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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Jeffrey on Tuesday 02 August 05 10:42 BST (UK)
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My Gt Grandmother Agnes jackson was born 5 Feb 1855 at Torcoon. Canonbie I can find no reference to this on a modern map.
Does any one know where it was and what it was. I have an idea it may be a farm.
Any info would be good.
Judy
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Hiya Judy,
A warm welcome to you.
There is a Tarcoon on Multimap.
Not sure if this terrible link is going to work!
Multimap (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=335000.641593332&Y=579000.446059346&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&scale=25000&down.x=191&down.y=3)
It appears to be a farm.
Do you have a road atlas of the UK?
It is off the B720 about 1.3m west of Hollows as the crow flies.
Hope this helps,
Pam
Woohoo it worked!
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Hi Pam,
Thanks for the information and the mapblast did work. It is the best lead I have had yet on this and I know that the spelling of names are corrupted over the years. Even the Dumfiesshire Records Office could not tell me about it. I know that there was a big family of Armstrongs lived here in the 1841 Census when again it was spelled as Torcoon.
My Gt Grandmother Agnes Jackson was illegitimate and born in 1855, she had a sister Margaret born in 1858. No record of her father is on her birth certificate. Did the church, I presume in Canonbie, also keep records of Baptisms for those years do you know or did they stop when the records began.
If any one else knows anything about it I would be very pleased to hear.
Judy
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I don't know if this is any help, its the 1841 census entry for Torcoon:
Armstrong Robert m 55 Farmer DFS
Armstrong Agness f 35 DFS
Armstrong William m 12 DFS
Armstrong John m 10 DFS
Armstrong Simeon m 9 DFS
Armstrong Robert m 7 DFS
Armstrong David m 5 DFS
Armstrong Andrew m 3 DFS
Armstrong Margaret f 4m DFS
Beattie Sibella f 15 Agricultural Labourer DFS
Beattie Agness f 10 Female Servant DFS
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If this Armstrong family is relevant, they were still all living there in 1851. Have a look at http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/historicalindexes/census.aspx
This Armstrong family have an address ref of Turcoon(814) , household no. 13/14.
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Thanks for the information. No sign of Agnes Jackson's mother there at all in 1851. Her mother was Charters Jackson born 1833 at Crosdykes. Hutton & Corrie. She gave birth to Agnes in 1855 and Margaret in 1858 at Torcoon/Tarcoon/Turcoon.
I can not find Charters on the 1851 Census at all. By the 1861 Census she was in Cumberland as a farm servant. But I can not find her daughters on the 1861 Census in either England or Scotland. Agnes must have been 6years & Margaret 3 years old.
They seem to be very elusive. Did they just evade being on the Census or what. Any ideas.
Judy
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Hi Judy
Can't see Charters/Charteris at all on the 1851 census. Getting zero results also on SP even with the use of wildcards. Unusual name, normally used as a surname (French origin I think?). But you have her in the 1861 census in England so she must have gone by that name and also registered her daughters' births with that name.
I can see a couple of Jackson families on the 1851 census in Hutton area which is what's given as her birth place on IGI, although the 3 entries are all submitted records rather than actual extracts from the OPRs. Not sure about her father being James, possibility it was John (?). There are a numerous sumitted entries for births with mother Agnes Bell (as that showing for Charters) but married to a John Jackson, children showing as born in Langholm.
If Charters was working in England in 1861, maybe family were taking care of her daughters in Dumfries. There is one entry each for an Agnes J, age 6 and a Margaret J, age 3 showing in Dumfries on SP. Have you looked at these?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for the reply.
The Charters Christian name has been passed down with different spellings - I am a Judith Charteris. and with researching the family have found other ancestors called Charters in the late 1800's and early 1900's that I did not know about. I have noticed where Charters was born at Crossdykes Hutton there was a lady called Charters Common and think it must have come from there.
I have looked up the children on SP and neither of them are the ones so I do not know where they got to.
Charters Jackson's father was definitely James Jackson as I ordered the Parish records on SP. However although her mother was Agnes Bell from Crossdykes her father was James Jackson from Castleton. They were unmarried. I have also looked for all of them in Roxburgh (Is that how you spell it) with no luck!
Any other ideas gratefully received.
Judy
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Judy
Cannot see where Charters is at all in 1851. Had another go and nothing. Have you searched for her in England for this census?
My other thought in respect of daughters Agnes and Margaret - maybe they were listed under another surname in 1861. Charters's mother Agnes Bell, who I understand didn't marry James Jackson (?), may have married and the children could have been with their grandmother under another surname?
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks again for your help and ideas.
I had thought about the children being with their grandmother and found on SP that Margaret's birth was registered by her grandmother Agnes so viewed the entry (then her surname was the only word I could not read on the page). SP were very helpful and looked at it for me and thought it was Agnes 'Hanna'. I thought it looked like that too. So I have tried all combinations of that and different spellings to no avail. Agnes Bell's father's surname was Halliday. But again I have tried all sorts of combinations of that too.
Just a thought though, I have not tried anything to do with Agnes Hanna on the English Census - will try that. Will let you know if I strike lucky.
In the mean time any suggestions would be gratefully received. The more I try the more likely I would be to find them.
Judy
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Just tried the English Census for them.
No luck!
Judy
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Judy
A quick look at the 1861 census for Dumfries (free searches on SP, haven't viewed them):
Using Ha* for surname:
Agnes Hanah age 60 Canonbie
Agnes Hannah x3 ages 48/55/57 in Dumfries
Agnes Hanley age 47 Kelton
Using Hal*y and adding more:
A search for an Agnes Halliday in Dumfries age 50-70 produced 4 entries:
Age 52 in Dumfries
Age 57 in Ruthwell
Age 70 in Dunscore
Age 51 in Hutton and Corrie
The problem is I cannot see an Agnes/Margaret child in their age groups for the same places to match the Agnes's above (life is never easy is it!)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Bingo!!!! Your Agnes Hannah aged 60 in Canonbie, I have just looked up onSP. How could I have missed that one - I have spent so many credits looking at others. Just shows you get some one else looking at it in a different way.
I know it is her as the enumerator has written Bell then crossed it out and written Hanah, and the place of birth is right. She is with her husband who is a farm labourer and the next farm to them is Torcoon.
Then it gets even better her grand daughter Agnes is with her - aged 5. Her surname is down as "Armstrong". Which just confirms my suspicions that her father was an Armstrong. As Agnes put Armstrong down on her children's birth certificates then said it was Jackson later on towards the end of her life.
I have been looking for this for about 2 years. Thank you very much!!!
Judy
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Hi Judy
That's brilliant! You now have at least SIX Armstrong sons in the farm next door as potential fathers!!!
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I am really pleased about the find. Thank you.
Yes where one problem is solved it just makes another. Which one of the Armstrongs will it be?
I shall see about the Kirk Sessions in the Canonbie area and see if they were admonished for having children without being married. I hope they were then I will find the father.
Thanks for all the corresponding if you hadn't kept at this I would not have found them.
Best Wishes,
Judy
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Hi Monica,
Just been looking at the names of Agnes's Sons. The oldest is called Robert. I wonder if that was the one of the six male Armstrongs from Torcoon that was her father and she named her first son after him.
Certainly the ages are right as Robert Armstrong from Torcoon was about the same age as her mother. Wonder if he died as he isn't there in 1861. Will have to look further.
But another thought - this Robert Armstrong also had a father Robert. But I do not think him as likely as a father as he was quite a bit older, 69 in 1855 when Agnes was born.
No proof but getting there!
Judy
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Judy
Remember they may have used the Scottish naming order: First son named after father's father, first daughter after mother's mother etc. You know who Agnes married and I assume that you have her wedding cert showing her husband's parents. If father in law is not called Robert, but their children's names all seem to follow overall this naming pattern, it does give room for thought! How to prove it I wonder. I think you're idea of checking the Kirk Sessions is good, assuming they were church people. The Dumgal site Dumfries kirk session entries don't seem to have anything but I'm not sure how complete these are (I've checked surnames Hanah/Jackson/Bell but they all seem to stop around 1810-30 and we're looking at 1855).
There's still the issue of where Charters was in 1851. Given her age you would think she would have been local to Torcoon. I wonder if her name was mistranscribed. What was Agnes Bell/Hanah's husband's name? The problem with searching on Scotland's people is that you cannot search by first name only (as with the Dumgal site). Have you found Agnes on the 1851 census?
Regards.
Monica
PS: I do agree it was probably son rather than father!!!
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Judy
Not sure if you've got this. From freecen, this looks like Charters in 1841:
Margaret Holliday age 71, a Pauper, born in Dumfries-shire
Charters Jackson, age 7, born Dumfries-shire
Living in Crossdykes, Hutton and Corrie, Dum.
I assume this is Charters maternal grandmother (and explains the name of Charters's second daughter).
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yes have got the 1841 Census for Charters and her Grandmother Margaret Halliday thanks. However can not find her mother Agnes Bell in 1841. But looking on the 1861 census at the birth place of ANTHONY HANAH who she married he was born in Wigtonshire - wonder if they are over there. I have the transcriptions of the Parishes of Canonbie, Hutton & Corrie & Ewes but there is no Hanah.
I do not know where Charters Jackson got to in the 1851 Census. Sometimes the name is transcribed as Charteris, Chartres, Charteres, Chate or Charles
Looking at who young Agnes's father could have been. She married a William Armstrong from Bewcastle, Cumberland at Gretna Green, so did not get the parents names from there. However Anthony Hanah her step granparent was a witness. William A had been married before so had named his first children after his father and grandfather and his female child after his mother. So Agnes could have named her first male child Robert after her father, she named her first female child after her mother.
Incidently the person that William Armstrong was married to before Agnes was a Charters & on her death certificate she was the right age to have been Agnes's mother!!!! Can not find a marriage cert for them though.
I have tried freecen since you mentioned it but can not get it even to come up with Charters or her grandmother Margaret Halliday in 1841 - how did you get that?
I find SP site quite expensive and quite restricting as to how you can search. However when I had a problem with reading the transcript they were very good.
Many thanks again for all your help and input.
Judy
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Judy
I can see an Anthony Hannah in both freecen 1841 and 1851 Dumgal census (the only one showing) living in Whithorn. The 1851 index gives his birthplace as Whithorn, WGT. Is this the right one? Interestingly, an Agnes shows in the 1841 index but not in the 1851. The address from the 1851 census is Cattyens (900) household no. 2/5A. His sisters seem to have lived with him over this period.
Strange how they seem to have aged 20-25 years between the censuses!
Monica
Added: I've just checked the 1861 census on SP. We now have TWO Anthony Hannah showing! One still in Whithorn (as above) and the other as you found in Cannonbie. So the 1841/51 is not ours. Back to the drawing board....!!!
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Ok, found Charters in 1851! Your comment about Charters being often mis-indexed as Charles made me think and sure enough I found a female Charles Jackson in Castleton, Roxburgh. She's a farm servant and birthplace shows as Hutton, Dum. I'll PM you with more details.
To find Charter in freecen should be straighforward as she's indexed correctly (stating the obvious or not so sometimes!) have you ticked 1841 at the top left? The default is 1891.
So Charters is not with mother in 1851. I've done a search for Anthony Han* in the whole of Scotland, there are only 7 entries. Four are children, one is 75 in Argyll, 35 in Barony Glasgow and then our man in Whithorn. Have you checked the English census for them?
Just out of interest, who did Charters marry? Charters is such an unusual first name, it seems uncanny that young Agnes married a man whose first wife also had that name......specially if the birth ages fit..........never mind that she married an Armstrong.........and the oldest Armstrong son was also called William...but let's not go there!!!
Monica
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Judy
Just realised that Charters in Castleton in 1851, this is where her father James Jackson was from, so that would explain why Charters was there.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Hope you received my e-mail but have not done a personal message before so let me know if you have not got it.
Judy
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Agnes Bell
I have an Agnes Bell in my Family tree, could this be the same one? details below:
Agnes Bell born circa 1806, Canonbie
Known Children (no father listed)
Ann Bell 1839, Canonbie
George Bell 1842/3, Canonbie
Found on 1851 Census:
Hallgreen, Canonbie
Agnes Bell (unmarried - head) 44 Agricultural Labourer
Ann Bell (dau) 12 Scholar
George Bell (son) 8 Scholar
All born in Canonbie
A possible death record:
Agnes Bell or Elliott, died 1883, Canonbie, age 77
My descent is via Ann who married William Jardine
Pete
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My Agnes Bell was born at Crossdykes in Hutton & Corrie. She married an Anthony Hannah around 1851 and died in Bewcastle Cumberland in 1869.
I know she is not the Agnes Bell on your census as I had wondered if she was at one time but traced her to Ewes in Dumfrieshire - household of Robert Anderson in the 1851 Census.
Judy
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Hello All,
I'm trying to link up various Canonbie Armstrongs & have found a possible link between Robert Armstrong b1833 in Torcoon & a Colonel Robert Armstrong mentioned in the Kansas City Journal - 4th son of Robert Armstrong of Torcoon, farmer. (The Journal entry seems to be dated around 20th April 1877).
This Colonel Armstrong is listed as having a 1200 acre farm in Nemaha County.
Cheers
Bob Armstrong
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Bob,
I've had a look at a couple of indexes.
One is a booklet providing an index to the Canonbie 1851 Census. There is as you may know an on-line index as well. The second is the Scotland People Index (ie I haven't looked at the images).
From ScotlandsPeople there are two Robert Armstrongs baptised between January 1850 and the end of 1854 in Canonbie Two Robert Armstrongs are provided - and their parents names are given. From the index at Torcoon is a 68 yr old Robert who is Head and a 16yd old son David, who is unmarried. This of course is 1851.
One of the ScotlandsPeople shows a father of one of the Robert's as David - Robert's mother was Hannah.
If you think after your own checking that you have established the right link then you will find that there is a memorial in Canonbie giving another couple of generations back from the 68 yr old Robert above. In the booklet of Canonbie MIs it is number 315.
Best of luck
Reiver
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Thanks Reiver,
That's great info.
Cheers
Bob
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Don't know if you checked this link (http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~scottish/indexcanChrh.html) or not but there's Armstrong's of Torcoon mentioned no: 315
re:Colonel Robert Armstrong. I think i might of spotted him in the wills last night on scotspeople. ???
Rewcastle.
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Thanks Rewcastle,
I've seen that site - very useful.
You're input much appreciated
Cheers
Bob
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There's this memorial in Wauchope Churchyard which mentions Torcoon (sic):
In memory of JOHN SLACK, Tenant in Peterburn, who died 13th July 1853 aged 66 years Also ELIZABETH SCOTT his wife who died at Hagg 10th May 1875 aged 76 years Also ELIZA their daughter who died 16th June 1861 aged 36 years Also JANE their daughter who died at Turcoon 11th September 1889 aged 61 years And of their Grand-children MARGARET daughter of George Slack and Giles Aitchison who died at Cronksbank 30th March 1860 aged 11 months JOHN their son died 21st December 1860 aged 5 years ANDREW their son died 11th January 1861 aged 7 years ELIZABETH their daughter died 18th January 1861 aged 9 years JANE their daughter died 24th May 1877 aged 10 years Also the said GILES AITCHISON his wife who died 29th September 1881 aged 58 years Also the above GEORGE SLACK who died 13th January 1894 aged 73 years Also ROBERT SLACK son of the above John Slack and Elizabeth Scott who died at Cronksbank 29th April 1908 aged 76 years
Cheers
Bruce
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Thanks for that, Bruce,
I've seen the village spelt in many ways - especially in US related docs. Probably the accent. My ancestors were listed as Earmstrong in Bedfordshire in the 1600's, spelt phoenetically!
Cheers
Bob