RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jackie hubbard on Tuesday 05 September 17 21:47 BST (UK)
-
I have hit a brick wall with James Cartwright, born about 1771. I believed he was born in Warwickshire but, on closer examination of the 1841 Census, it appears there is an N next to his name in the Born in the County column. James married Maria (Taylor) Bartholomew at St. Martin, Birmingham in 1822. In 1841, he was living on Bread St., Birmingham. He died in Birmingham in 1847. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
-
The GRO index gives the death of a James Cartwright aged 66 in Birmingham in 1847,giving a birth date of approx 1781,despite the 1841 census giving 1771.It doesn't help the fundamental problem though.It would still make him 40+ at the marriage to Maria.It's possible he may have been married before-but equally difficult to find.
Regards
Roger
-
The nearest 1781 birth I can find to Birmingham is Brierley Hill Staffordshire,or for 1780 in Darlaston,Wolverhampton,both on FamilySearch.
Regards
Roger
-
Thanks, Roger. I did find a Death Certificate for James Cartwright, d. 17 May, 1847. Age at death: 76. He was living on Cregoe St., Birmingham. Present at Death: John Cartwright (son). Yesterday, I found a James Cartwright, b. 1771, in the UK, Royal Hospital, Chelsea, Regimental Registers of Pensioners Who Served in Canada, 1713-1882. This James Cartwright, who was also a Cordwainer, was b. in Burrington, Herefordshire, abt. 1771. Unfortunately, I am having trouble reading it and cannot attach it for you to look at. However, I would appreciate any thoughts you might have.
-
I have seen a record for that James Cartwright but there are no details that would help.I did wonder whether there may be some family naming tradition to help.The son John has sons Daniel and George,but I can't find a strong fit for either of these as a father of James.I haven't traced Emma.There is so little to go on I'm not sure what basis to use for searching other than the date which then makes it difficult to confirm any connection,as I'm sure you know.The same issues apply to finding a connected will.
Regards
Roger
-
Thanks, Roger. I, too, have looked at the names and find no connection. Considering the fact that James was over 50 when he married, I would have thought he would have named his first son after himself. When I first looked at the 1841 Census, I thought he was born in Warwickshire. However, it now appears that what I thought was a Y is an N. He died before the 1851 Census, so it really is a dead end. Regards, Jackie.
-
Not necessarily.Are there any recorded witnesses recorded at the 1822 marriage who may be related?
Also,there is a newspaper snippet of 1831 recording the dissolution of a partnership between a George Souter and William Cartwright,button makers of 14 Bread Street.James' son John ks given as a button maker in the 1841 census so perhaps William was family.I can't find him on the 1841 census.A very long shot has a William Cartwright dying in Birmingham(though in Princess Street) in 1833 aged 71,therefore born approx 1762-a reasonable date for a brother of John?
I'll look to see if I can find a common parentage for a William(1762) and John(1771).
Regards
Roger
-
On reflection William(circa1826) is unlikely to be he son of William(1762),but it is still worthwhile looking for a family with John(1771)and William(unknown) as brothers.
Regards
Roger
-
The witnesses to the 1822 Marriage are William Fisher and Mary Tinsley. Interesting about the button maker/Bread St. connection. In the 1841 Census, John is an Apprentice Button Maker -- he later became a Bedstead Maker and then a Cabinet Maker-- and the family is living on Bread St. (No. 1).
-
The witnesses to the 1822 Marriage are William Fisher and Mary Tinsley. Interesting about the button maker/Bread St. connection. In the 1841 Census, John is an Apprentice Button Maker -- he later became a Bedstead Maker and then a Cabinet Maker-- and the family is living on Bread St. (No. 1). I wonder, although the partnership had been dissolved in 1831, was William still in business on his own in 1841? The names William and James seems to run through the family. Arthur Cartwright b. 1866, had three sons: Arthur, William and James. His father was John Cartwright and James Cartwright was his grandfather.
Not necessarily.Are there any recorded witnesses recorded at the 1822 marriage who may be related?
Also,there is a newspaper snippet of 1831 recording the dissolution of a partnership between a George Souter and William Cartwright,button makers of 14 Bread Street.James' son John ks given as a button maker in the 1841 census so perhaps William was family.I can't find him on the 1841 census.A very long shot has a William Cartwright dying in Birmingham(though in Princess Street) in 1833 aged 71,therefore born approx 1762-a reasonable date for a brother of John?
I'll look to see if I can find a common parentage for a William(1762) and John(1771).
Regards
Roger
-
The witnesses to the 1822 Marriage are William Fisher and Mary Tinsley. Interesting about the button maker/Bread St. connection. In the 1841 Census, John is an Apprentice Button Maker -- he later became a Bedstead Maker and then a Cabinet Maker-- and the family is living on Bread St. (No. 1). I wonder, although the partnership had been dissolved in 1831, was William still in business on his own in 1841? The names William and James seems to run through the family. Arthur Cartwright b. 1866, had three sons: Arthur, William and James. Arthur was the son of John Cartwright and James Cartwright was his grandfather.
Not necessarily.Are there any recorded witnesses recorded at the 1822 marriage who may be related?
Also,there is a newspaper snippet of 1831 recording the dissolution of a partnership between a George Souter and William Cartwright,button makers of 14 Bread Street.James' son John ks given as a button maker in the 1841 census so perhaps William was family.I can't find him on the 1841 census.A very long shot has a William Cartwright dying in Birmingham(though in Princess Street) in 1833 aged 71,therefore born approx 1762-a reasonable date for a brother of John?
I'll look to see if I can find a common parentage for a William(1762) and John(1771).
Regards
Roger
-
I think George Souter carried on the business as he went bankrupt in the early 1840s.This fact,combined with not being able to identify William in the 1841 census,perhaps increases the likelihood that the 1833 death is his.However,I haven't been able to identify a pair of brothers as suggested.
Regards
Roger
-
James Cartwright has proven very illusive. I keep examining the 1841 Census and the Y and N, which are so close, and am not totally convinced either way. Wishful thinking, I know. There are two other names on the 1841 Census (Julia Freath and Elizabeth Parkes) but they were both born in Warwickshire. The fact that the Cartwrights seem to pull names out of a hat also doesn't help. Very frustrating! You have given me a lot to think about. Regards, Jackie
-
I have just taken another look at the 1841 Census. James' son, William, is also listed as not being born in Warwickshire. Not sure what to make of it yet.
-
I assumed,by the way he is listed,that William is not a son of James,but probably a relative(e.g. a grandson of William,erstwhile partner of George Souter,if that William died in 1833.
It is difficult to be entirely confident of the "born in county" status.
Regards
Roger
-
I agree about the Census. Both of my great-grandparents were born in Cheshire, as were most of their children. They later moved to Tyldesley, and at least one Census lists everyone as being born there. Another frustrating thing about the Cartwrights: John Cartwright is a direct ancestry and, while I have been able to find Baptism Records for his sisters, he is as elusive as his father, James.
-
Hi Roger, I hope you're still out there and willing to look at one more record for James Cartwright, born c. 1771. Quick recap: 1841 Census lists James with a (likely) N next to his name. We looked at the UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges and an entry for James Cartwright, born c. 1771 (age 43) in Burrington, Herefordshire. His occupation was listed as Cordwainer (same as James Cartwright in 1841 Census). I have re-examined the Chelsea Pensioner record and think that the O.P. next to his name stands for Out Pensioner (Not attached to the hospital). I have found another entry for James Cartwright in the Regimental Registers of Pensioners: Residence, Birmingham, and, in the 1847 column, "died 17/5" My great-great grandfather James Cartwright died 17 May, 1847 in Birmingham at the age of 76. His occupation on the death entry: Boot and Shoemaker, a Pensioner. Could that be an O.P. Chelsea Pensioner?