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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Edward Scott on Sunday 01 October 17 16:56 BST (UK)
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Attached is a photo of the arms on top of the memorial to Robert Harris in Wisbech and also a 'translation' of same.
I am a complete novice in this area and would like to know firstly if someone can please explain which bits of the description match the arms, secondly would these have to have been approved by the College of Arms and finally (for now) how would one try to see if they were based on an existing one?
I am guessing that the containers shown on the right relate to his profession.
many thanks
Edward
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Your pdf file is missing the right-hand edsg, but I'll hazard an educated guess:
"per pale" means there are 2 divisions, divided by a vertical line (so side-by-side).
The First (on the left) is "O" or Or otherwise Gold for the field, and has a Bend (a diagonal stripe running from top left to bottom right) of "B" = blue, on which are 2 cinquefoils of the 1st (colour).
This is impaling (a term meaning side-by-side) a 2nd arms:
A red field on which is a Chevron Ermine (black on white pattern, representing ermine fur), dividing 3 pears (Or = gold).
The crest is a Talbot (a type of hunting dog) (not visible on your colour photo?).
Arms were granted to a named individual by the College of Arms, and may be used by male descendants of the armiger.
They do NOT belong to anyone with the same surname! ;D
Impaling arms like this was often done to show the arms of both husband and wife.
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Many thanks for your reply, description attached in a different format
I need time to work through this but the top of the arms is probably at least 15 feet up & very difficult to photograph without a stepladder.
Are what I thought were containers relating to apothecary actually pears?
thanks again
Edward
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Yes! The "containers" are in fact pears!
Artistic licence?!
The blazon (that's what heralds call the description!) says the 2nd half is "G", which means Gules, or red.
So I got that right from the picture. ;D
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Thanks again
Arms were granted to a named individual by the College of Arms, and may be used by male descendants of the armiger.
They do NOT belong to anyone with the same surname! ;D
Impaling arms like this was often done to show the arms of both husband and wife.
The original subject was Robert Harris coat of arms, unfortunately I had a few issues posting this & had to change it. I am aware of the ownership of arms.
I believe that if husband / wife arms were impaled then the wife would be on the right, if this is correct then it may exclude this as a possibility due to the artistic pears matching containers used in apothecary.
Edward
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IMHO the pears are absolutely nothing to do with apothecary! ;D
I think you're seeing something that the artist didn't intend?
Arms with pears are usually puns on the family name? E.G. Perry, Pearmain, etc.
George Abbott, Archbishop of Canterbury had the Abbott arms on the right-hand side of his arms:
Gules, a chevron between three pears pendent or.
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Again, I'm not an expert, just a long-time student of heraldry and I agree with all KGarrad has said. Searching the net for 'pear heraldry' does not show anything like those pictured. They actually looked more like water containers than fruit. None of my books shows anything similar. Perhaps the ancient herald "didn't get out much" and hadn't seen a pear?
I even uploaded the whole shield, and also just one 'pear' to Google Image Search and it failed (as it usually does!) Interestingly, there is a type of cider/perry called 'Harris Pear'.
Martin
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Gentlemen many thanks for your input, I still like to think that there is a sense of humour to the pears.
See the attached picture from here http://www.theglassmuseum.com/Englishvials.html
Edward
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Perhaps they are perry flagons, after redesigning the shield at the local hostelry.
Martin
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Looking at Parker's Heraldry (www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker), I can't find anything like yours?!
I have tried bottles, pitchers, ewers, jugs, jars, flagon, beaker, apothecary, druggist, chemist, etc ::)
Anyone have any clues as to what I can try next?
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Hello
I don't want to confuse the issue but the heading caught my eye and reminded me of a query I had some years ago regarding a Harris coat of arms:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=572907.0
I got tremendous help then, if the same people are about they seemed very knowledgable.
Regards
Suds
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Browsing through Burke's General Armory of England, I found this:
Harris (Maldon, co. Essex). Or, on a bend az. three cinque-foils pierced of the field. Crest — A talbot sejant or. Another Crest — A buck's head chequy ar. and az. attired or.
For me, that confirms that the first arms are that of Harris.
Now to find the second arms! ;D
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Browsing through Burke's General Armory of England, I found this:
Harris (Maldon, co. Essex). Or, on a bend az. three cinque-foils pierced of the field. Crest — A talbot sejant or. Another Crest — A buck's head chequy ar. and az. attired or.
For me, that confirms that the first arms are that of Harris.
Now to find the second arms! ;D
That is interesting as there is, currently, no known link to that Harris family. His father appears to be from Northamptonshire.
However the fact he used this may not mean that there is a real link but perhaps a perceived or hopeful one. The use of the catherine wheels in later (Victorian) Scott arms is an example of people linked by name and not by relation using them.
thanks again
Edward
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Burke's has this to say of Scott, with regard to Catherine Wheels:
Scott (Scott's Hall, CO. Kent; the family claim descent from William Baliol le Scot, brother of Alexander Baliol, of Chilham Castle, co. Kent, and of John Baliol, King of Scotland ; William Baliol le Scot was buried at Canterbury ; his descendants have been buried at Brabourne, Co. Kent., for nearly 600 years, and were settled there and at Scott'g Hall, temp. Edward I., until the beginning of the last century. Of this family were the following : Sir William Scott, Chief Justice of England and Knight Marshal temp. Edward II. and Edward III. ; Sir William Scott, Swordbearer to Henry "V., and M.P. co. Kent ; Sir Robert Scott, Lieutenant of Tower of London, 1424; Sir John .Scott, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, Governor of Dover Castle, Comptroller of Calais, and Comptroller of the Household, temp. Edward IV. ; Sir William Scott, his son. Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, Governor of Dover Castle, temp. Henry VIII.; Sir John Scott, Knight of the Body Guard to Henry VIII.; Sir Reginald Scott, Captain of Calais, temp. Henry VIII.).
Ar. three Catharine wheels sa. a border engr. gu. Crest— A deml griffin segreant sa. beaked
and legged or.
Scott (Shrewsbury and Tonge Norton, co. Salop; descended from Anthony Scott, Esq., of Scott's Hall, temp. Queen Elizabeth). Same Arms.
Scott (.Scott- Wakiwo ; descended from the foregoing). Same
Arms.
Scott (Heath House, Weybridge, co. Surrey). Same Arms.
Scott (co. Lincoln, and the Manor House, Ham, co. Surrey; represented by Sir Geokoe Gilbebt Scott, Knt., LL.D.), Same Arms, Ac.
Scott (The Moat, co. Sussex ; descended from Edward .Scott, Esq., second son of Sir William Scott, K.B., of Scott's Hall, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports). Same Arms, &c.
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The description that I used of this coat of arms was taken from "Monumental inscriptions and coats of arms from Cambridgeshire" (free download) and on page 388 - plate xxx there is the authors drawing which clearly shows pears - 2 up from the bottom on the left hand column.
I now believe that William Cole saw pears and therefore put them into the blazon.
So left hand half is 'borrowed' from Harris of Maldon and the right hand half relates to him as an apothecary with a hint of humour.
rgds
Edward
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Burke's has this to say of Scott, with regard to Catherine Wheels:
Scott (Scott's Hall, CO. Kent; the family claim descent from William Baliol le Scot, brother of Alexander Baliol, of Chilham Castle, co. Kent, and of John Baliol, King of Scotland ; William Baliol le Scot was buried at Canterbury ; his descendants have been buried at Brabourne, Co. Kent., for nearly 600 years, and were settled there and at Scott'g Hall, temp. Edward I., until the beginning of the last century. Of this family were the following : Sir William Scott, Chief Justice of England and Knight Marshal temp. Edward II. and Edward III. ; Sir William Scott, Swordbearer to Henry "V., and M.P. co. Kent ; Sir Robert Scott, Lieutenant of Tower of London, 1424; Sir John .Scott, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, Governor of Dover Castle, Comptroller of Calais, and Comptroller of the Household, temp. Edward IV. ; Sir William Scott, his son. Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, Governor of Dover Castle, temp. Henry VIII.; Sir John Scott, Knight of the Body Guard to Henry VIII.; Sir Reginald Scott, Captain of Calais, temp. Henry VIII.).
Ar. three Catharine wheels sa. a border engr. gu. Crest— A deml griffin segreant sa. beaked
and legged or.
Scott (Shrewsbury and Tonge Norton, co. Salop; descended from Anthony Scott, Esq., of Scott's Hall, temp. Queen Elizabeth). Same Arms.
Scott (.Scott- Wakiwo ; descended from the foregoing). Same
Arms.
Scott (Heath House, Weybridge, co. Surrey). Same Arms.
Scott (co. Lincoln, and the Manor House, Ham, co. Surrey; represented by Sir Geokoe Gilbebt Scott, Knt., LL.D.), Same Arms, Ac.
Scott (The Moat, co. Sussex ; descended from Edward .Scott, Esq., second son of Sir William Scott, K.B., of Scott's Hall, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports). Same Arms, &c.
Re "Scott (co. Lincoln, and the Manor House, Ham, co. Surrey; represented by Sir Geokoe Gilbebt Scott, Knt., LL.D.), Same Arms, Ac." there is no known connection to Scotts Hall.
We share a common ancestor (albeit I am a little younger).
Edward
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To use the same arms there MUST be a link ;D
The Heralds and the College of Arms do not permit different families sharing a coat-of-arms.
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Correct, but that assumes that the bearer
gained requested the approval of the College. In this instance he did not :o
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The "arms" on the right look to me like the "arms" of many of the London livery companies, as frequently printed on their Indenture forms.
Whether they are formal arms and recognized by the Heralds, I can't say.
Now, I know that the present day arms of the Apothecaries Company are different. The questions is, what were they using back around the turn of the C18th?
I have attached the Wheelwrights' Company version, for comparison.
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It appears that their arms were granted in 1617 by James 1st
http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Worshipful_Society_of_Apothecaries
Edward
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I have found an early Apothecaries Indenture in the Freedom of the City collection on Ancestry.
This has an "arms" similar to the present arms. So I may be barking up the wrong tree.
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Possibly an earlier version but both seem to be Apollo
Edward
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Barking up the wrong pear tree! ;D ;D
This is just my opinion, but I think whoever wrote the article previously quoted was well-used to writing blazons, and would have been unlikely to have got this wrong?
I still think it's 3 pears ;D
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Yes, I agree my hypothesis seems unlikely on current evidence.
However, I still think the stylistic similarity shouldn't be completely forgotten. As soon as as I saw the image, my thought was Livery Company "arms", even before I read that he was a Citizen.
I will go to my grave believing that they are medicine bottles and not pears.
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I still think they look like medicine bottles.
But I have just found out that the memorial was renovated in the 1930's and am now wondering if the renovator applied poetic licence.
That leaves all of us unsatisfied :(
Edward
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The subject of marshaling, of which impaling is just 1 example, is dealt with here:
https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossm.htm#Marshalling
Do you know from where the inscription (as in your PDF) was taken? And roughly what date?
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Do you know from where the inscription (as in your PDF) was taken? And roughly what date?
See post 14
Date, again from the book, 1742-1782
rgds
Edward
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The authors, John Layer and William Cole, recorded this c1632 and between 1742 and 1782.
They would have been educated men, almost certainly University educated.
As such, they would have been familiar with Heraldic language?
And the fact that they described the errant charges as "pears" seems to me to be the clincher.
Do you know who Richard Harris married?
Maybe we can find an arms for her father.
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Robert married twice and I have yet to find definite proof of either marriage
Best guesses and reasons so far are
Marriage to Susannah Ireland based on date and location 27 Feb 1692/93 St Andrews Holborn
Marriage 01 Aug 1710 at St Alphage London Wall to Elizabeth Woodhouse based on them both being of St Andrews Holborn
Robert left money to the poor of St A's Holborn and the 4 children of his first marriage were baptised there.
I am trying to see if any pre-renovation paperwork or pictures exists and also talking to the College of Arms to find out if they have the original description, etc.
Edward
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William Cole information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cole_(antiquary)
Edward
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John Layer information:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Layer,_John_(1585%3F-1641)_(DNB01)