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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Caroline NJ on Tuesday 19 September 17 14:58 BST (UK)
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Hello!
I recently started working on my Family Tree in County Cork, through my paternal grandfather, Thomas Herbert Moore (Church of Ireland). His mom was Mary Esther "Minnie" Moore. Mary's father was William Harold (Harrold) from Knockshanawee (Knockshanavee) Cork and her mother was Rebecca Good, according to her birth record (born April 1, 1866 of William Harold and Rebecca Harold, formerly Good, in Knockshanawee, Cork birth registered May 26, 1866 in District of Temple Martin, in the Union of Bandon).
I cannot find a birth record for Rebecca. I did find a record for her marriage to William Harrold (his father Charles) on May 30, 1854 on FamilySearch.org, which states she was from Ahinagh, Cork and her father was James Good. Seeing that Aghinagh was very near Macroom, I searched the Macroom Parish Register and found three children born to James and Ann Good of Ummery, Hannah on March 27, 1819, James May 11, 1821 and Sarah on January 20, 1825 but no births are recorded for this couple after Sarah. I saw a Roots Chat posting by a Barry Bradfield stating that Ann Bradfield and James Good were married in 1816 with the acronym "MLB" after the entry. Also that both Ann Bradfield and James Good died in 1862 so there is a good possibility that more children were born but for some reason were recorded elsewhere or not recorded. I do not know from what records that this Roots Chat member obtained the marriage of Ann Bradfield and James good and their birth and death years (Ann 1784-1862) and (James 1779-1862).
I also see in the Tithe Applotment records that both James and William Good have lands in Mashaneglass (Mashanaglass) Well farm and in Ummery (Ummera).
I have several questions that I was hoping to get some help with:
1) I was going to try to reach Barry Bradfield or other Roots Chat members to see where the marriage record for Ann Bradfield and James Good could be found, since I couldn't find it in the Macroom Parish records. I guess this would make sense since the marriage may have taken place elsewhere, in the bride's parish and after would they settle where her husband lived and worked. Perhaps someone could help me find where this marriage took place?
2) Would anyone happen to know what "MLB" means?
3) Assuming that Rebecca Good was the daughter of James Good in Aghinagh (based on the information on her marriage record) I would like to find her birth/baptism record to continue the family tree. Her birth would have been somewhere between 1827-1832. This birth period is based off her age listed on the 1901 Census (Rebecca Harold - Knockshanawee) as being 70, and also her death record showing her age as 77 as of her death on November 20, 1905.
4) I would also like to know what the names of Church of Ireland Churches in which these events occurred (birth of Rebecca Good, the marriage of what I assume are her parents, Ann Bradfield and James Good). Also what graveyards would James and Ann Good likely to be buried in?
I appreciate and look forward to receiving the advice of RootsChat members.
Thanking you in advance!
Best regards,
Caroline NJ
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Hi and welcome to rootschat ;D
You will not find a 'birth' record as it is years before civil registration so you are looking for a baptism record
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Ann Bradfield and James Good Marriage Licence Bond 1816 Cork and Ross
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/dm/IRE_DIOC_007246532_00433.pdf
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/dm/home.jsp
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Anglican parishes records information.
http://ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegistersTable.pdf
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Rebecca Harold died 1905 aged 77
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05575/4565577.pdf
William Harold died 1929 aged 94
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1930/04920/4335231.pdf
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Hi Iluleah,
Thank you for explanation re: births vs. baptisms. I read online that civil records for births, marriages and deaths are from 1864 onwards in Ireland. I have a lot to learn about this and appreciate your assistance.
Caroline NJ
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I'm not convinced the RC Aghinagh James and Ann Good are the same couple as James Good and Ann Bradfield.
The Good Branfield marriage is COI and their daughter Rebecca's marriage is recorded as taking place in Ahinagh which is the spelling used for the COI parish.
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Hi Sinann,
Thank you very much for the great information that you have provided to me. I did not have a copy of the Marriage License bond for James Good and Anne Bradfield from 1816 and really appreciate receiving a copy of this record from you. Also, thank you for sending the death records for Rebecca Harold and William Harold, it is much appreciated! I did have those records but it took me much longer to find them than you did; you're very proficient at this!
I was hoping that you could answer some questions with regard to the Marriage License Bonds for Cork and Ross. Do you know if these marriage license bonds for Cork and Ross are for Protestant marriages only, Catholic Marriages, or both? I don't want to assume and there is a mixture of Protestant and Catholic marriages within my family tree, including my own parents (my own father is Catholic, and my mother protestant but she converted to Catholicism). Also would like to find out what church Ann Bradfield and James Good where married in.
Also, do you have any advice on how I could find out where Anne Bradfield is from? I can't imagine that she would have been too far from Aghinagh/Ahinagh were she lived after marrying James Good. (Maybe she is in the Macroom Parish Register and I missed it, I am going to double-check it). You provided me with the List of Records of COI registers but apparently there is no Parish register book for Aghinagh only a Vestry book/Miscellaneous Papers/Tithe Book. I have a number of questions from this great advice that you provided:
1) Are Ahinagh and Aghinagh the same parish/place in county Cork, just with a variation of spelling?
2) Can you tell me the differences in information contained in a Vestry book vs. a Parish Register? I feel pretty sad after looking at this comprehensive, detailed list of COI Parish registers as it appears that the Aghinagh/Ahinagh, as well as Aglish Parish registers (where the Harold family lived) were destroyed in the PROI fire in 1922 and not saved. Perhaps the information I am looking for will be found elsewhere.
3) I found the baptism records of three children (Hannah, James & Sarah) of Ann (Bradfield) and James Good who married in 1816 in the Macroom register available online, but none recorded after that. I am trying to find the baptism record for Rebecca Good. Rebecca would have been born sometime after the first three children, in the period 1827-1831. Ann and James had a farm in the area and I don't think they moved so I am wondering were her baptism record would have been recorded, if not in Macroom then where? If you have some ideas on this I would be very grateful for your advice. I am basing my belief that Rebecca is the daughter of this couple on the 1854 marriage record I found for her, stating that she was from Ahinagh and that her father was James Good.
Thank you very much for your advice and the great records you provided to me today; I really appreciate it!
Caroline NJ
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Hi Sinann,
Thank you for your reply! I am a little confused by the reference to the Catholic Marriage you mentioned and that there may be two different couples, one Catholic and the other Protestant.
I wanted to let you know that the births I looked up on the Macroom Register were derived from a link on www.durrushhistory.com and that register is referred to as Church of Ireland, and the three births for Hannah, James and Sarah, are of James Good and his wife Anna, of Ummery and for each of these births the Parish is referred to as "Ahinah" and for the last birth, the Minister is Simon Davies.
I think that this couple is then COI and I confused the issue by the spelling variant "Aghinagh" that I used intermittently in my description. Is James Good and his wife Anna then a COI couple, based on what I described? And is this Anna the Anna Bradfield as referenced in the Cork and Ross Marriage License bonds in her marriage to James Good that you provided to me?
Also, do you think the above may be the parents of the Rebecca Good married in 1854, from Ahinagh?
I will be back on the Forum tomorrow, in between other work I need to get done.
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A few comments after reading the posts here...
I did find a record for her marriage to William Harrold (his father Charles) on May 30, 1854 on FamilySearch.org, which states she was from Ahinagh, Cork and her father was James Good.
This is the extracted marriage record that you found-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXH-VVC
The database does not show the residence of bride or place of marriage (for this date usually shows the parish)- for the exact details you will need the actual certificate. It will eventually be added to Irish Genealogy site (free) so that you can view a scanned image of the certificate.
I wanted to let you know that the births I looked up on the Macroom Register were derived from a link on www.durrushhistory.com and that register is referred to as Church of Ireland
Clicking on that link I get 'unable to find' but this looks like the correct link- https://durrushistory.com/
It's not uncommon for some baptisms in a family not to appear in the register- depends on the period (are there any gaps in register?), clergyman (perhaps elderly or not making entries soon after event) or for just no obvious reason at all.
Looks like Rev. Simon Davies died in 1830 aged about 72 years-
https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Simon_Davies_(1)
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Hi Sinann,
Thank you very much for the great information that you have provided to me. I did not have a copy of the Marriage License bond for James Good and Anne Bradfield from 1816 and really appreciate receiving a copy of this record from you. Also, thank you for sending the death records for Rebecca Harold and William Harold, it is much appreciated! I did have those records but it took me much longer to find them than you did; you're very proficient at this!
I posted the second link so you could see what the Marriage License Bonds are.
It could be a mixed marriage.
I only noticed you had the deaths after I posted them.
We usually complain people don't give enough information in their posts but in your case there is so much it can be bit difficult to take it all in. :D
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Hi Sinann,
Thank you for your reply! I am a little confused by the reference to the Catholic Marriage you mentioned and that there may be two different couples, one Catholic and the other Protestant.
I haven't see the children's baptisms yet but neither your or Barry Bradfield used the name Bardfield for Ann when posting about the baptisms so I was just voicing concern, some couples divide up their children's baptisms between both churches, so it may be you can only find the RC ones and not the COI ones.
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Link to other post by barrybradfield-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=421748.msg5425433#msg5425433
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1) Are Ahinagh and Aghinagh the same parish/place in county Cork, just with a variation of spelling?
The different spelling is rather confusing.
The OSI mapviewer give the Historic Parish as Aghinagh but the list of COI registers gives the spelling as Ahinagh.
Generally the Historic or Civil Parish is the same area as the COI parish. See image below.
The RC parish of Aghinagh includes the Civil Parish of Aghinagh and the Civil Parish of Macroom. (at least in part)
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=0004&county=&church_name=Aghinagh
Macroom RC parish also includes the civil parishes of Aghinagh and Macroom
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=0077&county=&church_name=Macroom
So while the COI parish of Aghinagh/Ahinagh and the RC parish of Aghinagh are in the same place the RC parish is bigger.
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h
I wanted to let you know that the births I looked up on the Macroom Register were derived from a link on www.durrushhistory.com and that register is referred to as Church of Ireland, and the three births for
Ah, I messed up completely, I didn't think any of those registers survived so I assumed they were RC baptisms.
My bad sorry.
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Hi Sinann,
You have been very helpful to me and I appreciate it! I had a question about the marriage bond license book of Cork and Ross where the marriage bond for James Good and Anne. Can you explain what types of marriages are in it (Protestant, Catholic, Mixed) and was the authority that produced the book Protestant or Catholic?
Where are the possible places that the couple (James and Ann Good) would have been married? I guess I need to find out which Ann did James Good marry, if it was Ann Bradfield? Also, where did this marriage occur? I don't see it in the Macroom register. I would imagine that it would be in a neighboring parish. I can't imagine that she would have come from too far away?
Thank you - Caroline NJ
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Hi Aghadowey,
Thank you very much for the details you have provided. I am sorry for not providing the correct link for the durrushhistory.com website location as you correctly pointed out! :-)
There does seem to be disruptions - interruptions in the Macroom Register. I found a record for the passing of Rev'd Simon Davies. His burial is recorded as Buried Revd Simon Davies Rector of the Parish of Macroom aged 68 years on March 23, 1830. The Baptisms for this period (1831-1834) are less frequent and there is notation that for the 1834-1837 period the records are on loose pages. The quality of the record entries also fall dramatically after mid-1830. It is especially telling with the burial records. A typical entry for a burial record (actually one of the less descriptive ones) as an example "Died in Macroom Mrs. Mary Riggs widow, aged 90 years, Buried the 6th in Ahinah". After the Rector dies the entries for burials are often only the name of the person that was buried, nothing else.
It seems in the interim the Curate, Richard Davies has filled in (Simon's son?) has filled in and then in 1834, there is a new Rector, J.M. Hallaran. If Rebecca was born towards the end of estimated time period I figured that she could have been born (1827-1832) then the record could easily have been omitted because of these disruptions.
Besides the fact that the Rector could have gotten forgetful due to getting older and/or sickly, and not recorded some records, Could the reason be that family decided to attend a different church in the area? There is nothing recorded after the baptism of James' and Anne's daughter, Sarah on January 20, 1825. and I am assuming that there were some other births besides the birth of Rebecca during the time period. Just wondering if there is any other way I can check for Rebecca's birth and I was also curious if you think, based on the information I provided, that it is a good possibility that she was born to this family?
Also, I see that you provided the link here to Barry Bradfield's post. Thank you! I am wondering where he got the information on the James Good - Ann Bradfield marriage in 1816. It is not in the Macroom Register and I am assuming that they were married in her parish. I think that the RootsChat policy is that you cannot Private message other members until you have had three posts in the forum so perhaps I will post a reply in his Post to see if I can get an answer from him.
I have to go but will be back later to check on the post. Again, thank you for your advice and information!
Caroline NJ
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Hi Sinann,
You have been very helpful to me and I appreciate it! I had a question about the marriage bond license book of Cork and Ross where the marriage bond for James Good and Anne. Can you explain what types of marriages are in it (Protestant, Catholic, Mixed) and was the authority that produced the book Protestant or Catholic?
Where are the possible places that the couple (James and Ann Good) would have been married? I guess I need to find out which Ann did James Good marry, if it was Ann Bradfield? Also, where did this marriage occur? I don't see it in the Macroom register. I would imagine that it would be in a neighboring parish. I can't imagine that she would have come from too far away?
Thank you - Caroline NJ
I only know what it says on the web site, that the marriages are Protestant and the license was granted by the ecclesiastical courts of the Church of Ireland.
Marriages usually took place in the brides parish.
You know the marriage happened in 1816 so I guess you need to see if records for Ahinagh and or Macroom survive for that time.
As Barry Bradfield had MLB after the marriage it would appear he got the information from the same index of Marriage License Bonds as I did and not from a parish register.
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Hi Sinann,
Unfortunately, no records exist for Ahinagh Parish (where Rebecca's immediate family lived) or for Aglish (where her husband William Harold's family hailed from). According to the RCB list of parish registers, both of these parishes are color-coded grey which means the records were destroyed in 1922 and no copies were kept elsewhere. Not looking too good for delving farther back into these two branches of the family tree.
I am not giving up yet, though and will continue with other avenues!
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Hi Aghadowey,
Thank you for your advice concerning Rebecca Good's marriage certificate. I might go ahead and order a copy of it to see what Parish she was married in. Hopefully, once I have the Parish, I can find out the name of the church she was married in. The names of the sponsors and other clues might be provided as well.
If you would happen to know the names of the Church of Ireland churches that served the parishes of Macroom and Ahinagh during the 1850s and could let me know, that would be great!
Thanks again for all your help!
Caroline NJ
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The marriage certificate will list where the marriage took place.
See here for ordering 'research copy'-
http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2015/07/new-combined-application-form-for-gro.html
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Thank you, Aghadowey!
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Just wondering how you have progressed with your Good ancestry?
I have a Peter Good b. 1811, Macroom. Married Alice Good and immigrated to Tasmania in 1838. There is a possibility that his parents were William & Rebecca Good of Ahinagh.
Peter had the following brothers and sisters (confirmed); Samuel (1824-1858), school master at Pembrokeshire; Francis (1802-1861), Governor Smithfield Prison; Catherine (Kate) (1830-1907) governess, unmarried; Rebecca (1817), unknown and possibly James b. 1816 who also immigrated to Tasmania but I not sure if he is related to Peter or Alice.
They were all educated and William (their father) may have been a Customs Officer/Clerk.
James Good m. Mary Anne Saunders and their 4 children were born in Ireland - Susannah 1842, Matilda 1850, Rebecca Banfield 1851 & Samuel Saunders in 1854.
Peter Good's children were William b. 1834 and Mary 1837 in Ireland; and then John, Catherine, Alice, Samuel, Peter & Rachael in Tasmania.
Do any of these names ring any bells?