RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Hirondelle on Monday 07 August 17 01:46 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I'm trying to track down a relative called Eliza Ching nee Redmond. She was born in Liverpool in 1871 to Michael Redmond and Elizabeth Ann Radford.
I just by chance today discovered that she married to a gentleman called James Ching in 1889. I'm aware that Ching is a surname associated with Devon & Cornwall but the fact that Jame's father is named as Ah Jim on their marriage bann led me to believe James was possibly Chinese.
I also tried working out the street but I can't read the handwriting. I have also searched via occupation, with various different spellings of the name, no children with the surname Ching appear to have been registered in Liverpool.
I can't find any trace of them at all, leading me to think they migrated. Any thoughts?
Thank you
-
Residence at time of marriage is 9 St. Vincent Street
Annie
-
Thank you, that's what I thought. I'll check how near that is to the church which has since been demolished I believe and if that street appears on the 1891 census.
-
I noticed it was a Jewish Church wedding i.e. not sure they would be of Chinese origin?
Annie
Edit....I was thinking Judaism but Mr Google confirms the above ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China
-
I think that word is parish, it looks like the same as the parish written at the top of the page.
EDIT.
Hmm possibly? There are lots of Chinese names on the 1911 census for Liverpool, I tried searching the crews list too as his occupation is steward. I could be completely wrong though Ah Jim Ching could be transcribed incorrectly, I can't find a registration for a James Ching in 1855 either. And no one on Ancestry appears to have picked up on this either, their research for Eliza Redmond ends in 1881.
Can anyone make out the surname of the witness?
-
I think that word is parish, it looks like the same as the parish written at the top of the page.
Yes it is, no wonder it didn't say Synagogue which confused me ;D
Annie
-
Can anyone make out the surname of the witness?
The witnesses look like:
Peter Chungting & Maria Eliza Moilt ???
Maybe a little help?
Annie
-
Marriage: 29 Dec 1866 St George, Derby Square, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Kelly - Full, Warehouseman, Batchelor, 15 William St, Dale St
Elizabeth Ching - Full, Spinster, Olive Mount, Wavertree
Groom's Father: John Kelly, Farmer
Bride's Father: Thomas Ching, Mason
Witness: John Parker; Elizabeth Ollis
Married by Banns by: J S Thomas
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1868, Page 239, Entry 477
Source: LDS Film 1656195
see if Elizabeth Ching is in Liverpool in 1851 and 1861 census - may show other family members ?
ADDED
Mary Ching b 1836 Liverpool
Sarah Ching b 1840 Liverpool
Jessie Edith Ching baptised 27th sept 1881 St Peter ,Liverpool
father James Dark Ching
mother Mary Jane .............
same couple have John L Ching 1877 b Liverpool
.......................................................................................
William G Ching b 1978 b Liverpool
Emily C Ching b 1880 b Liverpool
have a look on www.familysearch.org .. - a lot of records for Ching in Liverpool
good luck
:)
-
A bit off subject but:
Peter Chungting d. Liverpool 1894, bc 1845.
Peter Chungting d. Liverpool 1890, bc 1886, maybe his son. Cant find this Peter born 1885-1887 on GRO.
On Anc*, Peter Chungting, a storekeeper of 31 Frederick St, Liverpool.
I cant see the first Peter on the 1891.
I have only a vague experience with Chinese name research. It was often written in a western hand how it sounded.
The OH once told me something about the 'Ah' as in Ah Jim. If I can add any extra I will EDIT later.
bitzar.
-
hirondelle
If I'm looking at the correct families on the 1881 and 1891, the 1891 lists a daughter to Michael and Elizabeth REDMOND named Elizabeth, aged 1. I know its possible to have a daughter named Eliza and another named Elizabeth.... BUT, is it possible that Eliza CHING died shortly after marriage and her parents named another child Elizabeth?!
I cant see her death though!
bitzar.
-
Hi,
Found a christening at All Saints, Liverpool for a William James Shuin on 12 Sep 1900 son of James Shuin and Elizabeth. This was on Family search. Can't find a birth in GRO index or FreeBMD so could be mis-transcribed.
Ray
-
The OH thinks its a bit odd that a son would refer to his father as 'Ah' as in Ah Jim! Also note that Ah Jim doesn't have a surname.
Ah is a term that is normally used to call people by their first name like Ah John or Ah Nigel. It wouldn't normally be used in conjunction with a surname as in Ah Jones or Ah Richardson.
It's most likely a Cantonese term, so Hong Kong or Southern China (Guangdong / Canton).
Then again, I could be totes wrong!
bitzar.
-
I think that word is parish, it looks like the same as the parish written at the top of the page.
Yes it is, no wonder it didn't say Synagogue which confused me ;D
Annie
I think it actually says in the Jewish Church within the parish of St Simon. It does not look quite the same as Parish of at the top of the page
-
The certificate has been signed by a curate and reads 'according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church' so it is a parish church (Church of England).
Jewish ceremonies take place in a synagogue.
-
I wondered if as in a marriage in RC church a registar had to be there. A bit fanciful I know that that could have been the curate. However having looked at the next pages in the register I agree that it is is probably parish.
-
Marriage: 29 Dec 1866 St George, Derby Square, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Kelly - Full, Warehouseman, Batchelor, 15 William St, Dale St
Elizabeth Ching - Full, Spinster, Olive Mount, Wavertree
Groom's Father: John Kelly, Farmer
Bride's Father: Thomas Ching, Mason
Witness: John Parker; Elizabeth Ollis
Married by Banns by: J S Thomas
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1868, Page 239, Entry 477
Source: LDS Film 1656195
see if Elizabeth Ching is in Liverpool in 1851 and 1861 census - may show other family members ?
ADDED
Mary Ching b 1836 Liverpool
Sarah Ching b 1840 Liverpool
Jessie Edith Ching baptised 27th sept 1881 St Peter ,Liverpool
father James Dark Ching
mother Mary Jane .............
same couple have John L Ching 1877 b Liverpool
.......................................................................................
William G Ching b 1978 b Liverpool
Emily C Ching b 1880 b Liverpool
have a look on www.familysearch.org .. - a lot of records for Ching in Liverpool
good luck
:)
Thank you :)
The couple were married in 1889 so unfortunately these records aren't a match. I think that because one of their witnesses is called Peter Chungting it does seem like a Chinese link rather than the British surname Ching which is geographically associated with Devon.
-
Hi,
Found a christening at All Saints, Liverpool for a William James Shuin on 12 Sep 1900 son of James Shuin and Elizabeth. This was on Family search. Can't find a birth in GRO index or FreeBMD so could be mis-transcribed.
Ray
Thank you! I did find this on the census after you suggested it but it looks like it's a Scottish surname that was misheard as there is a William James Shewein on the 1901 census with the correct age and parents named Eliza and James. But good spot though, thank you!
-
Something else has struck me too, that it appears Eliza lied about her age on the marriage bann, I have her date of birth on her baptism as 1871 yet on the marriage bann her year of birth would be 1869.
I wonder if she didn't have parental permission and perhaps lied?
I did worry that perhaps all of my research has been wrong that I have the wrong Michael Redmond as her father, but consistently through the census there is a Michael Redmond married to Elizabeth Redmond with carter or cart owner as his occupation.
-
A bit off subject but:
Peter Chungting d. Liverpool 1894, bc 1845.
Peter Chungting d. Liverpool 1890, bc 1886, maybe his son. Cant find this Peter born 1885-1887 on GRO.
On Anc*, Peter Chungting, a storekeeper of 31 Frederick St, Liverpool.
I cant see the first Peter on the 1891.
I have only a vague experience with Chinese name research. It was often written in a western hand how it sounded.
The OH once told me something about the 'Ah' as in Ah Jim. If I can add any extra I will EDIT later.
bitzar.
This is really useful, thank you. And yes Ancestry have transcribed the father as Ah Jim Ching.
-
I actually know this one.
"Ah" isn't part of the name per se.
Saying Ah-name to the chinese is like when we change James to Jamie, Charles to Charlie, John to Johnny, Peter to Pete, David to Dave, etc.
-
Oh that makes sense as Jim is also short for James.
-
Sorry i can't help you particularly but this just adds to the big picture.
Peter Chunting married Emily Moitt in 1884.
He is described as a Steward but his father is described as John Chunting, Chinese Governor (I think)
A witness is William My.
1881 3607/80/49
Emily Moitt is with her mother Mary E who I think might be the witness to your marriage.
A boarder in the house is How An, a ship's cook born China.
-
And the witness to their marriage is Eliza Cheng. ???
-
This thread https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12505 (https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12505)
is interesting too seems their witness Peter Chungting/Chunting turns up on a few documents.
-
Mary Eliza Moitt's maiden name was Cheney so the witness is possibly Eliza Cheney rather than Ching.
-
Yes looking at it again it does look like Cheney, thank you :)
-
Something else has struck me too, that it appears Eliza lied about her age on the marriage bann, I have her date of birth on her baptism as 1871 yet on the marriage bann her year of birth would be 1869.
I wonder if she didn't have parental permission and perhaps lied?
I did worry that perhaps all of my research has been wrong that I have the wrong Michael Redmond as her father, but consistently through the census there is a Michael Redmond married to Elizabeth Redmond with carter or cart owner as his occupation. perhaps it was to lessen the age gap between herself and James
People often lied about their age on marriage but in this case giving age 20 would not have exempted her from parental permission as the age of consent was 21
-
ok so james ching was born in 1874 in bideford, confirmed by 1911, freebmd and also the gro, which gave the mums surname as being lacey, only marriage I can find is this one
Jun 1874
CHING Richard Eastman Bideford 5b 910
Lacey Sarah Bideford 5b 910
sooooooooooooo could this be where the ah came from (put Devonian accent on and say it and then expect a scouser that maybe having trouble with spelling (as many did have trouble))
-
Hello,
Thank you for replying and looking up some records!
Unfortunately James Ching was born in 1855, his age is listed as being 34 in 1889 on the marriage bann. One of the witnesses was called Peter Chungting who married a woman called Emily.
On another forum for Liverpool history someone related to Emily found the below, her family had links to Singapore, I think her mother gave her occupation as relating to Chinese interests.
Peter Chunting, steward, full age
Marriage Date: 5 Jan 1884, 141 fredrick st?
Parish: Liverpool St Luke
Spouse's Name: Emily Moitt, age 19
Father's Name: John Chunting, Chinese Governor
Spouse Father's Name: William Henry Woitt, steward
From the same forum "1891 census at 13 Liver Street RG12/2910 f88 p18 ( which doesn't seem to be aviailable on Ancestry):
Peter Chung Ting head 45 Ship's Steward, China
Emily do wife 24, Litherland
Ahlan do daur 3, Liverpool
+ 4 chinese lodgers "
So it seems that the link is Chinese rather than Devon. I've still failed to find any trace of them , I wondered if they changed their name to something easier. James Ching does come up on some New York records as crew and passengers so perhaps they did migrate. It's odd that no one else I am related to has picked up on this at all though.
-
I was using the info found for them both on the 1911 cencus, and that is where I got his age and place of birth from
-
So it seems that the link is Chinese rather than Devon. I've still failed to find any trace of them , I wondered if they changed their name to something easier. James Ching does come up on some New York records as crew and passengers so perhaps they did migrate. It's odd that no one else I am related to has picked up on this at all though.
Have you noted William H MOITT was born in Singapore and was a mariner? You can find him listed on Liverpool Ships Crew. Was his house a B&B for the crew of the ship's he was on?
According to the baptism Peter Chung Ting was a boarding house keeper
Emily Louisa Chung Ting
BIRTH: 15 Feb
BAPTISM: 11 May 1890 - Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
This marriage has the father as Peter Chung Ting
Ah Lan Caroline Chung Ting
SPOUSE: William Young Lai
BIRTH: 1885
MARRIAGE: 5 Jul 1904 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
RESIDENCE: Liverpool, Lancashire,
NAME: Charles W Y Lai
MOTHER: Chung Ting ( Ah Lan Caroline as mother?)
BIRTH: Jul 1911 - Liverpool, Lancashire
-
Sorry yes Singapore here in this case.
I've been looking up the history of Chinese migration to Liverpool and I can find a lot of evidence on the 1911 census, Frederick Street was an area where a lot of the Chinese community lived. Peter Chung Ting who was a witness to the marriage of Eliza Redmond to James Ching lived on Frederick Street. I can find evidence of witness to the marriage bann,but no evidence of the actual people who got married! I'm just looking at Maria Moitt on the 1901 census now, she had two visitors from Japan living with her!
James Ching gave his occupation as steward, I have two sides of my family who worked extensively on the ships in Liverpool yet it seems James Ching doesn't come up on any of the crew lists. I was wondering if after marriage he reverted to a version of his name that wasn't Romanised eg below.
'Ching, a Cantonese romanization of the Chinese surname Cheng
Chng or Ch'ng, the POJ romanization of the Chinese surname Zhuang
Ching, a Minnan romanization of the Chinese surname Zhuang'
But again when I tried searching these variations it didn't come up with anything. Obviously typing in just James and Eliza (with variations in case she changed to go by Elizabeth) throws up lots of hits but narrowing it down to the area of Liverpool still didn't seem to yield anything.
I've tried searching the street that was given on the original bann I've attached a crop of this, it's most likely St Vincent Street.
Thank you to everyone who has tried to help so far.
-
Name: Emily Chung Ting
[Emily Chung Moitt]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Age: 38
Birth Date: 1873
Marriage Date: 1 Jun 1911
Marriage Place: St. Peter'S Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: William Henry Moitt
Spouse: Ah Pooh Yee Shee Foo Ships Steward
Witnesses Ah Lan Young Lai & Wong Hing?
Both living Frederick Street
-
Name: Emily Chung Ting
[Emily Chung Moitt]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Age: 38
Birth Date: 1873
Marriage Date: 1 Jun 1911
Marriage Place: St. Peter'S Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: William Henry Moitt
Spouse: Ah Pooh Yee Shee Foo Ships Steward
Witnesses Ah Lan Young Lai & Wong Hing?
Both living Frederick Street
I found this last night too thank you, I used the above witnesses to confirm that the Ching surname wasn't from Devon. But still no trace of James Ching or Eliza Ching nee Redmond. I think I might just have to give up on it. I searched for them by street on the 1891 census they were no longer at St Vincent Street.
-
I think that there might have been more Anglo-Chinese marriages than might be thought. I found a relative who married a Mr Lee - and when I went into the family, he was Chinese. At first it wasn't evident, from initials and surname. It was only when I came upon marriage record that I got his full name, and later original country.
-
There is actually a very sad story connected to British women marrying Chinese men, after the war many of them were repatriated by the British government leaving their wives and family behind. There's more information here http://www.halfandhalf.org.uk/lcc.htm
I find it strange on Ancestry, distant relatives have also listed Eliza, but I seem to be the only one who has discovered this marriage record.
-
I have William Henry Moitt and the Foo Lee family in my family tree. I'm from Liverpool