12/28 / 10
Keyboard86

EDIT at same address a Grace Taylor 57
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: groom on Friday 03 November 17 21:44 GMT (UK)
Interesting in 1871 he is down as having been born in Surrey.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 03 November 17 22:26 GMT (UK)
Am dipping in and out of this with distractions so apologies if I get anything wrong, but ....

How many instances are there of him being "Elliot" as opposed to Taylor? (Wondering if a census error)

Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: groom on Friday 03 November 17 22:28 GMT (UK)
I believe he is Elliott on every census and died as Elliott, but married as Taylor.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Saturday 04 November 17 00:36 GMT (UK)
Thank you all for the messages  :)

This is what I found regarding the Taylor/Elliott surname (should have put with original posting, sorry):

"My great grandfather was indeed a foundling.  He was left on the doorstep of a family named Taylor in Gateshead with a tag around his neck which read: 'My name is Frank Elliott.  Please look after me.'"

The source that I found it on was this website: http://www.selectsurnames2.com/elliott.html

I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.

Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!


p.s I'm in Canada with an 8hour time difference so will be on here at odd times!
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Saturday 04 November 17 00:44 GMT (UK)
If he was a foundling with only a name tag, saying his name was "Frank Elliot", how do you know he was related to the "Elliots of Birtley, musical family?" I find it a little odd that a child left on someone's doorstep would have been named?

If his given name was Frank you also might like to consider searching for him as "Frances".

What is the source for the information you have about Frank being a foundling?

Unless he was named in a will as illegitmate son of said Lord, I'm not sure if it will be possible to prove that story. I think lots of stories were concocted to cover illegitimacy - and often family stories tend to play up this kind of thing. It sounds mrore acceptable to say an illegitimate ancestor was a product of the local Gentry and a servant than the product of a roll in the hay with a farm boy. (Though of course both are possible.  ;) )  :) It could be worth investigating DNA testing.

It could also be worth considering that Frank was the child of the Taylors, but for some reason changed his surname to Elliot?

These are just a few thoughts from a superficial reading of your question, and without looking further into the family, so may or may not be relevant.  :)


DNA testing has crossed my mind a few times over recent weeks. The name told to me was Ravensworth, which I know is the Liddell's thanks to Google  ;)
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 04 November 17 11:10 GMT (UK)
This is what I found regarding the Taylor/Elliott surname (should have put with original posting, sorry):

"My great grandfather was indeed a foundling.  He was left on the doorstep of a family named Taylor in Gateshead with a tag around his neck which read: 'My name is Frank Elliott.  Please look after me.'"

The source that I found it on was this website: http://www.selectsurnames2.com/elliott.html


That site has a contact address  http://www.selectsurnames2.com/feedback.html.  Have you tried contacting the site owner to see if he can put you in touch with the descendant who says that, to see what information she may (or may not ) have? I'm not disputing what she is saying but 'family lore' though it may have started off with a grain of truth, oft repeated has a tendency to be embellished over the years.

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 04 November 17 11:57 GMT (UK)
Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death:


Shields Daily Gazette 27 June 1903
page 5, col 6

DEATH OF MR FRANK ELLIOTT - The death took place yesterday at Birtley, of Mr Frank Elliott, a well-known Durham miner. Mr Elliott was born at Breckon Beds, near Low Fell Railway Station, and commenced work in the pit before he was ten years of age. Though robbed of the present day facilities for securing a good education, he found opportunities for schooling himself in the three “R’s”, and upon attaining manhood he was regarded as a leader amongst his fellows, being warmly appreciated for the fine intelligence, honesty, and straightforwardness he ever displayed in anything that affected their interests in the mining industry. Deceased was a skilful miner, and that he had a thorough knowledge of his craft was early demonstrated by his appointment as master shifter at Springwell colliery where he remained nine years. Subsequently he acted in a similar capacity at Harraton, one of Lord Durham’s collieries for 27 years. Four years ago, he went to live in well earned retirement at Birtley with his son, where his death occurred yesterday at the age of 72, after a fortnight’s illness. He leaves five daughters and four sons, all of whom are married.

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 04 November 17 12:06 GMT (UK)
He married as Taylor it seems

Francis Taylor
Marriage date   25 Oct 1851
Marriage place   Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set   England Marriages 1538-1973

Cas

It would be interesting to know who he says his father is.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: JenB on Saturday 04 November 17 12:46 GMT (UK)
Mr Elliott was born at Breckon Beds, near Low Fell Railway Station,

Just adding a link to show the the location  :)
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.9320&lon=-1.6077&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: JenB on Saturday 04 November 17 13:15 GMT (UK)
I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.

Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!

There is a book about this family http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/elliotts.htm
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 04 November 17 15:20 GMT (UK)
A very interesting and quite moving film about Jack, Frank's grandson is on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4EkHL_zUms

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: groom on Saturday 04 November 17 17:15 GMT (UK)
Quote
Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death

What a lovely descriptive word, never heard it before.

Strange that the obituary doesn't mention he was a foundling but does give a place of birth.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: JenB on Saturday 04 November 17 17:35 GMT (UK)
Boo is an excellent firkler, mainly on the Northumberland and Durham Boards  :)
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 04 November 17 18:05 GMT (UK)
Hi again, where is he in 1901 anyone?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Saturday 04 November 17 18:08 GMT (UK)
I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.

Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!

There is a book about this family http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/elliotts.htm


Thank you for all the replies! Looks like I have a few things to do today, including ordering the book :-)

I looked at the map link, and the location given as his birth in the death announcement is not far from Ravensworth Castle. Thanks for the firkle! ;-)

Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video, and email the website owner and see if they have any connections. Might be also worth another email to my Great Aunt!

Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Saturday 04 November 17 18:21 GMT (UK)
Hi again, where is he in 1901 anyone?
Keyboard86

I have found him in 1901 living with his son, Frank, in Birtley.

Name   Frank Elliott
Event Type   Census
Event Date   31 Mar 1901
Event Place   Birtley, Durham, England
County   Durham
Civil Parish   Birtley
Ecclesiastical Parish   St John The Evangelist
Sub-District   Harraton
Registration District   Chester Le Street
Residence Note   Frank Place
Gender   Male
Age   69
Occupation   RETIRED COALMINER
Relationship to Head of Household   Father
Birth Year (Estimated)   1832
Birthplace   Birtley, Durham
Schedule Type   126
Page Number   19

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Afrank~%20%2Bsurname%3AElliott~%20%2Bresidence_place%3ABirtley~%20%2Brelationship_to_head%3AFather&collection_id=1888129
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 04 November 17 18:29 GMT (UK)
 ;D Did'nt scroll down the page!!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 04 November 17 20:27 GMT (UK)
Quote
Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death

What a lovely descriptive word, never heard it before.

Strange that the obituary doesn't mention he was a foundling but does give a place of birth.

Never really thought about it before, but I stuck 'firkle' into Google and, apparently, its classed as a new word! Which is strange as I have been using it for as long as I can remember (and I am knocking on a bit!) :-)

As for the birthplace in the obit, like parish registers , info on death certs etc etc the info is as given (to the best of their knowledge) by the person who was asked. It is never writ in stone.

As my Granda (fount of all knowledge in my life) was  heard to say - it says Persil on the side of our buses, but they don't take in washing :-) I always take the info given and see if I can check it out.

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 04 November 17 20:34 GMT (UK)

Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video

No idea if you are first, second or even third generation Canadian - but shout out if you need subtitles!
(the North Eastern accent puzzles my Surrey- south east of England - friends, not sure how it translates into Canadian)
:-)

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Saturday 04 November 17 22:22 GMT (UK)

Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video

No idea if you are first, second or even third generation Canadian - but shout out if you need subtitles!
(the North Eastern accent puzzles my Surrey- south east of England - friends, not sure how it translates into Canadian)
:-)

Boo

Only been here for 6yrs and I struggle with the British accents, will have to clean my ears out before I watch it! ;-)

I have come across this, and its gone from doorstep to ditch: https://media.smithsonianfolkways.org/liner_notes/folkways/FW03565.pdf

''Jack and Reece Elliott can only trace their family back to their peternal grandfather who, as a infant, was found abandaned in a ditch with a slip of paper bearing the name "Elliott" pinned on him."

I spoke with my mother today who remembers meeting Dorren Elliott! Rough math and she would now be in her 90's if she is living.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 05 November 17 09:43 GMT (UK)
A little more firkling shows that there was a death notice for Frank in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_DUNS on 27th June 1903 which will probably give details of when and where he was buried - if you don't already have that info.
I can't help with that as the Chronicle not yet in the database I have access to for 1903 and am too far away to nip to the library, but a request for a look up may find someone who is going to the library and has time to transcribe it for you.

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 05 November 17 13:28 GMT (UK)
EVENING CHRONICLE - Saturday June 27, 1903
'ELLIOT.-1. Frank Place, Birtley, at the residence of his son Frank, on 26th inst., Frank Elliot, aged 72, the beloved husband of the late Margaret Elliot.  To be interred at Birtley on Sunday at 3 pm.  All friends kindly invited.'

Best Wishes :)
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 05 November 17 13:42 GMT (UK)
 that's super - and super fast too!
I am impressed as ever by your kindness and ability to seemingly 'beam up' to the Library!

So now we know what the Chronicle said and where he is buried :-)

Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Sunday 05 November 17 16:57 GMT (UK)
EVENING CHRONICLE - Saturday June 27, 1903
'ELLIOT.-1. Frank Place, Birtley, at the residence of his son Frank, on 26th inst., Frank Elliot, aged 72, the beloved husband of the late Margaret Elliot.  To be interred at Birtley on Sunday at 3 pm.  All friends kindly invited.'

Best Wishes :)

Thank you so very much for this.

So, last night I emailed Pete Wood the author who wrote the book on the Elliott's of Birtley, and he replied speedily. He told me this; 'He was left at the door of a public house wrapped in expensive clothes, and was taken in by the landlady, who was called Taylor. ' and that there is more in the book. So, now I will be checking the mail 6 times a day waiting for the book ;-)

He is also in touch with Doreen Elliott, who will be 90 next month and has passed on my details to her.

Ginlover
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 05 November 17 22:35 GMT (UK)
I think you might need a male descendant of Frank and a male Liddell to agree to a yDNA test to see how the results stack up to try to prove your theory.  :-\

Interesting story but without any kind of proof it is all just hearsay ... after all you are talking about a birth around 1832, and unless there are contemporary reports of Frank being abandoned as a baby, you won't know if there is any truth in the foundling story.

Proving his parentage is a whole other matter ... there are a multitude of possible scenarios.

I know DNA is not the be-all and end-all, but it might give you some clues.  :-\
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Tuesday 07 November 17 22:43 GMT (UK)
He married as Taylor it seems

Francis Taylor
Marriage date   25 Oct 1851
Marriage place   Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set   England Marriages 1538-1973

Cas

It would be interesting to know who he says his father is.

I went to the local LDS Family history centre today and looked this up. He didn't declare who is father was, or fathers occupation. It did tell me who Mgt Ridleys father was, so not a wasted trip :-)
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: HappyOldGit on Friday 28 May 21 10:53 BST (UK)
Hi Ginlover I am a direct descendant of Frank Elliott. I am his great great grandson and I have in my possession his book of old notes. If you would like to get in touch please contact me.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 28 May 21 16:35 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat HappyOldGit :-)

Ginlover hasn't been active in here since 2017, but providing they still use the same email address they will get a notification that there has been a reply to this thread.


Boo
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: GINLOVER on Monday 05 July 21 05:14 BST (UK)
HappyOldGit, I've sent you a private message.
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: HappyOldGit on Monday 05 July 21 16:08 BST (UK)
If I knew how to reply to your message I would
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: sarah on Monday 05 July 21 18:28 BST (UK)
Quote
HappyOldGit, I've sent you a private message.

Ginlover please remember that new members can not reply or send pms until they have made a couple of posts.

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Hayhay on Friday 06 August 21 14:31 BST (UK)
Hello, my mother is Doreen Henderson, so I too am a relation of Frank Elliott. He was left with Grace Taylor who was a widow, with the label , I am Frank Elliott. As he was registered at the church under the name of Taylor, that was the name he had to use for his marriage to Margaret. Just prior to the wedding the story goes he was met from the pit by a lady in a carriage, who took him to London where he stayed for a while. He was taught to read and when he came back he used the name Elliott and indeed taught many pitmen to read at the gaff in Barley Mow. His son Lancelot was the father of Jack Elliott the founder of The Elliott's of Birtley . You Tube have a 1960's recording by that name which you may find of interest. I would like to hear from Ginlover and Happy old Git. Best regards
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Hayhay on Saturday 11 September 21 13:53 BST (UK)
For Ginlover and Happy old Git I have sent you private messages
Title: Re: Frank Elliott: Gateshead, foundling, Elliott's of Birtley
Post by: Pigeon63 on Sunday 03 April 22 16:26 BST (UK)
Hello,
I was interested to read about Frank Elliott. He is my great, great grandfather. The stories surrounding his birth are similar to those passed on by my branch of the family. There was speculation that he may have been linked to the Lambton or Ravensworth families ( illegitimate offspring ) but there was no proof of this . I have been researching the family tree and census records indicate his place of birth as Surrey, Eighton Banks or unknown . No other family member was born in Surrey so this seems a little odd.
If anybody has any further information please share it.
Thanks