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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: John Mace on Wednesday 04 October 17 11:09 BST (UK)
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hi new to this site ,looking for my information on my great grandfather joseph Arthur murphy born 1872 died 1936 West Ham .birth believed to be bootle or st helens put down as west ham he was married to amelia harris.his birth i think was wrongly put down as west ham,essex on censuses his ww1 record does say different,his father on the wedding certificate is william ,cant find out correct birth or who parents are,have tried off and on for over 20 years not sure where to go from here
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Hi who were the witnesses on the marriage - they could be family members which could help.
And what was his fathers occupation on the marriage?
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Do you know any siblings names?
Which census' do you have him on?
Jamjar
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Seems there are 4 in that area registered
Dec 1872
Murphy Joseph Liverpool 8b 56
Murphy Joseph W. Derby 8b 519
Murphy Joseph Birkenhead 8a 506
Murphy Joseph Stockport 8a 75
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I get only one Joseph with father William on the 1881 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27G-VLCS
Jamjar
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He is on census with Amelia after marriage plus several children but his age/birthplace not consistent.
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I get only one Joseph with father William on the 1881 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27G-VLCS
Jamjar
In addition to that one is
Name Joseph Murphy
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place Horton, Yorkshire,Yorkshire West Riding, England
Registration District Bradford
Residence Note Horton Lane
Gender Male
Age 10
Marital Status (Original) Single
Occupation Scholar
Relationship to Head of Household Inmate
Birth Year (Estimated) 1871
Birthplace Manchester, Lancashire, England
Page Number 24
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 4465/105
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I get only one Joseph with father William on the 1881 census.
That one has a sister Lilly and he names a daughter Lilian which could be a slight nod in the right direction.
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any idea how i prove it
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Could you give us some details from the marriage certificate please?
His fathers occupation would be very useful to cross check with census.
If he is a mason or stone mason that would be good!
Sister Jane I think marries in 1899 and her father is William Murphy deceased stone mason.
This ties in with the 1891 census where mother Margaret is a widow. IF that is the right family.
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onlly info is father labourer
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Oh that's disappointing. Can you give us the names of the witnesses please?
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witnesses at wedding were george salmon and ellen adams at a church in victoria docks canning town
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Just for information the GRO marriage index does not give a middle name for Joseph.
Marriage June qtr 1896
Harris Amelia
Murphy Joseph
W. Ham 4a 218
Do the childrens birth certificates name him as Joseph Arthur Murphy.
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,looking for my information on my great grandfather
joseph Arthur murphy born 1872 died 1936 West Ham .
birth believed to be bootle or st helens put down as west ham
he was married to amelia harris.
his birth i think was wrongly put down as west ham,essex on censuses
his ww1 record does say different,his father on the wedding certificate is william here
Hello and welcome to Rootschat
Do you have his Army record ?
Does it give his middle name as Arthur?
Which Regt. did he serve with ?
What place of birth & address did he give?
What age was he when he enlisted?
Who was named as his next of kin?
for info. and others looking I have added a link to the
1911/1901 census for Jospeh & Amelia
Joseph born c1876 and family
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWFS-9GM
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NH-251
here are the birth registrations for their children from GRO indexes showing mmn HARRIS
possible that they named they children after their parents/siblings
MURPHY, LILY ELIZA mmn Harris
1897 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 115
MURPHY, SARAH AMELIA mmn Harris
1897 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 115
MURPHY, WILLIAM HENRY mmn HARRIS
1899 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 111
MURPHY, JOSEPH ARTHUR mmn HARRIS
1900 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 47
MURPHY, THOMAS PHILIP mmn HARRIS
1902 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 60
MURPHY, CHARLES WILLIAM mmn HARRIS
1904 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 110
MURPHY, JANE mmn HARRIS
1906 J Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 105
MURPHY, LEONARD mmn HARRIS
1909 M Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 77
What were the names of Joseph's wife Amelia's parents?
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Is this his death registration :-\
Death Dec qtr 1936
Joseph Murphy age 62
Essex S.W. 4a 218
Thanks for the census links Ladyhawk :)
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the middle initial a is from a bible entry, i have the death certificate and marriage name is joseph he was listed as a crane driver on death cert
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Ok found his Army Record dated 21 6 1915 - no middle name - he joined The Royal Dublin Fusiliers
Joseph Murphy age 39 (1876) Canning Town Essex occ Labourer
Regt. No. 20180 Corps R Dublin Fus.
48 Stephenson Street
Wife Amelia nee Harris
Children
Joseph Arthur
Thomas Philip
Charles William
Jane
Leonard
George Edward
Philip James
Sarah Amelia
William Harry
Edit ~ Do you think it's possible he was born in Ireland?
Medical History give birth place...... Parish St Helen's county Lancs
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Place of birth on Army record St Helens, Lancashire
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Ladyhawk does that Army record mention tattoo's :-\
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Ladyhawk does that Army record mention tattoo's :-\
Was away from PC - I think it did just seeing if I can find it again
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death is right on replys died 1936 whipps cross hospital,amelia harris parents were william thomas harris and Eliza Godfrey
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Ladyhawk does that Army record mention tattoo's :-\
Was away from PC - I think it did just seeing if I can find it again
Ok found it - looks to read as follows
Distinctive marks : Tatoo Sailor at? hand. j m etc. left arm
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I was clutching at straws -there is a record for a Joseph Murphy bn St Helens c1872 in the South Lancashire regt when he was 19 but his were an 'A' and '516'
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death is right on replys died 1936 whipps cross hospital,
amelia harris parents were william thomas harris and Eliza Godfrey
So there are some possible naming patterns of Joseph & Amelia's children
Sarah Amelia after her
Joseph Arthur after him
Thomas Philip after Amelia's father William Thomas
Lily Eliza after Amelia's mother Eliza
William Henry after his father and or father in law William
It's possible that Joseph's mother may have been named Sarah, Lily or Jane
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served 40 days kicked out suffering from epilepsy ,no tattoos,place of birth st helens occupation labourer
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This looks to be Amelia Harris with her parents William Thomas & Eliza Louisa
1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27C-B75J
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLWF-56Z
her siblings named
Alice,
Elizabeth,
Louisa Maud,
George Edward,
Thos Wm,
Florence,
Henry
Joseph & Amelia named children
George Edward,
William Harry,
Thomas Philip
so again possible naming patterns
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served 40 days kicked out suffering from epilepsy ,no tattoos,place of birth st helens occupation labourer
The record mentions the tattoos that Ladyhawk has posted
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served 40 days kicked out suffering from epilepsy ,no tattoos,place of birth st helens occupation labourer
His tattoos are on the Descriptive Report on enlistment
Jospeh Murphy age 39 years
Height 5ft 5
Distinctive marks Tattoo Sailor at hand. J m etc left arm
Info. supplied by recruit
Next of kin Amelia Murphy wife 48 Stephenson St Canning Town Essex
Then it list particulars to marriage and children, statement of service etc……
Discharged 30 7 15 medical grounds
snap Rosie posting at same time
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sorry i see tatoos,checking his ag against death certificate died aged 62 in 1936 married 1896 aged 21 army record aged 39 in 1915, 1911 census he is 34 born 1876 ,1901 census aged 26.......age is all over the place
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The age is hardly varying at all, you should always allow around 2 yrs either way.
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sorry i see tatoos,checking his ag against death certificate died aged 62 in 1936 married 1896 aged 21 army record aged 39 in 1915, 1911 census he is 34 born 1876 ,1901 census aged 26.......age is all over the place
died aged 62 in 1936 born 1873/1874
married 1896 aged 21 born 1874/1875
army record aged 39 in 1915 born 1875/1876
1911 census he is 34 born 1876/1877
1901 census aged 26 born 1874/1875
total born 1873/1877
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Thoughts please on this entry as a possibility for Joseph Murphy born c1876
father William's occupation is a labourer BUT Joseph noted as born B hm :-\ (born Birmingham)
RG11; Piece: 3032; Folio: 107; Page: 28;
82 Devon St
William Murphy 31 South Wales occ Labourer
Jane Murphy wife 30 North Ireland
JOSEPH MURPHY son 6 (1875) B hm
Thomas MURRAY married wife’s brother 34 North Ireland occ labourer
Plus a boarder and a lodger
1881c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-F6ZL
Further investigations needed to establish if this might be the correct Joseph - I cannot as yet find the whereabouts of William, Jane or Joseph Murphy on 1891 census ??? to confirm one way of the other
I checked to see if there's a bapt. on Birmingham, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1912 but didn't find anything.
Checked FreeBMD for a birth entry c1876 Warwickshire Joseph Murphy
there's this possibility Birmingham is in the registration district of Aston
Jun 1877 Aston Joseph Murphy GRO indexes shows mmn PALLETT
The only Murphy/Pallett marriage I could see
1856 Aston Thomas Murphy female name on same page Mary Ann Pallett
there are more children with mmn Pallett on GRO indexes
Checked FreeBMD for a William Murphy/Jane Murray marriage - nothing
there are plenty of marriages for persons named William Murphy with female name Jane
on same page ???
For info. only - to keep just in case it relates
I think that Jane Murphy nee Murray's brother Thomas possibly married Alice Jackson 26 on 5th March 1865, his father Patrick occ lab.
Thomas & Alice are together again on 1891 census RG12; Piece: 3021; Folio: 91; Page: 31 with their children Barbara & Thomas and in 1881 Alice Murray married is with her children Barbara & Thomas plus two older girls.
Will continue to look.............
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i have looked at the murphy`s from the birmingham area and i can see no reason to look there,
my family have no apparent links there,i also seem to come back to william murphy born 1844 and margaret O`gorman they both died 1895/6 i think causing the children to go there own way.the names of the children seem to fit with my josephs children,just no sure how i prove that.
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i have looked at the murphy`s from the birmingham area and i can see no reason to look there,
my family have no apparent links there,
i also seem to come back to william murphy born 1844 and margaret O`gorman they both died 1895/6 i think causing the children to go there own way.
the names of the children seem to fit with my josephs children,
just no sure how i prove that.
Hello again
Is this the family you are referring too on the censuses, where the father William
occupation is a Stonemason and living in Lancashire in 1881
1891c Margaret Murphy widowed, JOSEPH occ Porter Railway, Jane
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q57G-P6Z
1881c William wife Margaret, children Anna, James, Michael, JOSEPH, Lily, Jane
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27G-VLWB
This appears to be the above Joseph's birth registration he has middle name John
MURPHY, JOSEPH JOHN mmn O'GORMAN
1871 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 268
MURPHY, JANE mmn GORMAN
1877 M Quarter in ROCHDALE Volume 08E Page 33
and the Murphy family appear to be living in Durham in 1871, son Michael was born Northumberland, anna & James born in Ireland
William wife Margaret children Anna, James & Michael born Northumberland
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ1-S1N
MURPHY, MICHAEL mmn GORMAN
1867 D Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 164
Edit
I've just come across a public tree on Anc*y giving these details for Lily
Elizabeth Ann "Lily" Murphy
1873–1955
Born 1 OCT 1873 • Manchester, Lancashire,
Died 1955 • Hulme, Manchester, Lancashire,
married as Elizabeth Ann Murphy 15 July 1893 • St Wilfreds RC Church, Hulme Manchester
I have just checked GRO indexes and it shows following birth registration
MURPHY, ELIZABETH ANN mmn GORMAN
1873 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 679
Nothing further about Joseph born c1872 Mancehster