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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Joanna Tolhurst on Sunday 31 July 05 23:52 BST (UK)

Title: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Sunday 31 July 05 23:52 BST (UK)
Almost midnight on the 31st July here in Aberdeen and I've been brave, foolhardy or plain mad to host the challenge again  ::)

Somewhat different area of the country to last month:

RG11  5149/128 page 3
Philip Bell  age 60 joiner born Upper Denton Cumberland

Wasn't Denton in the 'Inspector Frost' series?

Have fun.
Jo
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:00 BST (UK)
Here's all the family in 1881:-


 Philip BELL   Head   M   Male   60   Upper Denton, Cumberland, England   Joiner     
 Margaret BELL   Wife   M   Female   54   Upper Denton, Cumberland, England   Joiner Wife     
 Anthony BELL   Son   U   Male   21   Haltwhistle, Northumberland, England   Joiner     
 John BELL   Son      Male   14   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England   Scholar     


Midgeholme, Cumberland, England
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: steve_cov on Monday 01 August 05 00:02 BST (UK)
Well here they all are in 1891:

RG12/4280/95

Midgeholme Village

Philip BELL - Head - M - 74 - Retired Joiner - Cumberland, Denton
Margaret BELL - Wife - M - 63 -   - Cumberland, Denton
Anthony BELL - Son - M - 31 - Joiner - Northumberland, Haltwhistle
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:04 BST (UK)

Here's a bit of info about Upper Denton:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CUL/UpperDenton/Gaz1868.html
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: steve_cov on Monday 01 August 05 00:05 BST (UK)
And this may be Philip's demise:

SEPTEMBER 1895:
BELL  Philip  78  Haltwhistle  10b 224

Haltwhistle is a few miles only from Midgeholme: right on the Cumberland/Northumberland border.
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:06 BST (UK)
Registration district for Upper Denton:

Brampton
Created 1st July 1837.
Sub-districts : Brampton; Hatton; Walton.
GRO volumes : XXV (1837-51); 10b (1852-1930).
Askerton, Brampton, Burtholme, Carlatton, Castle Carrock, Cumrew, Cumwhitton, Farlam, Geltsdale, Irthington, Kingwater, Midgeholme, Nether Denton, Upper Denton, Walton, Waterhead.
Registers now in Carlisle district.

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 00:10 BST (UK)
http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/m039.htm#credits

Chances are they were joiners in the pit.  Picture on above link of Midgeholme mine.  Looks as if it could be somewhat bleak.
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: steve_cov on Monday 01 August 05 00:12 BST (UK)
Bell sons' births, I assume:

Anthony:
Sep 1859
Haltwhistle 10b 232

John: two candidates
Mar 1867
Haltwhistle 10b 267   

Dec 1867
Haltwhistle  10b 26_
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:18 BST (UK)
I've just had a quick look at Genes Reunited and a member  has a Philip Bell born 1797 in Haltwhistle, Northumberland.  Could be linked to "our" Philip ???
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: steve_cov on Monday 01 August 05 00:19 BST (UK)
1871 Census entry:

RG10/5210/39: Midgeholme

Philip BELL - Head - M - 50 - Joiner - Cumberland, Upper Denton
Margaret BELL - Wife - M - 44 -  - Cumberland, Upper Denton
Jane BELL - Daughter -  - 13 -  - Cumberland, Upper Denton
Anthony BELL - Son -  - 11 - Scholar - Cumberland, Midgeholme
Margaret BELL - Daughter -  - 9 - Scholar - Cumberland, Midgeholme
John BELL - Son -  - 4 -  - Cumberland, Midgeholme
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: DeanNH on Monday 01 August 05 00:20 BST (UK)
1871 RG10/5210
Folio39 page 5 Dist 8e Midgeholm Cumberland
Philip Bell Head Head 50 Joiner Cumberland Upper Denton
Margaret do   wife   44                       do  do
Jane  do          daur 13                     do   do
Anthony do        son  11      scholar           do Midgeholm
Margaret do    daur 9                                   do  do
John           do   son  4                               do  do
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Monday 01 August 05 00:21 BST (UK)
Possible Bell Baptisms, Burials & Marriages in the Denton area of Cumberland. They might be useful later. :)

http://edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/ak/INDEX.HTM
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:27 BST (UK)
I have sent a message to the Genes Reunited member explaining the challenge and inviting them to pop in!.......We will have to wait and see.

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: steve_cov on Monday 01 August 05 00:28 BST (UK)
There is no IGI index reference for Upper Denton, Cumberland, so this entry may be of relevance:

Philip BELL
Christening 15 June 1817
Haltwhistle, Northumberland
Father: Thomas BELL
Mother: Mary
Batch No: P002851

But with a name like Bell, and 26 christenings of children born to Thomas and Mary Bell within 20 years, this may be a red herring.

I think this one might be tougher than last month's...
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: DeanNH on Monday 01 August 05 00:32 BST (UK)
1861
Brampton waterhead cumberland
RG9/3908 folio 20 Page 5
Philip Bell Head Mar 41 Joiner Cumberland, Upper Denton
Margaret do wife Mar 32      Northumberland, Haltwhistle
Jane do    daur 3                       do  do
Anthony do  son 1                       do  do

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:34 BST (UK)
Possible birth for daughter Jane:

June 1859 10b page 361  Registration District Brampton
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 00:39 BST (UK)
Possible birth entries for daughter Margaret:-

All registration district Brampton:

March 1862

10b page 379
10b page 378


Jun 1862

10b page 397

Dec 1862

10b page _77

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: carol80 on Monday 01 August 05 01:46 BST (UK)
Found in Burrow Digger's Link on pge 1
John Bell s Phillip/Margaret  Midgeholme 31 Mar 1867
Confirms Mar 1867 Haltwhistle 10b 267
Bell baptisms St Mary Magdalene Lanercost 1685-1872
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: tommytoronto on Monday 01 August 05 02:11 BST (UK)
there is also a philip bell on IGI  baptised at brampton on Oct 13 and 28 1818 to john and jane bell (just mentioning because he named children john and jane)

Tom
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: tommytoronto on Monday 01 August 05 02:20 BST (UK)
and the john bell mar 31 1867 baptism is also on the IGI - son of Philip and Margaret.

Tom
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: cep on Monday 01 August 05 04:25 BST (UK)
Found in Burrow Digger's Link on pge 1
John Bell s Phillip/Margaret  Midgeholme 31 Mar 1867
Confirms Mar 1867 Haltwhistle 10b 267
Bell baptisms St Mary Magdalene Lanercost 1685-1872

I cannot get involved in this!
But we have a mining engineer, and that's close enough.

http://edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/ak/INDEX.HTM

Baptisms at St. Mary Magdalene, Lanercost - 1685 - 1872

John BELL s Phillip/Margaret Midgeholme 31 Mar 1867


1891 Gateshead   RG12 4177 11 p16
High Team
Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 32, Colliery Engineer, b. Knarsdale, Northumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 33, b. Lambley, Northumberland
Margaret Ann Richardson, dau, sin, 12, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Thomas Henry Richardson, son, sin, 8, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Isaac James Richardson, son, sin, 6, Scholar, b. Greenhead, Northumberland
John Bell, boarder, sin, 24, Joiner, Midgeholme, Cumberland



1901 Gateshead    RG13 4751 14 p20
45 Queen Street
John Bell, head, widower, 34, House Joiner - Carp, b. Lanercost, Cumberland
Thomas Bell, son, sin, 8, b. Gateshead, Durham
Philip Bell, son, sin, 6, b. Gateshead, Durham
John Bell, son, sin, 3, b. Gateshead, Durham
Elizabeth Young, servant, wid, 59, Housekeeper (domestic), b. Blackpool, Lancs


CP
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: carol80 on Monday 01 August 05 04:45 BST (UK)
I have Thomas Richardson in my tree b 1859. I only have his parent's and siblings. A Richardson married in to my Stonehouse family.
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: tommytoronto on Monday 01 August 05 05:09 BST (UK)
well- there are about 8 - 10 Thomas's on Freebmd, but there are only two Philip's. 

One is AMJ 1892 Vol 10a pg 927, the other is more likely -
it matches his age on the census  OND 1894 Vol 10a pg 919

There seems to be 7 options for John (assuming that his age is right at 3).

Tom
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: carol80 on Monday 01 August 05 05:22 BST (UK)
Could this be possible Wife for John From FreeBMD
Hannah Mitchelson Atkinson March 1892 Gateshead 10a 1062
And Her Death
Hannah Bell age 41 Sep 1900 Gateshead 9b 477
It seemed to fit as the link below is for Atkinson/Bell.
Please tell me if I'm off track as this is the first time i have done this.

http://edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/ak/INDEX.HTM

Baptisms at St. Mary Magdalene, Lanercost - 1685 - 1872

John BELL s Phillip/Margaret Midgeholme 31 Mar 1867


1891 Gateshead RG12 4177 11 p16
High Team
Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 32, Colliery Engineer, b. Knarsdale, Northumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 33, b. Lambley, Northumberland
Margaret Ann Richardson, dau, sin, 12, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Thomas Henry Richardson, son, sin, 8, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Isaac James Richardson, son, sin, 6, Scholar, b. Greenhead, Northumberland
John Bell, boarder, sin, 24, Joiner, Midgeholme, Cumberland



1901 Gateshead RG13 4751 14 p20
45 Queen Street
John Bell, head, widower, 34, House Joiner - Carp, b. Lanercost, Cumberland
Thomas Bell, son, sin, 8, b. Gateshead, Durham
Philip Bell, son, sin, 6, b. Gateshead, Durham
John Bell, son, sin, 3, b. Gateshead, Durham
Elizabeth Young, servant, wid, 59, Housekeeper (domestic), b. Blackpool, Lancs


CP
Quote
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 06:37 BST (UK)
There are some BELL listed in the 1881 Census: Residents of Union Workhouse, Brampton, Cumberland

Ann Bell Unmarried 25 Domestic Servant
James Bell Unmarried 75 Cotton Weaver
John Bell Unmarried 9 months Son of Domestic Servant
Mary Bell Married 75 Inmate Wife Schoolmaster
Thomas Bell Widower 65 Inmate Lab Ironworks
Thomas Bell Married 75 Inmate formerly Schoolmaster

All were born in Brampton, Cumberland, except for Mary Bell who was born in Netherby, Cumberland.

History of the Workhouse http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Brampton/Brampton.shtml


Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 06:44 BST (UK)
Thought I would post this, just in case ;)

In the 1881 census there is a Hannah Bell 28 and George Bell 23 (marital status for both not given) visiting the Gilsland School, School House, Upper Denton, Cumberland.  Both born in Alston, Cumberland.  Charlton Hall is the School Master, and wife Margaret.

RG11/5149, folio 198, page 2.
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 07:03 BST (UK)
This may or may not be  ??? useful at a later date!

Directories

The source of the entries appearing in the listings at the end of each entry are :-

(1829) - The Principal Inhabitants of Cumberland and Westmorland 1829 - Roland Grigg

(1847) - The Principal Inhabitants of Cumberland 1847 - Roland Grigg   

(1855) - Harriett Martineau's Directory of the Lake District 1855 - Edited by Roland Grigg

(1901) - Bulmer's Directory of Cumberland 1901 - An alphabetical index compiled by Roland Grigg

There is a whole page for the name BELL which you can see here http://janelittle.members.beeb.net/Bell.htm


I HAVE NEVER CONTRIBUTED TO ANY OF THE CHALLNGES BEFORE SO YOU WILL HAVE TO EXCUSE ME IF AM PROVIDING USELESS INFORMATION - I AM ENJOYING IT THOUGH :D

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Monday 01 August 05 07:46 BST (UK)
Hi,

Thought I'd have a go:

Found the following marriage for Anthony:

~~~~~~~~
Marriages Mar 1891
~~~~~~~~
Bell  Anthony     Brampton  10b 703 
  
Robson  Sarah     Brampton  10b 703   

Holly
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Monday 01 August 05 07:51 BST (UK)
Hi heres another first time go
   Anthony Bell died september 1903 still in Haltwhistle
                     age 44


             vol 10b    page 242.

                           Tazzie     
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: JAP on Monday 01 August 05 07:59 BST (UK)
1901 census
Farlam, Cumberland
BELL Anthony, 40, Head, Colliery Engine Man, b Northumberland Hartleyburn
Do Sarah, 36, Wife, b Cumberland Farlam
Do Philip E, 6, Son, b do
Do Samuel R, 3, Son, b do

JAP

Must have been Sarah ROBSON he married.

Here's Samuel's birth
Samuel Robson BELL, Dec qtr 1897, Brampton, Cumberland

And Philip was Philip Edwin
Philip Edwin BELL, Mar qtr 1895, Brampton, Cumberland
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 08:00 BST (UK)
Hey JAP, you beat me to it with the 1901 entry for Anthony ;D
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Monday 01 August 05 08:11 BST (UK)
Hi,

I believe Anthony married Sarah Robson. On the 1891 census he is listed with his parents and marked down as married. On the same census page 5 households down is:
Samuel Robson 48 M Head Coal Miner b- Haltwhistle
Isabella Robson 46 M Wife b- Farlam, Cumberland
Sarah Bell 26 M  Daughter b- Farlam, Cumberland
Thomas Robson 24 S Son b- Farlam, Cumberland
William Robson Son S 22 Unsetter in the Pit b- Midgholme
Isabella J Robson Daughter S 16 Dressmaker b- Midgholme
Hannah Mary Robson Daughter S 16 b- Midgholme
Samuel Robson Son 12 Scholar b- Midgholme
Joseph Robson Son 10 Scholar b- Midgholme
Margaret Elizabeth Daur 7 Scholar b- Midgholme
Elise Miriam Daur 2 Scholar b- Midgholme
Ann Hornesby Sister S 44 B- Farlam

What do you think?
Holly



Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Monday 01 August 05 08:17 BST (UK)
1881 Census - For ROBSON's living in Midgeholme

 Name  Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
 Samuel ROBSON   Head   M   Male   38   Haltwhistle, Northumberland, England   Colliery Banksman     
 Isabella ROBSON   Wife   M   Female   36   Farlam, Cumberland, England   Wife Of Banksman     
 Sarah ROBSON   Daur   U   Female   16   Farlam, Cumberland, England       
 Thomas ROBSON   Son      Male   14   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England   Coal Miner     
 William ROBSON   Son      Male   12   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England   Coal Miner     
 Annie ROBSON   Daur      Female   10   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England       
 Isabella A. ROBSON   Daur      Female   6   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England   Scholar     
 Hannah M. ROBSON   Daur      Female   6   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England   Scholar     
 Samuel ROBSON   Son      Male   2   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England       
 Joseph ROBSON   Son      Male   5 m   Midgeholme, Cumberland, England       

  Piece / Folio   5149 / 127
  Page Number   1

Holly
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Monday 01 August 05 08:26 BST (UK)
1871: Robson (Only 2 households from the Bell's)

Samuel Head 28 Colliery Bankman b- Haltwhistle
Isabella Wife 26 b- Brampton
Sarah Daur 6 b- Brampton
Thomas Son 4 b- Lanercoast
William Son 2 b- Lanercoast
Anne Daughter 1mo  b- Lanercoast

RG10/5210 Folio: 39 Page:5
Holly
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Monday 01 August 05 08:31 BST (UK)
Are we supposed to do his daughter in law's family? If not I'll stop

Holly
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 08:48 BST (UK)
I was wondering that Holly.

Are we supposed to stick to the BELL line or look at the in-law lines too ???
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 09:01 BST (UK)
There's been a busy 9 hours whilst I've been sleeping :) More than enough for me to have to start summarising.  I've got to quickly finish inputting in the computer programme all my mother's reasearch data on her mother's family (almost done 300 individuals over the weekend!) before she goes home this morning, and then I'll get my head round what's been uncovered here.

Re. daughter in laws family.  Details on the families that our heroes family married into all help build up a picture of him and his family and add to the story. Should we come across descendants, those details may well be directly relevant.  It helps if you title the posting 'P. B.'s son's wife' or something similar so that we can all easily see whereabouts on the thread you are.

(There was a picture book I used to sell in a previous life about P B Bear, so now I've got a completely bizarre image of Philip Bell :D )

Jo
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Monday 01 August 05 09:02 BST (UK)
Well folks, I'm off to do some housework (much rather be doing this!!!) so good luck with all the searching.

Hope someone is clever enough to find Philips Bell's parents ;)

No doubt when I get back on RC tonight this thread will be massive ;D ;D


Jan

Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Monday 01 August 05 10:00 BST (UK)
Wow, do you folks realise just how close Upper Denton & Haltwhistle are to Hadrians Wall?
Thats an interesting piece of history.
Hope the map link works  :)

map  (http://uk.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=360000&Y=560000&width=700&height=400&gride=357000&gridn=563000&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=grid&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&scale=200000&multimap.x=403&multimap.y=109")

Yaay it works - edited for width  :)
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: JAP on Monday 01 August 05 10:17 BST (UK)
Hi BD,

Now that is really fascinating!

Map link works perfectly.

JAP
PS: The only trouble is that the URL is so long that it's sent the page into a sideways scroll.  Trystan once told me how to avoid this.  Not sure if I can explain easily ;)
You put (without any spaces)
a square bracket
then
url=and enter whatever the long url is, then close the square bracket
then type Click Here
then put a square bracket, a forward slash, url, and close the square bracket.

It's much clearer ;D on the RootsChat Help Pages - Posting - Bulletin Board Code at:
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting.shtml
(though there's an instruction there which might mean I shouldn't have posted that url ....
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Monday 01 August 05 10:36 BST (UK)
Thanks for the info JAP.
As you can see I have successfuly edited the map link.   ;D

BD
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 14:09 BST (UK)
Summaries posted in same format as last months.  Page numbers in brackets refer to the page on this thread where the info is.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,77741.0.html
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: cep on Monday 01 August 05 18:08 BST (UK)
Possible daughter Jane in 1881

1881  RG11 5109 111 p22
Halton Lea Gate, Hartleyburn, Northumberland

Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 22, Coal Miner, b. Knarsdale, Cumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 23, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Margaret Richardson, dau, 2, b. Halton Lea Gate
Philip B Richardson, son, 2w, b. Halton Lea Gate


Possible Marriage 1877 Q1 Cockermouth 10b 725
2 couples on the page, including
BELL, Jane Bodkin
RICHARDSON, Thomas


Cockermouth is too far from home.
But children's names are interesting.
And BODKIN ??


CP
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 18:55 BST (UK)
Jane could have been in service in Cockermouth; I've got girls marrying in Middlesex when home was Trowbridge Wilts.  We've already had one helpful mother's surname passed down as a middle name to Anthony's son Samuel, Bodkin may be worth following as a lead.

1851 census index has Philip Bell age 40 at Haltwhistle piece 2416 folio 214.  Wrong age but right place considering dau Jane was born there c 1858.

Jo
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 19:27 BST (UK)
Philip Bell's birthplace found on http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/upperdenton.html

Denton (Upper) Parish

Is a small district, bounded on the east by Northumberland, on the south by Nether Denton, and on the west and north by the river Irthing. It is of a triangular form, intersected by the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway, and contains only 860 acres, rated at £1058 3s., and 127 inhabitants.

Upper Denton is a small village, six miles E. of Brampton; and here is situate the Church1, a very humble building. The benefice is a curacy, in the patronage of the earl of Carlisle, and incumbency of the Rev. Isaac Dodgson, M.A. It was certified to the ecclesiastical commissioners at £47 per ann., all of which arises from lands purchased with queen Anne's bounty, except 20s. a year paid by the earl of Carlisle, who is the largest landowner in this parish. The church was anciently granted to Lanercost priory, by Hugh Pudsey, bishop of Durham, to whose diocese it then belonged. At Mumpshall, a small hamlet in the parish, we have been pointed out the house in which lived Margaret Teasdale the Meg Merrilies of Sir Walter Scott's celebrated romance of "Guy Mannering;" and also her grave in the church yard of this parish. Near the Mains, on the south side of the river Irthing, is a spring, which petrifies the moss through which it passes, in its course to the river.

 

Mannix & Whellan, History, Gazetteer and Directory of Cumberland, 1847  

Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 20:48 BST (UK)

The Times, 11 January 1897  (page 4, column B)

     A REVENGEFUL TICKET-OF-LEAVE MAN.

At the County Magistrate's Office at Carlisle, on Saturday, Joseph BELL, a
mason or miner, aged 41, was brought up charged with having changed his
residence without notifying the fact to the police as he was bound as a
ticket-of-leave man to do; also with carrying firearms with intent to
murder. The prisoner was convicted at the Cumberland Assizes in October,
1882, of attempting to murder his brother John BELL, grocer, Dalston, near
Carlisle, and his brother's wife, by the use of dynamite or tonite. The
prisoner had gone to Dalston in the summer of 1882, and at night had thrown
an explosive missile into a room which he believed to be occupied by John
BELL and his wife. He had, however, mistaken the house. The occupant of the
room into which the missile fell was a Miss BROWN, who, on being awakened by
the hissing of the fuse, called out that the house was on fire. Her nephew
on hearing the cry of alarm ran into her bed room. He saw the missile on the
floor - it was an india-rubber tube a yard and a half long, with a hard ball
at the end - and, picking it up, he threw it out of the room into a lobby.
There it exploded and did great damage to the building. Mr Justice DAY
characterized the prisoner's crime as a diabolical and carefully-planned
attempt to gratify his feelings of revenge against his sister-in-law Martha
BELL for some fancied wrong, and sentenced him to 20 years' penal servitude.
Last September, when he had served between 14 and 15 years of his sentence,
he was liberated on licence by Sir Matthew White RIDLEY, Home Secretary, in
compliance with a local memorial which had been presented to him. On
December 26 the released convict went to Dalston and visited his brother,
who offered him supper, which he declined. The prisoner seemed friendly, but
refused to say why he was in the neighbourhood. The brother accompanied him
part of the way towards Carlisle, and before they parted the prisoner showed
him a revolver and remarked, "I would be the end of your missus if it was
not for you." On January 2 Police-constable FISHER apprehended the prisoner
for failing to report himself. He had a revolver in his pocket and 25 ball
cartridges for it. To the officer he remarked, when at the police-station,
"I'll do for the old woman Martha, at Dalston." The magistrates said they
must forfeit the prisoner's licence, and BELL was sent to complete the
unexpired portion of his sentence of 20 years' penal servitude.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 20:49 BST (UK)
Clicked send before I commented!!!  Just to say I hope we don't link up with this Bell, though sounds a likely colourful family :)
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 21:59 BST (UK)
Possible daughter Jane in 1881

1881  RG11 5109 111 p22
Halton Lea Gate, Hartleyburn, Northumberland

Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 22, Coal Miner, b. Knarsdale, Cumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 23, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Margaret Richardson, dau, 2, b. Halton Lea Gate
Philip B Richardson, son, 2w, b. Halton Lea Gate

Possible Marriage 1877 Q1 Cockermouth 10b 725
2 couples on the page, including
BELL, Jane Bodkin
RICHARDSON, Thomas

CP


Death registration for Philip Bell Richardson Sept 1881 age 0 Haltwhistle
Does look like Philip Bell's dau Jane married Thomas Richardson, right age, right birthplace and son is named after her father.
Jo
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 22:25 BST (UK)
1891 Gateshead   RG12 4177 11 p16
High Team
Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 32, Colliery Engineer, b. Knarsdale, Northumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 33, b. Lambley, Northumberland
Margaret Ann Richardson, dau, sin, 12, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Thomas Henry Richardson, son, sin, 8, Scholar, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Isaac James Richardson, son, sin, 6, Scholar, b. Greenhead, Northumberland
John Bell, boarder, sin, 24, Joiner, Midgeholme, Cumberland

CP

Jane is John's sister (she's had a different place of birth in each census but sure it is her each time)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 22:39 BST (UK)
Here's Jane (Philip Bell's daughter) in 1901 (different birthplace again to be consistant!):
at Winlaton Blaydon Durham 18 Pioneer Street:
Thomas Richardson 43 coal hewer
Jane wife 44
Margaret A dau 23 Drapers assistant
Thomas H son 19 coal hewer
Isaac J son 17 coal putter (below ground) all born Northumberland
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: cep on Monday 01 August 05 23:37 BST (UK)
Possible daughter Jane in 1881

1881  RG11 5109 111 p22
Halton Lea Gate, Hartleyburn, Northumberland

Thomas Richardson, head, mar, 22, Coal Miner, b. Knarsdale, Cumberland
Jane Richardson, wife, mar, 23, b. Midgeholme, Cumberland
Margaret Richardson, dau, 2, b. Halton Lea Gate
Philip B Richardson, son, 2w, b. Halton Lea Gate


Possible Marriage 1877 Q1 Cockermouth 10b 725
2 couples on the page, including
BELL, Jane Bodkin
RICHARDSON, Thomas


Cockermouth is too far from home.
But children's names are interesting.
And BODKIN ??


CP


Much more likely Marriage for Jane, daughter of Philip Bell.

1878 Q2 Brampton 10b 639

Bell, Jane
Richardson, Thomas


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tommytoronto on Monday 01 August 05 23:40 BST (UK)
on the IGI - there is a Jane Bell christened at Presbyterian NC Haltwhistle Northumberland.

The birthdate is listed as June 15 1857, christened on JUly 16 1857, parenst listed as Philip Bell and Mary.

Thought this was worth a look.  

Tom
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 23:44 BST (UK)
I agree CP much more likely marriage for Jane and Thomas, shame, was hoping the Bodkin would give us a lead on the previous generation.
Just need to find daughter Margaret born c 1862 in 1881 to have all 4 children.

Tom, can we find another Philip Bell with wife Mary in the censuses that would account for this Jane?
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 01 August 05 23:47 BST (UK)
Durham Mining Museum website has an 'In Memorium' section:

Bell, Anthony, 25 Aug 1903, aged 44, Engineman at  Featherstone Colliery

Description
 Deceased and another workman went into a return airway, also used as a pipe road for conveying steam to a pump, which exhausts direct into the return, to attend to leaking joints. In order to locate the leaking joints a small pressure of steam was left on and in any case the road was very warm. After going so far the man with deceased found it too hot and returned to the pump leaving deceased. who said he could stand the heat. Deceased's mate had all steam cut off and then returned to the drift, and not finding deceased where he had left him concluded he had gone on to a door at top. Some time after he found deceased further up dead, evidently overcome by the heat. In subsequent search deceased's lamp was found 37 yards above his body. He had probably become confused, lost his light, and then turned back. Deceased had received a somewhat severe electric shock some few months before.

Source: Mines Inspectors Annual Report for 1903 (Cd 2119), from a copy held in the Scottish Mining Museum, Newtongrange, Midlothian.

Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: alcrighton on Tuesday 02 August 05 00:16 BST (UK)
I think I may have tracked down Margaret, Philip's daughter:

1881 Census

A search for Margarets born in Midgeholme threw up:

RG11/5109  Folio 107 Page 13

Halton Lea Gate, Haltwhistle

John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate
Margaret Bell, Wife, b Northumberland, Midgeholme, Lamergost?

and then I found

Marriages June Quarter 1880

John Bell, Bramton 10b 625
Margaret Bell, Brampton 10b 625

Coincidence or something else with Ince** in the word  :o

Al
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tommytoronto on Tuesday 02 August 05 00:29 BST (UK)

Tom, can we find another Philip Bell with wife Mary in the censuses that would account for this Jane?

Well- in a cursory search - i don't see any Jane bell on 1861 that matches as a daughter of Philip.

(In fact - there are only 19 Philip Bell's on the 1861 census - ours is transcribed as Beed)

Tom
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 13:40 BST (UK)
I am still having difficulty with the county boundaries.

Nice map here:
http://www.durham.gov.uk/durhamcc/K2P.nsf/K2PDetail?readform&PRN=N5959

Click on  "Location of this site on a map"

Haltwhistle
Midgeholme
Knarsdale
Halton Lea Gate
Farlam
Brampton
Lanercost
etc.

All clearly shown.

Upper Denton is just SW of Gilsland.

Featherstone Colliery, where Anthony Bell died, is the "X" at centre of map.


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 14:30 BST (UK)
Thanks CP, need to zoom out a bit to 100000 to see almost all the places together.  We're right on the border of Cumberland and Northumberland. Carlisle isn't far away west and neither is Newcastle and Gateshead far away to the east (hence Hadrians wall).
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 14:36 BST (UK)
There is no IGI index reference for Upper Denton, Cumberland, so this entry may be of relevance:

Philip BELL
Christening 15 June 1817
Haltwhistle, Northumberland
Father: Thomas BELL
Mother: Mary
Batch No: P002851

But with a name like Bell, and 26 christenings of children born to Thomas and Mary Bell within 20 years, this may be a red herring.

I think this one might be tougher than last month's...

There's also a Philip Bell chr 28 Oct 1818 at Brampton, parents John and Jane, on the IGI.  John and Jane and other children, John, Richard and Margaret are in Brampton 1861, cotton weavers.

Upper Denton is halfway between Brampton and Haltwhistle, so our Philip could be either or another one chr in Upper Denton.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 14:41 BST (UK)
We're right on the border of Cumberland and Northumberland.

Border runs between Midgeholme (Cumberland) and Halton Lea Gate (Northumberland)
Then right through Gilsland.

No wonder these people don't know where they were born!


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 14:53 BST (UK)
From the London Ancester website
Report of the Boundary Commissioners for England and Wales.
Printed by Eyre and Spottiswoode, London, 1885.

http://www.londonancestor.com/maps/bc-cumber-n.htm


Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 15:03 BST (UK)
Thank You for the map.

Much better than the one I drew by hand!


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge - PB's Daur-In-Law
Post by: Holly Golightly on Tuesday 02 August 05 15:47 BST (UK)
Hi,

Have been looking at ROBSON's - Philips son Anthony's wife Family:

To finish of the censuses here they are in 1901:
1901: RG13/4859 Folio: 73, Page: 16
Tudal Terrace, Farlam
Samuel Robson Head M 58 Coal Tipler?  b- Hartleyburn
Isabella Wife M 56 b- Farlam
Samuel Son S 22 Coal Miner b- Midgeholm
Joseph Son S 20 Coal Miner (putter) b- Midgeholm
Margaret Daughter S 17 b- Midgeholm
Elsie M Daughter S 12 b- Midgeholm
Ann Housby Sister in Law S 54 b- Farlam

Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 15:50 BST (UK)
I think I may have tracked down Margaret, Philip's daughter:

1881 Census

A search for Margarets born in Midgeholme threw up:

RG11/5109  Folio 107 Page 13

Halton Lea Gate, Haltwhistle

John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate
Margaret Bell, Wife, b Northumberland, Midgeholme, Lamergost?

and then I found

Marriages June Quarter 1880

John Bell, Bramton 10b 625
Margaret Bell, Brampton 10b 625

Coincidence or something else with Ince** in the word  :o

Al

There is a Margaret Heslop on the same page of marriages.

However, I conclude that you are probably right.

It appears Somerset is not the only county where villages have a limited number of surnames!


1881:
John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate


1871, no such place as Halton Lea Gate.
Found it under Hartleyburn, where I find:

RG10 5155 20 p13
Haltonlea Gate
Joseph Bell, head, mar, 54, Coal Miner, b. Alston, Cumberland
Elizabeth Bell, wife, mar, 68, b. Aspatria, Cumberland
Isabella Batey, step dau, unm, 46, b. "Do  Alty, Somerset"  ??
Joseph Batey, gran son, unm, 24, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle Nb
John Batey, step g son, unm, 16, Coal Miner, b. Hexham Nb
James Batey, step g son, unm, 12, Coal Miner, b. Newcastle Nb

2 doors down:

John Bell, head, widower, 53, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Mary Ann Bell, dau, unm, 18, General Servant, b. Haltwhistle
John Bell, son, unm, 13, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle

Next page:

John Heslop, head, mar, 50, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Ann Heslop, wife, mar, 51, b. Haltwhistle
Joseph Heslop, son, unm, 24, Coal Miner, b. Greenhead, Cumb
Sarah Heslop, dau, unm, 23, Servant, b. Haltwhistle
John Heslop, son, unm, 20, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Isabella Heslop, dau, unm, 18, b. Haltwhistle
Mathew Heslop, son, unm, 16, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Margaret Heslop, dau, 4, b. Haltwhistle


I WAS going to nominate John Bell, 13, as husband of our Margaret.
But finding him living next door to another possible Margaret, raises doubts.

Anyone else want to puzzle this?


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge - ROBSON - PB's Daur-In-Law
Post by: Holly Golightly on Tuesday 02 August 05 15:53 BST (UK)
The births/Christnings of the children I could find :

Thomas: Born - March Qtr 1867 Brampton 10b 392 (FreeBMD)
   Christened - 5th March 1867, Lanercoast Cumberland (IGI)

William: Christened - 13 January 1869, Lanercoast Cumberland (IGI)

Annie: Born - 26 April 1870 (IGI) / June Qtr 1870 Brampton 10b 422 (FreeBMD)
   Christened - 26 Jun 1870, Hastlewith Cumberland (also listed as christened in Lanercoast) (IGI)

Isabella Jane: Born - 11 December 1874 (IGI) /  March Qtr 1875 Brampton 10b 465 (FreeBMD)
   Christened - 20 December 1874, Lanercoast Cumberland (IGI)

Hannah Mary:  Born - 11 December 1874 (IGI) /  March Qtr 1875 Brampton 10b 465 (FreeBMD)
   Christened - 20 December 1874, Lanercoast Cumberland (IGI)

Samuel: Born - June Qtr 1878 Brampton 10b 467 (FreeBMD)

Joseph: Born - December Qtr 1880 Brampton 10b 423 (FreeBMD)

Margaret Elizabeth: Born - June Qtr 1883 Brampton 10b 453 (FreeBMD)

Elsie Miriam: Born - March Qtr 1889 Brampton 10b 453 (FreeBMD)

Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Tuesday 02 August 05 16:22 BST (UK)
I think I may have tracked down Margaret, Philip's daughter:

1881 Census

A search for Margarets born in Midgeholme threw up:

RG11/5109  Folio 107 Page 13

Halton Lea Gate, Haltwhistle

John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate
Margaret Bell, Wife, b Northumberland, Midgeholme, Lamergost?

and then I found

Marriages June Quarter 1880

John Bell, Bramton 10b 625
Margaret Bell, Brampton 10b 625

Coincidence or something else with Ince** in the word  :o

Al

There is a Margaret Heslop on the same page of marriages.

However, I conclude that you are probably right.

It appears Somerset is not the only county where villages have a limited number of surnames!


1881:
John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate


1871, no such place as Halton Lea Gate.
Found it under Hartleyburn, where I find:

RG10 5155 20 p13
Haltonlea Gate
Joseph Bell, head, mar, 54, Coal Miner, b. Alston, Cumberland
Elizabeth Bell, wife, mar, 68, b. Aspatria, Cumberland
Isabella Batey, step dau, unm, 46, b. "Do  Alty, Somerset"  ??
Joseph Batey, gran son, unm, 24, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle Nb
John Batey, step g son, unm, 16, Coal Miner, b. Hexham Nb
James Batey, step g son, unm, 12, Coal Miner, b. Newcastle Nb

2 doors down:

John Bell, head, widower, 53, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Mary Ann Bell, dau, unm, 18, General Servant, b. Haltwhistle
John Bell, son, unm, 13, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle

Next page:

John Heslop, head, mar, 50, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Ann Heslop, wife, mar, 51, b. Haltwhistle
Joseph Heslop, son, unm, 24, Coal Miner, b. Greenhead, Cumb
Sarah Heslop, dau, unm, 23, Servant, b. Haltwhistle
John Heslop, son, unm, 20, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Isabella Heslop, dau, unm, 18, b. Haltwhistle
Mathew Heslop, son, unm, 16, Coal Miner, b. Haltwhistle
Margaret Heslop, dau, 4, b. Haltwhistle


I WAS going to nominate John Bell, 13, as husband of our Margaret.
But finding him living next door to another possible Margaret, raises doubts.

Anyone else want to puzzle this?


CP

I dont know if thats the right Margaret Heslop who married 1880. That Margaret would have only been 14 when she married, and looking on the 1881 census I came up with:

 Name  Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
 John HESLOP   Head   M   Male   60   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England   Coal Miner     
 Ann HESLOP   Wife   M   Female   62   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England       
 Margret HESLOP   Grand Daur   U   Female   14   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England   Miners G Daug     


~~~~~~~~
Source Information:
  Dwelling   Engine House
  Census Place Hartleyburn, Northumberland, England
  Family History Library Film   1342234
  Public Records Office Reference   RG11
  Piece / Folio   5109 / 106
  Page Number   12

Holly

NOTE - There is a BATEY family just above them. (Different from 1871 though)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 16:29 BST (UK)

I dont know if thats the right Margaret Heslop who married 1880. That Margaret would have only been 14 when she married, and looking on the 1881 census I came up with:

 Name  Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
 John HESLOP   Head   M   Male   60   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England   Coal Miner     
 Ann HESLOP   Wife   M   Female   62   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England       
 Margret HESLOP   Grand Daur   U   Female   14   Engine House Haltlur, Northumberland, England   Miners G Daug     


~~~~~~~~
Source Information:
  Dwelling   Engine House
  Census Place Hartleyburn, Northumberland, England
  Family History Library Film   1342234
  Public Records Office Reference   RG11
  Piece / Folio   5109 / 106
  Page Number   12

Holly

NOTE - There is a BATEY family just above them. (Different from 1871 though)

Good!  That's the kind of checking I need.

Too many Bells in my head at the moment!

Thanks.   CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 16:39 BST (UK)
Anyone interested in background, life in mining villages, etc.

How Green Was My Valley,  book or film.

Set in South Wales, c. 1900, but Northumberland would not be very different.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033729/


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 17:41 BST (UK)
Search FreeBMD for Marriages Brampton 1880 10b / 625, gives:

Marriages Jun 1880
Batey    John              Brampton        10b    625     
BELL     John               Brampton        10b    625     
HESLOP   Margaret        Brampton        10b    625 


Search FreeBMD for Marriages Brampton 1880 Margaret Bell, gives:

Marriages Jun 1880
BELL     Margaret Ann    Brampton        10b    525     

Marriages Dec 1880
BELL     Margaret        Brampton        10b    638   


So I got the image from 1837Online.

Margaret Ann Bell is clearly  10b 625

For those who are having difficulty with Margaret Bell
The page should read:

Marriages Jun 1880
Batey    John                Brampton        10b    625     
BELL     John                Brampton        10b    625     
BELL     Margaret Ann    Brampton        10b    625     
HESLOP   Margaret        Brampton        10b    625 


Just when I thought I had this resolved, I notice the Margaret Bell, married Dec quarter, 1880,  and that June quarter is Margaret ANN  ........

And now we have a John Batey in the mix.

There is also a Margaret Bell m. Haltwhistle 1880 Q2  10b 421


My head hurts.        CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 02 August 05 19:05 BST (UK)
I think I may have tracked down Margaret, Philip's daughter:

1881 Census

A search for Margarets born in Midgeholme threw up:

RG11/5109  Folio 107 Page 13

Halton Lea Gate, Haltwhistle

John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate
Margaret Bell, Wife, b Northumberland, Midgeholme, Lamergost?

and then I found

Marriages June Quarter 1880

John Bell, Bramton 10b 625
Margaret Bell, Brampton 10b 625

Coincidence or something else with Ince** in the word  :o

Al

Trying to eliminate all the other Margaret Bell by age.

I am left with one other possibility

Marriages Dec 1879
Armstrong William        Haltwhistle     10b    423     
Bell     Margaret          Haltwhistle     10b    423     

1881 RG11 5110 30 p1
Thirlwall, Cottage
William Armstrong, head, mar, 33, Stone Mason, b. Haltwhistle
Margaret Armstrong, wife, mar, 19, b. Haltwhistle


But I think Al has the right one.


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 19:52 BST (UK)
I think I may have tracked down Margaret, Philip's daughter:

1881 Census

A search for Margarets born in Midgeholme threw up:

RG11/5109  Folio 107 Page 13

Halton Lea Gate, Haltwhistle

John Bell, Head, 24, Coal Miner, b. Northumberland, Halton Lea Gate
Margaret Bell, Wife, b Northumberland, Midgeholme, Lamergost?

and then I found

Marriages June Quarter 1880

John Bell, Bramton 10b 625
Margaret Bell, Brampton 10b 625

Coincidence or something else with Ince** in the word  :o

Al

Can we find this pair in a later census to see if any children or visitors can confirm that she is Philip's daughter?  I've had a quick look to no avail.

Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 20:57 BST (UK)
Took the photos away - wrong Featherstone colliery.  there's one  near Wakefield which is not the one where Anthony died.
Photos on next posting still give us an idea of the life though.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 21:00 BST (UK)
http://www.pitwork.net/jstocks/File10007a.jpg

http://www.pitwork.net/jstocks/File0004%20aa.jpg

Not an easy occupation and a world away from our family last month.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: alcrighton on Tuesday 02 August 05 21:29 BST (UK)
Quote

I had a look at the 1881 census to try and find John & Margaret
Search FreeBMD for Marriages Brampton 1880 10b / 625, gives:

Marriages Jun 1880
Batey John Brampton 10b 625
BELL John Brampton 10b 625
HESLOP Margaret Brampton 10b 625


Search FreeBMD for Marriages Brampton 1880 Margaret Bell, gives:

Marriages Jun 1880
BELL Margaret Ann Brampton 10b 525

Marriages Dec 1880
BELL Margaret Brampton 10b 638


So I got the image from 1837Online.

Margaret Ann Bell is clearly 10b 625

For those who are having difficulty with Margaret Bell
The page should read:

Marriages Jun 1880
Batey John Brampton 10b 625
BELL John Brampton 10b 625
BELL Margaret Ann Brampton 10b 625
HESLOP Margaret Brampton 10b 625


Just when I thought I had this resolved, I notice the Margaret Bell, married Dec quarter, 1880, and that June quarter is Margaret ANN ........

And now we have a John Batey in the mix.

There is also a Margaret Bell m. Haltwhistle 1880 Q2 10b 421


My head hurts. CP

Had a go at tackling the problem from the other end by trying to track down John & Margaret Batey is the 1881 census and there was nobody of the right age.  I did however come up with (RG11/5097 F84 P10):

John Batey, Head, 59, Ag Lab, b. Northumberland
Margaret Batey, Wife, 51, b. Acklington
Ann Batey, Dau, 11
James E Batey, Son, 8

In the 1871 census I came up with John Baty (49, Ag Lab) married to Mary and with (among others) a 1 year old daughter named Ann (Ref: RG10/5137 F126 p3).

Theory:  John Batey was widowed sometime after 1871 and then married Margaret Heslop in 1880.  Mary Ann Bell, Philip's daughter therefore married John Bell.

What do you think?

Al
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 23:17 BST (UK)
Found Margaret Ann and John Bell in 1891 (index had Beld instead of Bell):
at Farlam , Speltin Works?, ?burn Gate
John Bell 32 coal miner
Margaret Ann Bell wife 28
William 6
Tom 5
John Joseph 4
Robert James 2
Arthur 7 weeks
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 02 August 05 23:29 BST (UK)
And in 1901:
At Farlam Coalfell
John Bell 42 coal miner (deputy foreman)  all born Farlam
Margaret A wife 38
William 16
Tom 15
John j 13 Hauking shaft foot
Herbert J 11 working on ??? (coal mine written above)
Arthur 10
George G 7
Margaret m 5
Christopher 3
ada 1
Catherine Armstrong serv 21 general serv domestic

If this is Margaret , Philip's daughter odd that with all those children one isn't named after him.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 08:46 BST (UK)
Updated summaries, but haven't included our deliberations on Philip's daughter Margaret yet.
As well as trying to be sure of her marriage, can we find anything about Jane's in laws the Richardsons or John's in laws the Atkinsons.
Think we're going to need to find someone with easy access to Carlisle to check on the Upper Denton church records to conclude who our Philip's parents were.

Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Wednesday 03 August 05 13:51 BST (UK)
Historical background - Coal mines near Haltwhistle.

It would appear the mines or 'pits' in our area were all "drift mines", where the miners drove an inclined tunnel into the side of a hill and followed the gently-dipping seams of coal.

Not the deep mines with the sheave wheels set atop tall headgear, which is what comes to mind when coal is mentioned.

" In the Alston area at the border of Northumberland and Cumbria the Little Limestone Seam is very thin. At Ayle Colliery the miner is lying at the 40 cm high coal face in order to work the coal by a pneumatic pic."

http://www.mining-europe.de/smallmines/5/smallmines5.htm

Alston is just south of our area, and the pictures would be very typical.

More pictures and description of Ayle Colliery here:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/a/ayle_colliery/index.shtml
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/a/ayle_colliery/index2.shtml


I have worked underground (not coal), and am stunned to find they were still mining like this in year 2000.


Tows Bank is very close to the Featherstone colliery. Pictures of the surface operations and surrounding countryside here:

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/t/tows_bank_colliery/index.shtml
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/t/tows_bank_colliery/index1.shtml


Description of Mining Occupations here:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/educate/mineocc.htm

See in particular  "Hewers"   and   "Trappers"

"1849: 
A little boy whose employment consists in opening and shutting a trap-door when required : his wages are 9d. or 10d. per day of 12 hours(1849). At present 1s. to 1s. 2d. per day of 8 hours. (1888). "



CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 03 August 05 14:22 BST (UK)

Haltwhistle (and others of "our" villages) brings up lots of fascinating hits on Google.

JAP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 14:51 BST (UK)
wonderful background info CP.  I'm used to the deep pits of south wales where my maternal grandmothers family were from 1870s.  Mum's aunts remember the washing being as dirty when they brought it in from drying as it was when it went out.

Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:07 BST (UK)
Hi All,

I noticed we didnt have Philip's wife after his death, so went looking for her on the 1901 census. Found her:
RG13/4827 Folio 72 Page 9
Park, Bellister, Haltwhistle
Margaret Head Widow 74 b-Brampton, Cumberland

Whats better, Is I think I have stumbled across Margaret (the daughter). In the household above Margaret (74) we find:

John Bell 43 Head Married Miner Coal b-Haltwhistle
Margaret A Bell 39 Wife Married b- Cumberland
Barbara A Bell 18 Daughter Single Dressmaker b-Northumberland
Philip H F Bell 9 Son b-Northumberland
L Jane Bell 8 Daughter b-Northumberland
Lucy Bell 5 Daughter b-Northumberland
Alice Mary Bell 2 Daughter b-Northumberland
John William Bell 7m Son b-Northumberland

I then looked on the 1891 and found them at Halton Lea Gate, Hartleyburn
(RG12/4250 Folio:50 Page:9)

John Bell 34/54 (First number could be a 3 or 5) Head Married Coal Miner b-Hartleyburn
Margaret A 29 Wife Married b-Midgeholm
Barbara A 8 Daughter b-Hartleyburn
Margaret 4 Daughter b-Hartleyburn

I think this seems to be "our" Margaret, ages fit and she has named children after her father Philip.

What do you all think?
Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:13 BST (UK)
Births Found So Far:
Barbara Annie March Qtr 1883 Haltwhistle  10b 329
Philip Henry F Sept Qtr 1891  Haltwhistle  10b 361
Alice Mary Sept Qtr 1898 Haltwhistle  10b 405
John William Sept Qtr 1900    Haltwhistle  10b 410
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:30 BST (UK)
I found someone on Genesconnected who has Barbara Annie listed, I have sent them a message to tell them about the Challenge. Hopefully they will respond soon.

Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:35 BST (UK)
well found Holly, certainly looks like our Margaret especially being close to her Mum and with the name Philip following through (all Philip's other children called a son after their father).

What do people think of this
6 Feb 1918  Thomas Henry Richardson = Emily Hind Turnbull St Peters Jarrow (genuki)
as Jane's sons marriage. In 1901 they were at Blaydon just west of Newcastle.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:44 BST (UK)
And Jane's other son:
Isaac James Richardson marriage 1907 June qtr Gateshead.  Possibly Mary Isabella Banks but theres also Stephen Charles Riches listed and no other female on Ancestry.co.uk
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 15:48 BST (UK)
the other female is Ellen Maude that could have married Isaac courtesy of FreeBMD
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 16:39 BST (UK)
Margaret's husband John Bell's family, I guess from his age , birthplace and his mother's name.

1861 at Hartleyburn, Halton Lee Gate:
John Bell 43 coal miner
Barbara wife 44
Jane dau 14 dressmaker
William son 12 coal miner
Mary Ann dau 9
Margaret dau 7
John son 4 all born Haltwhistle
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 03 August 05 16:50 BST (UK)
This John Bell married Barbara Teasdale 2 Jan 1848 at Haltwhistle (LDS entry on IGI)

or

John Bell married Jane Pickering/Barbara Waugh/3rd female missing on Ancestry.co.uk Dec qtr 1846 Haltswhistle
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Wednesday 03 August 05 17:04 BST (UK)
Looks like thats John's family. As I noticed on IGI that some of his sisters were christened in Knarsdale, where John states he was born in 1881.

Jane Bell - 8 Aug 1845
Jane Bell - 21 Aug 1846
Margaret Bell - 19 Mar 1848


Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Wednesday 03 August 05 17:26 BST (UK)
This John Bell married Barbara Teasdale 2 Jan 1848 at Haltwhistle (LDS entry on IGI)

or

John Bell married Jane Pickering/Barbara Waugh/3rd female missing on Ancestry.co.uk Dec qtr 1846 Haltswhistle

From FreeBMD

Marriages Mar 1848

Lee      Thomas          Haltwhistle     25     225     
Leighton Matthew         Haltwhistle     25     225     
Little   Jane            Haltwhistle     25     225     
Taylor   Catharine       Haltwhistle     25     225     
Teasdale Barbara         Haltwhistle     25     225     


From 1837online marriages 1848 March q

Bell  John     Haltwhistle  xxv  225


From FreeBMD

Marriages Dec 1846

Bell      John            Haltwhistle     25     335     
Brown     Isabella        Haltwhistle     25     335     
Makepeace John            Haltwhistle     25     335     
Pickering Jane            Haltwhistle     25     335     
Smith     Edward          Haltwhistle     25     335     
Snowdon   Thomas          Haltwhistle     25     335     
Waugh     Barbara         Haltwhistle     25     335     

Marriages Dec 1846

Coats      Ann             Haltwhistle     25     336     
Dowley     Mary Ann        Haltwhistle     25     336     
Hutchinson Thomas          Haltwhistle     25     336     
Johnson    James           Haltwhistle     25     336     
Wallis     William         Haltwhistle     25     336     
Waugh      Edward          Haltwhistle     25     336     
Waugh      Mary Ann        Haltwhistle     25     336   


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Wednesday 03 August 05 17:50 BST (UK)
The IGI shows John Bell marrying ISABELLA BROWN 19th November 1846 and Barbara Waugh Marrying THOMAS SNOWDON 24th October 1846

Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Thursday 04 August 05 10:56 BST (UK)
Looks like thats John's family. As I noticed on IGI that some of his sisters were christened in Knarsdale, where John states he was born in 1881.

Jane Bell - 8 Aug 1845
Jane Bell - 21 Aug 1846
Margaret Bell - 19 Mar 1848


Holly


If these are John's (Philip's daughter Margaret's husband so no Bell confusion) that would give a marriage date for (father) John and Barbara before 1845.

Barbara must have died between 1861 and 71:

1871 Hartleyburn, Halton Lea Gate
John Bell widower 53 coal miner
Mary Ann dau 18 general servant
John son 13 coal miner all born Haltwhistle
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Thursday 04 August 05 11:46 BST (UK)
Hi guys
  Is this a possible for P BS grand daughter Margaret Annie
        by Jane and Thomas Richardson

      Marriages March quarter1908  Brampton
    Margaret Annie Richardson      10b 723
    Mary Jane Bell                          10b 723
    Thomas Douglas                      10b 723
    Tom Fallowfield Mounsey         10b 723
   (now theres a name to have)

       After this lots of births but no give aways in the names

                   Tazzie
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Thursday 04 August 05 18:02 BST (UK)
I started out looking for John Bell, husband of Margaret.
John b. 1818 Haltwhistle

Project got a little out of hand.
I extracted from IGI all John Bell, b. Haltwhistle 1813-1823

Index   Year    Date    Name       s/d  Father  Mother          Surname
1       1813    26-Jun  John       s    Robert  Mary Brown      Bell
2       1813    15-Aug  John       s    Thomas  Mary Glenwright Bell
3       1814            John       s            Isabella       
4       c 1815          John       s    Thomas         
5       1816    13-Apr  John       s    Joseph         
6       1816    21-May  John       s    Anthony Catherine       Bell
7       1817    13-Apr  John       s    Joseph  Mary Charlton   Bell
8       1817    15-Jun  John       s    William Rachel Hawkin   Bell
9       1819    3-Apr   John       s    James   Lucy Hutchinson Bell
10      c 1820          John       s    Henry           
11      1820    11-Jun  John       s    Thomas  Mary Charlton   
12      1820    20-Aug  John       s    John    Ann     

Then I tried to find the other children of the identified parents:

Index   Year    Date    Name       s/d  Father  Mother          Surname
1       1813    26-Jun  John       s    Robert  Mary Brown      Bell
        1814    6-Nov   William    s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1816    12-Apr  George     s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1818    16-Nov  Ann        d    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1821    17-Mar  Marten     s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1821    15-Nov  Robert     s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1822    17-Mar  Margaret   d    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1823    19-Feb  Mary Anne  s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1825    13-Feb  Margaret   d    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1827    15-May  Robert     s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1827    20-May  Jane       d    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1830    21-Feb  Isaac      s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1831    13-Mar  John       s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1831    23-Mar  George     s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1833    10-Feb  Hannah     d    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1835    8-Feb   William    s    Robert  Mary            Bell
        1840    26-Jul  James      s    Robert  Mary            Bell

2       1804    26-Oct  Elizabeth  d    Thomas  Mary Glenwright Bell
        1809    27-Jan  Margaret   d    Thomas  Mary Twedale    Bell
        1809    19-Apr  Ann        d    Thomas  Mary Glenwright Bell
        1811    3-Feb   James      s    Thomas  Mary Tweddle    Bell
        1811    12-Mar  Isabella   d    Thomas  Mary Glenwright Bell
        1813    15-Aug  John       s    Thomas  Mary Glenwright Bell
        1813    29-Aug  Thomas     s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1814    11-Dec  Thomas     s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1816    7-Apr   Matthew    s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1816    6-Oct   Matthew    s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1817    15-Jun  Philip     s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1818    19-Apr  Matthew    s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1819    27-Jun  Luny       ?    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1820    11-Jun  John       s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1822    10-Feb  Elizabeth  d    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1822    1-Dec   Hannah     d    Thomas  Mary            Bell
        1823    15-Jun  William    s    Thomas  Mary            Bell
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Thursday 04 August 05 18:03 BST (UK)
Index   Year    Date    Name       s/d  Father  Mother          Surname
6       1813    5-May   Margaret   d    Anthony Catherine       Bell
        1816    21-May  John       s    Anthony Catherine       Bell
        1821    15-Sep  William    s    Anthony Catherine       Bell

7       1805    26-Mar  Thomas     s    Joseph  Mary Charlton   Bell
        1807    14-Jul  Ann        d    Joseph  Mary Charlton   Bell
        1809    29-Sep  William    s    Joseph  Mary Charlton   Bell
        1814    29-May  Matthew    s    Joseph  Mary            Bell
        1814    29-May  Joseph     s    Joseph  Mary            Bell
        1817    13-Apr  John       s    Joseph  Mary Charlton   Bell
        1819    19-Sep  Charlton   s    Joseph  Mary            Bell

8       1813    7-Nov   Henry      s    William Rachel          Bell
        1815    23-Jul  William    s    William Rachel          Bell
        1817    15-Jun  John       s    William Rachel Hawkin   Bell
        1819    9-May   Joseph     s    William Rachel          Bell
        1821    4-Mar   Thomas     s    William Rachel          Bell

9       1812    3-Aug   Mary       d    James   Lucy            Bell
        1815    1-Dec   Margaret   d    James   Lucy            Bell
        1819    3-Apr   John       s    James   Lucy Hutchinson Bell
        1823    7-Dec   James      s    James   Lucy            Bell

11      1820    11-Jun  John       s    Thomas  Mary Charlton   

12      1815    2-Nov   Joseph     s    John    Ann             Bell
        1817    26-Oct  Mary       d    John    Ann             Bell
        1820    20-Aug  John       s    John    Ann             Bell
        1822    15-Sep  Anne       d    John    Ann             Bell
        1825    8-May   Jane       d    John    Ann             Bell
        1827    27-May  William    s    John    Ann             Bell
        1831    12-Jun  George     s    John    Ann             Bell
        1834    5-Oct   Tamar      d    John    Ann             Bell

There are too many Bells with same names and overlapping dates.
Someone may find this useful.    CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Thursday 04 August 05 19:20 BST (UK)
no wonder we've got problems ;D and those are just the ones in Haltwhistle
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Thursday 04 August 05 22:54 BST (UK)
Hi all (well if you are still awake)

           Have been looking for PBs wife Margaret

 and found  March 1907 death Margaret Bell age 79
                   Haltwhistle  10b 257
  So many Bells all with same names I am losing the plot and going to bed good luck the rest of you !
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Friday 05 August 05 00:19 BST (UK)
I've given up on this challenge already :(

All these Bells are giving me a headache ;D


Jan
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: alcrighton on Friday 05 August 05 00:30 BST (UK)
I've given up on this challenge already :(

All these Bells are giving me a headache ;D


Jan

I think the technical term is Tinitus(?) - ringing in th ears  ::)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Friday 05 August 05 00:40 BST (UK)
Margaret's husband John Bell's family, I guess from his age , birthplace and his mother's name.

1861 at Hartleyburn, Halton Lee Gate:
John Bell 43 coal miner
Barbara wife 44
Jane dau 14 dressmaker
William son 12 coal miner
Mary Ann dau 9
Margaret dau 7
John son 4 all born Haltwhistle

John's wife is Barbara Teasdale.

Supported by BMD and IGI.

She should be easy (easier ?) to trace.


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Friday 05 August 05 01:11 BST (UK)
We are close to Scotland.
Can someone remind us of the naming tradition?

We may have "Lucy" skipping a generation.


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: JAP on Friday 05 August 05 04:37 BST (UK)
I've given up on this challenge already :(

All these Bells are giving me a headache ;D
Jan

"...   the tintinnabulation ...
From the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
...   the swinging and the ringing
Of the Bells, Bells, Bells,
Of the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
...
Oh, the Bells, Bells, Bells!
...  the Bells-
...  the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
...   the throbbing of the Bells-
...  the Bells, Bells, Bells-
...  the sobbing of the Bells;
...  the rolling of the Bells-
...   the Bells, Bells, Bells:
...  the tolling of the Bells,
...  the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells-
Bells, Bells, Bells-
...   the moaning and the groaning of the Bells."

With apologies to Edgar Allen Poe:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nmoreira/poetry/poe.html

Sorry ::)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 05 August 05 08:40 BST (UK)
on the IGI - there is a Jane Bell christened at Presbyterian NC Haltwhistle Northumberland.

The birthdate is listed as June 15 1857, christened on JUly 16 1857, parenst listed as Philip Bell and Mary.

Thought this was worth a look.  

Tom


A lookup in the Haltwhistle 1851 census index has given:
Folio 214
Hannah 93
Philip 40
Mary 42
William 16
Thomas 63
Helen 46

The index doesn't give anything else unfortunately.
If Philip and Mary were together it may account for the Jane baptised in Haltwhistle 1857.  Bell is such a common name, but could it be possible that Philip remarried; Margaret was quite a bit younger than Philip.  Its possibly odd that we haven't got a son of Philip and Margaret called Philip, all their children called one of their sons Philip.  Was their a Philip by a previous marriage?
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Lloydy on Friday 05 August 05 08:47 BST (UK)
I think the technical term is Tinitus(?) - ringing in the ears ::)


Oh yes, of course it is Al ;D :D

"... the tintinnabulation ...
From the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
... the swinging and the ringing
Of the Bells, Bells, Bells,
Of the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
...
Oh, the Bells, Bells, Bells!
... the Bells-
... the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells,
Bells, Bells, Bells-
... the throbbing of the Bells-
... the Bells, Bells, Bells-
... the sobbing of the Bells;
... the rolling of the Bells-
... the Bells, Bells, Bells:
... the tolling of the Bells,
... the Bells, Bells, Bells, Bells-
Bells, Bells, Bells-
... the moaning and the groaning of the Bells."

STOP! STOP! STOP! Enough of the Bells ;D

Anyway, now back to the serious matter of the August Challenge............................ ;)


Jan
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 05 August 05 08:48 BST (UK)
Re the 1851 list from Haltwhistle: There is though a Philip Bell age 50 widower in Haltwhistle in 1861.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Friday 05 August 05 15:45 BST (UK)

Project got a little out of hand.


cep, you're clearly not a person who likes half measures! ;D

Wonder if these Bells had any prior link to whisky? :)

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Friday 05 August 05 20:22 BST (UK)
Re the 1851 list from Haltwhistle: There is though a Philip Bell age 50 widower in Haltwhistle in 1861.

If you have access to 1851, I would like to know parents of the farming Bells, please.

1861 Melkridge RG9 3867 16 p7
[Melkridge is just East of Haltwhistle]

Horse Close
John Fairlamb, head, unm, 26, Farmer 40 ac, b. Haltwhistle
Jane Fairlamb, sister, unm, 28, Housekeeper, b. Haltwhistle
Mary Fairlamb, sister, unm, 23, Dressmaker, b. Haltwhistle
Jane Bell, neice,   13, Domestic Serv, b. Haltwhistle

Next door:

Vicars Allotment
Robert Bell jnr, head, unm, 24, Farmer, b. Haltwhistle
Philip Bell, brother, unm, 21, Farmer, b. Haltwhistle
William Bell, brother, unm, 17, Scholar, b. Haltwhistle
Sarah Bell, sister, unm, 19, Farmers dau, b. Haltwhistle
Margaret Garner, sister, mar, Doctors wife, b. Haltwhistle
Harriet M Garner, neice,   9, Scholar, b. Haltwhistle
Robert Garner, nephew,   6, Scholar, b. Haltwhistle


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Saturday 06 August 05 00:47 BST (UK)
We are connected somehow to this lot:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.d.little/family/Hudspith.html


Someone please follow up, I am busy with the farmers in Melkridge.



CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Saturday 06 August 05 06:37 BST (UK)
Hi CEP

Duly contacted -well spotted!

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Saturday 06 August 05 09:14 BST (UK)
Summaries updated to include Philip's daughter Margaret and her family.  Her in law Bells have been posted as well (reply #2). We haven't got anything yet on John's in laws; he married Hannah Mitchelson Atkinson 1892.  Neither do we have Jane's in laws,; she married Thomas Richardson 1878.
Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Sunday 07 August 05 12:30 BST (UK)
Naming Tradition

From June Challenge:

by JoT

Scottish naming tradition has it that (with some variations according to family):
1st son - paternal grandfather
2nd son - maternal grandfather
3rd son - father
1st daughter - maternal grandmother
2nd daughter -  paternal grandmother
3rd daughter - mother

by liverpool annie

 Irish naming patterns
 
 First son after father's father
 Second son after mother's father
 Third son after father
 Fourth son after father's oldest brother
 Fifth son after mother's oldest brother
 
 
 First daughter after mother's mother (or father's mother)
 Second daughter after father's mother (or mother's mother)
 Third daughter after mother
 Fourth daughter after mother's oldest sister
 Fifth daughter after father's oldest sister



Our Philip Bell, b. 1821 has

Daughter Jane:  First son = Philip b. 1881

Son Anthony:  First son = Philip b. 1895

Daughter Margaret:  First son = Philip b. 1892

Son John:  Second son = Philip b. 1895


Our Philip named his first son Anthony.
So his (Philip's) father MAY be Anthony.

From Summaries:
1857 June 16 possible chr Jane Bell parents Philip and Mary Bell Presyterian NC Haltwhistle (page 4)

Family may be Presbyterian.

From my post page 7:

Year    Date    Name      s/d  Father  Mother          Surname
1813    5-May   Margaret  d    Anthony Catherine(Kirk) Bell
1816    21-May  John      s    Anthony Catherine(Kirk) Bell
1821    15-Sep  William   s    Anthony Catherine(Kirk) Bell

These were from the Presbyterian register, Haltwhistle. IGI C002862


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Holly Golightly on Sunday 07 August 05 12:50 BST (UK)
Also listed on IGI is another child to Anthony Bell & Catherine Kirk:
Elizabeth b-7 December 1811, christened 12 April 1812, Haltwhistle.

Wasnt P.B born 1811/12?

Holly
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Sunday 07 August 05 13:09 BST (UK)
Anthony Bell m. Catherine Kirk
2 mar 1811, Haltwhistle

IGI Extracted entry.   M002851


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Sunday 07 August 05 13:46 BST (UK)
Anthony m. 1811, so possibly b. c 1785

Naming tradition:  His father MAY be Philip.

Anthony Bell b. 29 Aug 1783, Lanercost
Parents Philip & Margaret

IGI Extract P001921

Patron submissions give mother as Margaret Bowman
but wrong (mistranscribed?) date.

We need a Margaret!


CP

Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Monday 08 August 05 23:30 BST (UK)
CEP
          Could this be our Margaret
            B @ 1812
            C 5 MAY 1813
         MARGARET daughter of ANTONY BELL
                                              & CATHERINE KIRK

            HIGH SCOTCOULTERD
                HALTWHISTLE
                  NORTHUMBERLAND
          married 12 Dec 1838 to George  Kirk
            died 20 Sept 1887


            With Haltwhisle showing as CUMBERLAND and  NORTHUMBERLAND we are again crossing borders

                          TAZZIE
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Monday 08 August 05 23:45 BST (UK)
Tazzie,

That is certainly the Margaret baptised at Haltwhistle Presbyterian.

What is your source, please?


Regards   CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Monday 08 August 05 23:50 BST (UK)
Hi CEP
             just sheer brilliance......
  well that or trawling through the IGI for the last 3 hours then tried all of UK and the word Haltwhistle leapt out
Is it in Cumberland or Northumberland ?
        Anyway that rush of blood to the head means I need to go and lie down so clocking off for now
               bye TAZZIE
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Monday 08 August 05 23:51 BST (UK)
Check her on 1861!

The children have all the right names, and we can get George's parents!


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Tuesday 09 August 05 00:36 BST (UK)
Absolutely Priceless!

Maps, villages, farms, names.

http://www.dickinsons-of-whitfield.org/TownsAndFarms.html


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Tuesday 09 August 05 08:26 BST (UK)
Here we go with another a nother batch...........

           Margaret Bell married George Kirk 12 Dec 1838

             Georges parents   George Kirk and Margaret Craig
            George dies 31 May 1857
 as I have not got census access I took a chance and jumped to 1881 where I found

                   Margaret    w   67  b Henshaw    farmer 317  acs
                William    son      41
                John       son       40
              Elizabeth dau       36
              Margeret  dau       28
              Annie        dau      25
               George  g/son     13
    all at a farm in CADGERFORD    HENSHAW

 George died at CADGERFORD in 1857

      Will go and check all other options or am I going back too far now
                             TAZZIE
   
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Tuesday 09 August 05 09:24 BST (UK)
WITH BIG BIG THANKS TO A POSTING ANSWERED BY CAZ...........

           1861 Margaret Kirk head /wid b1814 Hanshaw
                    William                            b1840
                    John                                b1841
                    Catherine                        b1843
                    Antony                            b1847
                   Elizabeth                          b1847
                   Margaret                          b 1853
                  & Anne                              b 1856
          Tazzie
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 09 August 05 10:31 BST (UK)
Sorry been away from this a while; trying desperately to finish decorating before school starts next week.
Realise you're having fun here with the Bells, but we can't link them up to Philip on just a supposition of the naming tradition, can we?
I would agree that the name Anthony is one likely to be in the family as surely its not that common. 1861 shows only 6 born in cumberland between 1810 and 1850, plus of course ours who's down as Beed, and only 8 born in Northumberland between 1790 and 1855.  A search on ancestry.co for registrations of Anthony Bell in Cumberland over  1837 - 1877 has only 11 results for the whole county with only 1 death in Brampton district 1842; Northumberland has more results for the county but with only, in Haltwhistle district, 2 births 1853, 1859.
Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Tuesday 09 August 05 11:23 BST (UK)
Our Philip was born in Upper Denton according to the censuses, in 1817 according to death registration and 1891 census (1820/21 according to other censuses). Others born at Denton in 1861 census:

at Farlam:
John Bell unmar 64 Land proprietor born Denton
Rachel sister unmar 58 housekeeper born Farlam
William brother unmar 42 ag lab born Farlam

at 17 Bloomfield Road, Paddington
James T Bell 56 late captain royal Westmorland Militia born Denton
Louisa wife 55 born Middlesex

at Brampton
John Bell 70 cotton weaver born Denton
Jane wife 65 all cotton weavers born Brampton
John son 32
Richard son 28
Margaret dau 16

at Upper Denton
Thomas Bell 48 landed proprietor all born Denton
Mary wife 45
Jane dau 10
mary Ann Ferguson granddau 3

at Fenton
John Bell 60 ag lab born Denton
Mary wife 60 born Yorkshire

at Upper Denton
John Bell 39 Tailor employs 2 born Denton
Elizabeth wife 50 born Brampton
George Foster app 16 apprentice
William Carridie? app 15 apprentice

There's also others born at Nether Denton, which is on the way to Brampton from Denton.  Will get those next.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 10 August 05 12:10 BST (UK)
Loking at the Bells born in Denton according to the 1861:

John, Rachel and William were children of James Bell and Mary Richardson
John born 18 Feb 1797 chr 23 Jan 1800 at Farlam
Rachel chr 3 Feb 1803 at Farlam
William chr 8 Jan 1819 Farlam
also Joseph born 21 Fb 1799 chr 25 Jan 1800 Farlam
Ann chr 29 Dec 1800 Farlam
James chr 25 Dec 1807 Farlam
Mary chr 14 July 1811 Farlam

James Thomas Bell chr 28 Dec 1808 at Brampton, parents James Bell and Mary Robinson
also John chr 17 May 1801
Elizabeth chr 28 Dec 1808

Looking for Thomas Bell I found:
LDS record Thomas Bell chr 20 Dec 1812 Over Denton Nailor
parish record Thomas Bell chr 20 Dec 1812 Lanercost
parents Anthony Bell and Jane Graham who were married at Lanercost 25 Nov 1812 (LDS record)

Upper Denton was also known as Over Denton.
Our Philip had 2 children Anthony and Jane.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Wednesday 10 August 05 14:51 BST (UK)
Our Philip Bell, b. 1820, married Margaret Unknown, date unknown.

Looking at births of known children, assume marriage sometime 1855 - 1858.

FreeBMD, Ancestry,  have only one Philip Bell married in this period.

Gateshead Q1 1858 10a 532

Also checked images from 1837online - no other Philip Bell marriage.
And the reference 10a 532 is right - at least, I cannot make anything different from it.

Gateshead 10a 532 does not show any other persons.

I cannot find any Philip Bell in 1861 census who might, reasonably, have married at Gateshead in 1858.

There is a Gateshead connection;
Philip's son, John Bell, b. 1867, married there, 1892
Spouse: Hannah Mitchelson Atkinson

Possibilities:

Our Philip DID marry in Gateshead
Married pre-1855
Marriage never registered
Philip has another name


Thoughts?   CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Wednesday 10 August 05 15:32 BST (UK)
Margaret's husband John Bell's family, I guess from his age , birthplace and his mother's name.

1861 at Hartleyburn, Halton Lee Gate:
John Bell 43 coal miner
Barbara wife 44
Jane dau 14 dressmaker
William son 12 coal miner
Mary Ann dau 9
Margaret dau 7
John son 4 all born Haltwhistle

John's wife is Barbara Teasdale.

Supported by BMD and IGI.

She should be easy (easier ?) to trace.


CP

Barbara b. 1817, from 1861 census.


Barbara Teasdale bap. 19 Oct 1817, Haltwhistle

Parents: William & Hannah      LDS Extract P002851


Children of William & Hannah (Bushby) from P002851

Sarah 1802
William 1804
John 1807
Thomas 1810
Hannah 1812
Isabella 1815
Barbara 1817
Matthew 1820
Jacob 1822
Obadiah 1826


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Wednesday 10 August 05 18:07 BST (UK)
Philip is destined to elude us, even a earlier marriage for a Philip Bell at Hexham Northumberland Dec qtr 1842 has no one else on the page at Ancestry.co!!
Doesn't feel right somehow for Philip and Margaret to marry in Gateshead when both are down as being born local to Denton in the censuses and the children were born local as well.
John was in Gateshead in 1891 boarding with sister Jane and family.  I guess her husband Thomas Richardson moved over for work in the mines as he was a colliery engineer.  John could have just been in Gateshead through hearing about work from his sister.
On the other hand I can't see Philip being down in the marriage registers with another name since his name has been consistant.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Wednesday 10 August 05 18:24 BST (UK)

Doesn't feel right somehow for Philip and Margaret to marry in Gateshead when both are down as being born local to Denton in the censuses and the children were born local as well.


Mary may have come with parents to our area at young age, then returned to ancestral home for marriage?


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Thursday 11 August 05 16:16 BST (UK)
Philip is destined to elude us, even a earlier marriage for a Philip Bell at Hexham Northumberland Dec qtr 1842 has no one else on the page at Ancestry.co!!


Hexham Marriages Vol 25 Page 349

BIRKIT, Thomas   1842 December Marriages Hexham  Northumberland
Johnson, Ann     1842 December Marriages Hexham  Northumberland
Ridley, Isabella 1842 December Marriages Hexham  Northumberland


Looking at the image for Philip Bell, he should be on this page.


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: alcrighton on Thursday 11 August 05 16:43 BST (UK)
Just checked the image of the index for q Dec 1842 and it definitely says 25 349 for Philip.

Unfortunately I think there were 4 couples per page in the registers of this period so we're still missing 4 people including the person Philip married.  We're fairly certain he didn't marry Isabella or Ann and even more certain he didn't marry Thomas  ;D

Al
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 12 August 05 08:48 BST (UK)
Need someone who has this microfiche to find our Philip:

Croglin, Farlam, Nether Denton & Over Denton Baptisms, Marriages & Burials 1813-1839   £4.50     
Indexed by G. Bell & C. Yellowley.


 
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Friday 12 August 05 12:13 BST (UK)
carol80 posted this link     Page 2

http://edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/ak/INDEX.HTM


Atkinson - Bell in North Cumberland

B, M & D


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 12 August 05 12:52 BST (UK)
I checked through that link a number of times.  It has Births, marriages and burials at St. Cuthbert's, Nether Denton and St. Mary Magdalene, Lanercost. Although there seem to be some entries at Lanercost of people living at Upper Denton, there seems to have a church at Upper (Over) Denton as well.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: cep on Friday 12 August 05 13:01 BST (UK)
On that site I found baptism of John Bell, s. of Philip & Margaret, b. 1867

If you search there, try "Phillip",  two 'el'

I am still 'analyzing the data' !


CP
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 12 August 05 13:19 BST (UK)
Looking at the Bells born Nether Denton in the 1861 and then trying to find them on the IGI brought up:
Edward Bell chr 13 Feb 1820 Nether Denton mother Margaret Bell C059461
Edward Bell chr 13 Feb 1820 Over Denton mother Margaret Bell C059431

Both batch numbers link to same list.
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 12 August 05 13:28 BST (UK)
Lanercost batch number P001921
includes Lancelot Bell chr 23 Apr 1771!!
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Friday 12 August 05 13:33 BST (UK)
Philip and Margaret Bell christened the following at Lanercost:
Margaret 3 Jun 1772
Jane 30 Apr 1775
Elizabeth 1 Mar 1778
Ann 18 Feb 1781
Philip and Anthony 29 Aug 1783
John 23 Jan 1786
John 29 Mar 1789
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Friday 12 August 05 22:23 BST (UK)
Possible Bell Baptisms, Burials & Marriages in the Denton area of Cumberland. They might be useful later. :)

http://edenlinks.rootsweb.com/1gp/ak/INDEX.HTM

AHEM cep -  Just so you know - I posted this link on page 1. :)
I figured it might be useful later - and 10 pages later it IS being useful. :)

BD
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Sunday 14 August 05 07:17 BST (UK)
We are connected somehow to this lot:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.d.little/family/Hudspith.html


Someone please follow up, I am busy with the farmers in Melkridge.



CP

Response from Mr Little has been to send me another contact who is searching the Hudspiths, so I have now e-mailed them and asked them to look at this thread.

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Sunday 14 August 05 22:16 BST (UK)
We are connected somehow to this lot:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.d.little/family/Hudspith.html

Someone please follow up, I am busy with the farmers in Melkridge.

CP

Hi CEP

I've had a response from a Dave Hudspith who has looked at (I think) some of this thread, but hasn't been able to work out how his ancestors are linked here.
Do you have any pointers?

cheers


Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Saturday 20 August 05 08:38 BST (UK)
We seem to have got to the point of being completely stuck  :)  We have some possibilities for Philip's ancestry and possibilies for his wife Margaret's maiden name but nothing that we can be in any way sure about.  Even trying to follow up his daughter Jane's in laws and his son John's in laws is problematic with a number of Thomas Richardsons in the area and loads of Hannah M Atkinsons.
Don't know where else to look.
I think all we can say is that should someone from the family come along one day there is enough here with the addition of a couple of certificates to give them a good helping hand.
Can people please consider whether they would like to host September's challenge?  I really can't do one during term time and to be honest I'm quite glad we've got stuck this month as the start of term this week has been beyond hectic ::)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Sunday 21 August 05 17:50 BST (UK)
Well done, JoT, (and everyone else) in taking this as far as you have! 
As you say, this is a great helping hand that's awaiting any member of this family who might be looking.

As per previous months, any volunteers might care to PM JoT.  Its the 'pleasure' of each month's host to choose the next one!

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Monday 22 August 05 18:30 BST (UK)
Burrow Digger has kindly (or is that madly?) volunteered to host September's challenge. I'm certianly looking forward to escaping the Bells ;D
Jo
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Keziahemm on Monday 22 August 05 21:14 BST (UK)
Well done Burrow-Digger - must be mad  ::)

and well done Jo - I got thoroughly confused by the Bell's as I followed the challenge  :o

Susan  ;D

Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Tuesday 23 August 05 02:41 BST (UK)
soooo
do you'all want me to wait till Sept 1st?

that will give you all a 10 day break to enjoy the summer with no guilt & get the kids ready to go back to school  :)

since I'm in Canada - timewise I am 5 hours behind the UK - so it will BE Sept first when I post  :)

BD
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Tuesday 23 August 05 06:19 BST (UK)
Hi BD

I agree - I think a well-earned break is in order!  Its been a slow month on Rootschat but hopefuly the approach of Autumn (and September 1st!) will bring renewed vigour to bear on yet another random 'victim' from 1881! :)

cheers


Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Burrow Digger on Thursday 25 August 05 00:42 BST (UK)
so JOT do you have any final summary fo the BELL family? I hate seeing a thread just sort of fizzle out.....  :)

BD

(just 7 more days until the new challenge starts) :)
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Joanna Tolhurst on Thursday 25 August 05 07:10 BST (UK)
I'll do a final summary at the weekend so if anyone has an urge to be lucky and uncover some vital clue please post before saturday ;D
Title: Re: August Challenge
Post by: LouiseB31 on Thursday 25 August 05 11:34 BST (UK)
1861
Brampton waterhead cumberland
RG9/3908 folio 20 Page 5
Philip Bell Head Mar 41 Joiner Cumberland, Upper Denton
Margaret do wife Mar 32      Northumberland, Haltwhistle
Jane do    daur 3                       do  do
Anthony do  son 1                       do  do

I've got nothing to contribute to the genealogy, I desperately wish I had, but what I can do is tell you that Waterhead is a fantastically popular tourist location in the middle of the Lake District. For those of you who are overseas you should know that this is probably one of the most visited places in the country. Mountains and lakes and sheer beauty (and millions of cars and tourists). Wordsworth wrote his poetry here and Beatrix Potter drew her little animals.

Here is a link to a hotel at Waterhead so you can have an idea what it is like now.

It is close to Ambleside which is one of the main towns in the Lake District

http://www.lakesbreaks.com/ambleside-hotels_s6905/

Best wishes
Louise
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: tazzie on Tuesday 30 August 05 21:09 BST (UK)
Good luck Burrow Digger.
  This was the first time I had a go and it was great fun even if I did start to lose the plot with all those Bells .
      Roll on 1st September will be back to you all then.

                       TAZZIE
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: Paul E on Wednesday 31 August 05 23:44 BST (UK)
The September Challenge has now been opened by Burrow Digger, at:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=85358.new#new

Good hunting!

Paul
Title: Re: August 2005 RootsChat Challenge
Post by: anthony pearson on Wednesday 07 October 09 11:05 BST (UK)
hi
is any one looking for aelizabeth bell married to a joseph pearson in cumberland they married in  about
1812
there is a margaret bell married to a john pearson he is a brother to joseph
all from cumberland

also looking for info on a william pearson who whent to work for the hewetson family he is a miner
we have him in 1851 census in hartleyburn (district 5a) we have not got the 1861 census

thanks