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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: GINLOVER on Friday 03 November 17 20:21 GMT (UK)
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Hello there,
I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light on who would be my 3x great grandfather Frank Elliott.
I have found some information, but it's driving me slight loopy looking for more.
I believe that he was born in 1832, and was a foundling left on the doorstep of the Taylor family in Gateshead. I have found this information on-line and he is linked to the Elliott's of Birtley folk music family. From what I can find he was registered in census' as a Taylor but then reverted to Elliott later creating the Elliott family. I have read he had a tag around his neck when he was found on the door step giving him the name Frank Elliott. He died around 1903, married a lady called Margaret (?surname) and his son Lancelot was my 2x great grandfather.
There is some family rumour/mystery that he was the illegitimate son of a Lord of the North East of England too, I'm very curious as to if this is true.
Thanks in advance,
GinLover. ;)
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He died around 1903, married a lady called Margret (?surname) and his son Lancelot was my 2x great grandfather.
Using the GRO index and checking Lancelot and some of his siblings' births, Margaret's maiden name was RIDLEY
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He married as Taylor it seems
Francis Taylor
Marriage date 25 Oct 1851
Marriage place Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Cas
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If he was a foundling with only a name tag, saying his name was "Frank Elliot", how do you know he was related to the "Elliots of Birtley, musical family?" I find it a little odd that a child left on someone's doorstep would have been named?
If his given name was Frank you also might like to consider searching for him as "Frances".
What is the source for the information you have about Frank being a foundling?
Unless he was named in a will as illegitmate son of said Lord, I'm not sure if it will be possible to prove that story. I think lots of stories were concocted to cover illegitimacy - and often family stories tend to play up this kind of thing. It sounds mrore acceptable to say an illegitimate ancestor was a product of the local Gentry and a servant than the product of a roll in the hay with a farm boy. (Though of course both are possible. ;) ) :) It could be worth investigating DNA testing.
It could also be worth considering that Frank was the child of the Taylors, but for some reason changed his surname to Elliot?
These are just a few thoughts from a superficial reading of your question, and without looking further into the family, so may or may not be relevant. :)
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Hi all, in 1851 he is Francis Elliot 19 b NK Durham with Ridley family in Chester Le Street
Census Ref HO107/2394/636/12
Keyboard86
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Hi all, in 1851 he is Francis Elliot 19 b NK Durham with Ridley family in Chester Le Street
Census Ref HO107/2394/636/12
Keyboard86
Strange that he was calling himself Elliot in that census yet a few months later married as Taylor. He would have been under 21, could that have anything to do with it i.e had to have the Taylor's permission?
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The only Francis possible I could locate in 1841 was:-
Margaret Taylor 22
William 20
Grace 18
Francis 9 Not born in county
Residing at Wrekenton, Gateshead
Census Ref HO107/296/ 12/28 / 10
Keyboard86
EDIT at same address a Grace Taylor 57
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Interesting in 1871 he is down as having been born in Surrey.
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Am dipping in and out of this with distractions so apologies if I get anything wrong, but ....
How many instances are there of him being "Elliot" as opposed to Taylor? (Wondering if a census error)
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I believe he is Elliott on every census and died as Elliott, but married as Taylor.
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Thank you all for the messages :)
This is what I found regarding the Taylor/Elliott surname (should have put with original posting, sorry):
"My great grandfather was indeed a foundling. He was left on the doorstep of a family named Taylor in Gateshead with a tag around his neck which read: 'My name is Frank Elliott. Please look after me.'"
The source that I found it on was this website: http://www.selectsurnames2.com/elliott.html
I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.
Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!
p.s I'm in Canada with an 8hour time difference so will be on here at odd times!
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If he was a foundling with only a name tag, saying his name was "Frank Elliot", how do you know he was related to the "Elliots of Birtley, musical family?" I find it a little odd that a child left on someone's doorstep would have been named?
If his given name was Frank you also might like to consider searching for him as "Frances".
What is the source for the information you have about Frank being a foundling?
Unless he was named in a will as illegitmate son of said Lord, I'm not sure if it will be possible to prove that story. I think lots of stories were concocted to cover illegitimacy - and often family stories tend to play up this kind of thing. It sounds mrore acceptable to say an illegitimate ancestor was a product of the local Gentry and a servant than the product of a roll in the hay with a farm boy. (Though of course both are possible. ;) ) :) It could be worth investigating DNA testing.
It could also be worth considering that Frank was the child of the Taylors, but for some reason changed his surname to Elliot?
These are just a few thoughts from a superficial reading of your question, and without looking further into the family, so may or may not be relevant. :)
DNA testing has crossed my mind a few times over recent weeks. The name told to me was Ravensworth, which I know is the Liddell's thanks to Google ;)
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This is what I found regarding the Taylor/Elliott surname (should have put with original posting, sorry):
"My great grandfather was indeed a foundling. He was left on the doorstep of a family named Taylor in Gateshead with a tag around his neck which read: 'My name is Frank Elliott. Please look after me.'"
The source that I found it on was this website: http://www.selectsurnames2.com/elliott.html
That site has a contact address http://www.selectsurnames2.com/feedback.html. Have you tried contacting the site owner to see if he can put you in touch with the descendant who says that, to see what information she may (or may not ) have? I'm not disputing what she is saying but 'family lore' though it may have started off with a grain of truth, oft repeated has a tendency to be embellished over the years.
Boo
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Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death:
Shields Daily Gazette 27 June 1903
page 5, col 6
DEATH OF MR FRANK ELLIOTT - The death took place yesterday at Birtley, of Mr Frank Elliott, a well-known Durham miner. Mr Elliott was born at Breckon Beds, near Low Fell Railway Station, and commenced work in the pit before he was ten years of age. Though robbed of the present day facilities for securing a good education, he found opportunities for schooling himself in the three “R’s”, and upon attaining manhood he was regarded as a leader amongst his fellows, being warmly appreciated for the fine intelligence, honesty, and straightforwardness he ever displayed in anything that affected their interests in the mining industry. Deceased was a skilful miner, and that he had a thorough knowledge of his craft was early demonstrated by his appointment as master shifter at Springwell colliery where he remained nine years. Subsequently he acted in a similar capacity at Harraton, one of Lord Durham’s collieries for 27 years. Four years ago, he went to live in well earned retirement at Birtley with his son, where his death occurred yesterday at the age of 72, after a fortnight’s illness. He leaves five daughters and four sons, all of whom are married.
Boo
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He married as Taylor it seems
Francis Taylor
Marriage date 25 Oct 1851
Marriage place Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Cas
It would be interesting to know who he says his father is.
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Mr Elliott was born at Breckon Beds, near Low Fell Railway Station,
Just adding a link to show the the location :)
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.9320&lon=-1.6077&layers=6&right=BingHyb
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I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.
Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!
There is a book about this family http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/elliotts.htm
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A very interesting and quite moving film about Jack, Frank's grandson is on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4EkHL_zUms
Boo
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Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death
What a lovely descriptive word, never heard it before.
Strange that the obituary doesn't mention he was a foundling but does give a place of birth.
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Boo is an excellent firkler, mainly on the Northumberland and Durham Boards :)
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Hi again, where is he in 1901 anyone?
Keyboard86
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I know from my Great Aunt who is still alive, and my mother too, that he was part of the musical Elliott's of Birtley.
Thank you for finding his wife's maiden name, Ridley. It does seem he married as a Taylor!
There is a book about this family http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/elliotts.htm
Thank you for all the replies! Looks like I have a few things to do today, including ordering the book :-)
I looked at the map link, and the location given as his birth in the death announcement is not far from Ravensworth Castle. Thanks for the firkle! ;-)
Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video, and email the website owner and see if they have any connections. Might be also worth another email to my Great Aunt!
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Hi again, where is he in 1901 anyone?
Keyboard86
I have found him in 1901 living with his son, Frank, in Birtley.
Name Frank Elliott
Event Type Census
Event Date 31 Mar 1901
Event Place Birtley, Durham, England
County Durham
Civil Parish Birtley
Ecclesiastical Parish St John The Evangelist
Sub-District Harraton
Registration District Chester Le Street
Residence Note Frank Place
Gender Male
Age 69
Occupation RETIRED COALMINER
Relationship to Head of Household Father
Birth Year (Estimated) 1832
Birthplace Birtley, Durham
Schedule Type 126
Page Number 19
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Afrank~%20%2Bsurname%3AElliott~%20%2Bresidence_place%3ABirtley~%20%2Brelationship_to_head%3AFather&collection_id=1888129
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;D Did'nt scroll down the page!!
Keyboard86
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Had a firkle and found the following 'possible' newspaper report for his death
What a lovely descriptive word, never heard it before.
Strange that the obituary doesn't mention he was a foundling but does give a place of birth.
Never really thought about it before, but I stuck 'firkle' into Google and, apparently, its classed as a new word! Which is strange as I have been using it for as long as I can remember (and I am knocking on a bit!) :-)
As for the birthplace in the obit, like parish registers , info on death certs etc etc the info is as given (to the best of their knowledge) by the person who was asked. It is never writ in stone.
As my Granda (fount of all knowledge in my life) was heard to say - it says Persil on the side of our buses, but they don't take in washing :-) I always take the info given and see if I can check it out.
Boo
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Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video
No idea if you are first, second or even third generation Canadian - but shout out if you need subtitles!
(the North Eastern accent puzzles my Surrey- south east of England - friends, not sure how it translates into Canadian)
:-)
Boo
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Next plan I guess is watch the YouTube video
No idea if you are first, second or even third generation Canadian - but shout out if you need subtitles!
(the North Eastern accent puzzles my Surrey- south east of England - friends, not sure how it translates into Canadian)
:-)
Boo
Only been here for 6yrs and I struggle with the British accents, will have to clean my ears out before I watch it! ;-)
I have come across this, and its gone from doorstep to ditch: https://media.smithsonianfolkways.org/liner_notes/folkways/FW03565.pdf
''Jack and Reece Elliott can only trace their family back to their peternal grandfather who, as a infant, was found abandaned in a ditch with a slip of paper bearing the name "Elliott" pinned on him."
I spoke with my mother today who remembers meeting Dorren Elliott! Rough math and she would now be in her 90's if she is living.
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A little more firkling shows that there was a death notice for Frank in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_DUNS on 27th June 1903 which will probably give details of when and where he was buried - if you don't already have that info.
I can't help with that as the Chronicle not yet in the database I have access to for 1903 and am too far away to nip to the library, but a request for a look up may find someone who is going to the library and has time to transcribe it for you.
Boo
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EVENING CHRONICLE - Saturday June 27, 1903
'ELLIOT.-1. Frank Place, Birtley, at the residence of his son Frank, on 26th inst., Frank Elliot, aged 72, the beloved husband of the late Margaret Elliot. To be interred at Birtley on Sunday at 3 pm. All friends kindly invited.'
Best Wishes :)
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that's super - and super fast too!
I am impressed as ever by your kindness and ability to seemingly 'beam up' to the Library!
So now we know what the Chronicle said and where he is buried :-)
Boo
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EVENING CHRONICLE - Saturday June 27, 1903
'ELLIOT.-1. Frank Place, Birtley, at the residence of his son Frank, on 26th inst., Frank Elliot, aged 72, the beloved husband of the late Margaret Elliot. To be interred at Birtley on Sunday at 3 pm. All friends kindly invited.'
Best Wishes :)
Thank you so very much for this.
So, last night I emailed Pete Wood the author who wrote the book on the Elliott's of Birtley, and he replied speedily. He told me this; 'He was left at the door of a public house wrapped in expensive clothes, and was taken in by the landlady, who was called Taylor. ' and that there is more in the book. So, now I will be checking the mail 6 times a day waiting for the book ;-)
He is also in touch with Doreen Elliott, who will be 90 next month and has passed on my details to her.
Ginlover
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I think you might need a male descendant of Frank and a male Liddell to agree to a yDNA test to see how the results stack up to try to prove your theory. :-\
Interesting story but without any kind of proof it is all just hearsay ... after all you are talking about a birth around 1832, and unless there are contemporary reports of Frank being abandoned as a baby, you won't know if there is any truth in the foundling story.
Proving his parentage is a whole other matter ... there are a multitude of possible scenarios.
I know DNA is not the be-all and end-all, but it might give you some clues. :-\
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He married as Taylor it seems
Francis Taylor
Marriage date 25 Oct 1851
Marriage place Gateshead, Durham
Spouse Margaret Ridley
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Cas
It would be interesting to know who he says his father is.
I went to the local LDS Family history centre today and looked this up. He didn't declare who is father was, or fathers occupation. It did tell me who Mgt Ridleys father was, so not a wasted trip :-)
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Hi Ginlover I am a direct descendant of Frank Elliott. I am his great great grandson and I have in my possession his book of old notes. If you would like to get in touch please contact me.
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Welcome to Rootschat HappyOldGit :-)
Ginlover hasn't been active in here since 2017, but providing they still use the same email address they will get a notification that there has been a reply to this thread.
Boo
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HappyOldGit, I've sent you a private message.
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If I knew how to reply to your message I would
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HappyOldGit, I've sent you a private message.
Ginlover please remember that new members can not reply or send pms until they have made a couple of posts.
Regards
Sarah
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Hello, my mother is Doreen Henderson, so I too am a relation of Frank Elliott. He was left with Grace Taylor who was a widow, with the label , I am Frank Elliott. As he was registered at the church under the name of Taylor, that was the name he had to use for his marriage to Margaret. Just prior to the wedding the story goes he was met from the pit by a lady in a carriage, who took him to London where he stayed for a while. He was taught to read and when he came back he used the name Elliott and indeed taught many pitmen to read at the gaff in Barley Mow. His son Lancelot was the father of Jack Elliott the founder of The Elliott's of Birtley . You Tube have a 1960's recording by that name which you may find of interest. I would like to hear from Ginlover and Happy old Git. Best regards
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For Ginlover and Happy old Git I have sent you private messages
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Hello,
I was interested to read about Frank Elliott. He is my great, great grandfather. The stories surrounding his birth are similar to those passed on by my branch of the family. There was speculation that he may have been linked to the Lambton or Ravensworth families ( illegitimate offspring ) but there was no proof of this . I have been researching the family tree and census records indicate his place of birth as Surrey, Eighton Banks or unknown . No other family member was born in Surrey so this seems a little odd.
If anybody has any further information please share it.
Thanks