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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Rochdalian on Friday 15 September 17 03:53 BST (UK)

Title: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Rochdalian on Friday 15 September 17 03:53 BST (UK)
Hi

I'm looking for someone willing to have a go at translating a Danish church book marriage record from 1832 please.

If there is anyone out there willing to have a go please let me know and I will post an image.

Thanks

Bob
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Mowsehowse on Friday 15 September 17 06:34 BST (UK)
My favourite auto translator comes up with helpful boxes if you put "translate Danish to English" into google. That will help you to get the gist of it hopefully.
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Isabel H on Friday 15 September 17 09:40 BST (UK)
Post the image (or just the details) so I can take a look. Handwriting from that date usually defeats me but I can try.
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Rochdalian on Friday 15 September 17 10:16 BST (UK)
Right, thanks both of you for your interest.  Here is the image, it is the marriage between Jens Jensen Boisen/Boysen & Inger Marie Neilsen Moller in 1832 in Osby Denmark.
Cheers
Bob
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Isabel H on Friday 15 September 17 17:00 BST (UK)
Hmm, challenging! There is quite a lot I can't read, but sometimes when I go back to it I start to see a bit more. 
Where is this doc. from? I'm slightly puzzled, as the date on it is 2 June, but when I looked up the marriage on Arkivalieronline to see if there was another copy in different writing, I found an entry for it in the Kontraministerialbog which gives the date as 13 October 1832. See below.

I'm struggling with the Note at the end of your doc., and wondering if the marriage was delayed because of vaccination requirements, or something else?

Here is what I make of it so far:
1832  2 June
Jens Jensen Boysen, a son of ___ [possibly aftaeg(smand) which means retired/pensioner] ___ Jens __ and his wife Mette Marie/Maria Jens(datte)r(?) in Hajstrup  with Inger Marie Nielsen Møller, a dau. of Niels Kristian(?) Jensen Møller and his wife Katarina Maria née Sørensen in Øsby.
Witnesses: __ Nissen(?) in Øsby
Friedereich ___ in Hajstrup(?)
M___ Momsen from Ultang
Ingeborg Jensen in Øsby

Here's the alternative record:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217526#203045,38508902 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217526#203045,38508902)

13 Oct. 1832
Jens Jensen Boysen, bachelor, a son of pensioner(?) Jens Nielsen(?) and Mette Maria Jensd(atte)r(?) of Hajstrup(?) and single woman Inger Maria Nielsen Møller a dau. of ___ ___ Christian(?) Møller and his wife Mette(?) Maria née Sørensen in Øsby

If anyone can add to this, please do!



Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Mowsehowse on Friday 15 September 17 17:33 BST (UK)
Oh crikey... yes, I do see the difficulty!!  :o
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: jamcat95 on Friday 15 September 17 18:02 BST (UK)
Hi
Here is another record of the same marriage - nr 7:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217522#203041,38507451

Adding a few names:
Iver Nilsen
Friedereich Schutt
Madame Momsen

Ian

Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Isabel H on Friday 15 September 17 20:09 BST (UK)
Thanks Ian. I see that one is also dated 2 June and includes the Note.

I've found Bob's doc. in a section of the church book that is headed Desponsati. 

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217526#203045,38508874 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217526#203045,38508874)

The one dated 13 Oct 1832 is later in the same book under the heading Copulati.   Do Desponsati and Copulati both mean Marriages, or does the former mean Banns/Betrothal?  So perhaps betrothed in June and married in October?
 
 
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 16 September 17 00:13 BST (UK)
Thanks everybody, we never realised that there would be more than one version of this event.

I think Isabel you are right when you speculate about Desponsati & Copulati.  Schoolboy Latin and Google translate come up with Espoused for Desponsati which could mean in this case betrothed.  Using the same method Copulati means Copulate which I take to mean marriage!

Bob
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Isabel H on Saturday 16 September 17 09:33 BST (UK)
As regards the alternative copies, after 1812-1814 it was a requirement that two copies of Parish Registers should be kept in different places, to avoid loss by fire, flood, mice, etc. -
 Hovedministerialbog (main copy) and Kontraministerialbog (copy).

Google translate didn't come up with a translation for Despensati when I tried it!  ::). 
Copulati is just one of several terms used for marriages, Ægteviede is another.


Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: jamcat95 on Saturday 16 September 17 09:56 BST (UK)
Desponsati:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/desponsatus#Latin


Ian

Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Brilau on Saturday 16 September 17 10:09 BST (UK)
JENS JENSEN BOYSEN, en Søn af afdøde
Inderst Jens Nielsen og Kone: Mette Marie Jensen
i Haystrup, med INGER MARIE NIELSEN
MØLLER, en Datter af Indersten Niels Chr-
stian Jensen Møller og Konen: Kathrina Maria
født Sørensen i Oesbye.
Testes:
Iwer? Nissen i Hyrup
Friederich Schult i Haystrup
Madame MOMSEN paa Ultang
Ingeborg Jensen i Oesbye.

Nota: Eet af Skomagersvend Nicolaus Heinrich
Stuk I Oesbye imod forbenævnte Inger M. N.
Møller under 28de Mai a.c. udvirket inhibi-
torium blev under 30de Mai ej:a. ophævet
Herr Pastor Braun i Halk har under 27de Mai
udstædt Tilladelse til, at Troelovelsen, uagtet Bruden
tjener i Halk Sogn, maa ske i Oesbye.


Jens Jensen Boysen, a son of the late
renter Jens Nielsen and wife Mette Marie Jensen
in Hajstrup, with Inger Marie Nielsen
Møller, a daughter of the renter Niels Christian
Jensen Møller and the wife Kathrina Maria
née Sørensen i Øsby.
Witnesses:
Iwer? Nissen in Hyrup
Friederich Schult in Hajstrup
Madame Momsen on Ultang
Ingeborg Jensen in Oesbye.

A by shoemaker journeyman Nicolaus Heinrich
Stuk in Øsby against the above-mentioned Inger M. N.
Møller on the 28th of May obtained cease and desist
was annulled the 30th of May.
Mr. Pastor Braun in Halk had the 27th of May
issued a permission that the betrothal, despite the fact
that the bride is serving in Halk Parish, can take place in Øsby.

Brian

Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Rochdalian on Saturday 16 September 17 23:54 BST (UK)
Hi All

Thank you very much Brian for the translation it all makes some kind of sense now, and thank you all you had an input.

Going back to earlier posts about terminology, I came across Defuncti for deaths - that just tickled my fancy ;D

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 17 September 17 01:36 BST (UK)
What is a renter ? A petitioner ???

Is it a request to marry in a different parish
Or an annulment of a wedding

The bride residing In halk  parish  ( not serving time there as in a prison sentence !)

I wonder if it's like English banns that used to be read in the parish 3 times before the actual wedding .they require dispensation from that duty .

Do let us know your final conclusion about the meaning and what you know of these people
I love the idea of a travelling shoe maker .
Title: Re: Translation Please - Danish to English
Post by: Isabel H on Sunday 17 September 17 09:26 BST (UK)
What is a renter ? A petitioner ???

Is it a request to marry in a different parish
Or an annulment of a wedding

The bride residing In halk  parish  ( not serving time there as in a prison sentence !)

I wonder if it's like English banns that used to be read in the parish 3 times before the actual wedding .they require dispensation from that duty .

Do let us know your final conclusion about the meaning and what you know of these people
I love the idea of a travelling shoe maker .

A renter would be a tenant, someone who rents rather than owns property.

Not sure about the "cease and desist". There seems to have been an objection to the marriage, or to the betrothal ceremony taking place in Øsby.  Betrothal was a serious commitment to marry.

The bride did reside in Halk parish, but the word "tjener" shows she was in service there as a domestic/farm servant.  May have seemed like a prison sentence! ;D

And while it's nice to imagine the shoemaker travelling around, in reality he probably didn't, as a Journeyman is just someone who has completed an apprenticeship.

Isabel