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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: MissJP on Monday 31 July 17 21:17 BST (UK)
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Tracing my gypsy family in Lincs area, but they are so intertwined I am in a muddle. Anyone else researching this family?
It starts getting in a mess with Constance Gray Elliott, who is the daughter of Jemima Elliott and her sisters (Lydia Elliott) husband, Charles Gray! This then makes my GGGGG grandparents the same people - my tree looks odd!
Were they polygymous? Charles & Lydia had children together before & after Constance was born to Jemima, but Jemima married William Newbury.
It's all so confusing!
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Can you include birthyears and birthplaces please and also marriage years and places
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Hi, thank you for your reply.
Constance Gray Elliott was born Apr 1836 in Potterhanworth, Linc, to Jemima Elliott and Charles Gray. Charles was married to Jemima's sister Lydia at the time.
Constance married a William Elliott, who I guess must be a relative but I have yet to work out the link. He was born around 1835 in Willoughby on the Wolds, as many of the Elliotts are.
Their daughter Charlotte (1863) married Frederick Gray (1862) in around 1890, and I believe they were cousins. He was also a grandson of Charles Gray, but of Lydia not Jemima. His father was Charles & Lydia's son John (abt 1835). I have his mother as Eliza, but I have no further info on her.
Jemima and Lydia are the children of John Elliott (1775) and Jemima Smith (1776).
I get confused with all the links, so I hope I have this right. If anyone has info on who William Elliott is, who Eliza might be or anything else, I'd be grateful.
I am also curious about Jemima having a baby with her sisters husband during their marriage - was this usual?
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I would just love to learn more about the Elliots & Grays, my grandmother just turned 80 and had heard rumours of gypsy blood but they were forbidden to ask about it, so she is pleased that I have found this link.
I have also had my DNA tested, and wondered if there is anything I should look for there?
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Constance Gray Elliott was born Apr 1836 in Potterhanworth, Linc, to Jemima Elliott and Charles Gray. Charles was married to Jemima's sister Lydia at the time.
So Charles had an affair with his sister in law resulting in Jemima giving birth to Constance?
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It appears so, though they don't seem to hide it as he is named the father and has his surname as her middle name.
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1871 entry as shown on Family Search
Wm Ellitt Head M 36 Willoughby, Lincolnshire
Constance Ellitt Wife F 36 Branston, Lincolnshire
Lydia Ellitt Daughter F 14 Welby, Lincolnshire
Jemima Ellitt Daughter F 12 Hameringham, Lincolnshire
Charlotte Ellitt Daughter F 9 Newark, Nottinghamshire
John Ellitt Son M 7 Oaknell
Eliza Ellitt Daughter F 4 Longham, Lincolnshire
Charles Ellitt Son M 3 Bilingborough, Lincolnshire
Cristopher Ellitt Son M 1 North Kyme, Lincolnshire
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Yes, that's them. I think William and Constance are related (besides marriage) though have not found the link yet.
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What information does the 1856 marriage certificate between Constance Gray & William Elliott give regarding William Elliott and his father
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What information does the 1856 marriage certificate between Constance Gray & William Elliott give regarding William Elliott and his father
I don't have the cert, the info came from the marriage index on find my past.
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Ok, I checked again and Charles is not named as Constance's father on her baptism or birth index. I have no idea now where I got this info from, so I presume it is probably false. In that case, I have no idea who the father of Constance is and no way to find out?
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1871 entry as shown on Family Search
Wm Ellitt Head M 36 Willoughby, Lincolnshire
Constance Ellitt Wife F 36 Branston, Lincolnshire
Lydia Ellitt Daughter F 14 Welby, Lincolnshire
Jemima Ellitt Daughter F 12 Hameringham, Lincolnshire
Charlotte Ellitt Daughter F 9 Newark, Nottinghamshire
John Ellitt Son M 7 Oaknell
Eliza Ellitt Daughter F 4 Longham, Lincolnshire
Charles Ellitt Son M 3 Bilingborough, Lincolnshire
Cristopher Ellitt Son M 1 North Kyme, Lincolnshire
I wonder if this might be William Elliot’s 1836 christening in North Witham
parents John & Lydia
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQRB-JTL
1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWM7-D55
William Elliot occ Gipsy Horsedealer, Constance, Lydia & Jemima
Constance Grey Elliot mother Jemima
1836 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9TW-JR8
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Thank you! If that is indeed the same William, then he is the son of Jemima & Lydia's brother John. That would make Constance and William first cousins?
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Hi ,MissJP ,i'm an Elliott my granny was Ginny Elliott son of Fred his parents were Thomas Elliott and Lydia Wiltshire ,Thomas parents were William Elliott 1812 and Harriet Gray .William was brother to your Jemima and Lydia
William married to Constance was the son of John and Lydia Elliott.He was born 1836 in Willoughby on the Wolds baptized 1st May 1836 in Castle Bytham, married to Constance 4th April 1856 Castle Bytham .
William was the son of John Elliott baptized 6th April 1800 in Willoughby on the Wolds and died 1856 Folkingham ,lincs .
John married Lydia Newberry Williams mother ,7th August 1828 in Skillington lincs,he also had children with Lydias sister Alice ... John was the son of John and Jemima so brother to your Jemima and uncle to Constance .My 3xs greatgrandad was also uncle to Constance and William ....gets more confusing ...I have taken a DNA test and uploaded my results to a free site called GED match.It would fascinating to compare results !
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more info ,Charles Gray is the son of Charles Gray baptized 20th Jan 1783 in Meldreth Cambs and is brother to my Harriet Gray .The Grays and Elliott intermarried for generations ...
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Hi, my gedmatch number is A489330 if want to see if we match?
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Hi ,I'm m123704 and we share at reduced threshold only ...I am in a group on fb, Romany dna only let me know if you would like to join ....Janey
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I would love to join, thank you.
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Im descended from Charles gray of Meldreth via his son Christopher Gray who married Maria Smith d/o William Smith and Ann Elliott of Willoughby on the Wolds. These two ended their days in Horncastle.
Christopher & Maria had my great great grandad Samuel Gray, who married Deliah Smith the daughter of Thomas Smith and Mary Brown. These were all travelling families and they repeatedly intermarry.
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An65, have you taken a DNA test? Would be interesting to see if we share any.
I am stuck with my 4th great Grandmother, Eliza Elliott born about 1835. She married John Gray (of Charles and Lydia) but I cannot find who her parents were or when she married John. Their first child was born 1855.
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I know who you mean, I don't know who she was either, b.1834 (ish) Ingoldsby.
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Yes, that's the one but I cannot find anyone who fits.
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Eliza Elliott born about 1835. She married John Gray (of Charles and Lydia) but I cannot find who her parents were or when she married John. Their first child was born 1855.
I guess you are aware that the late Vivienne M. Halton in "The Descendants of John and Jemima Elliott and related families" shows John Gray bap 31 Oct 1833 Anwick, Lincs partnering Eliza Elliott born c1834 Ingoldsby, Lincs on page 21 but it looks like she hadn't managed to take Eliza back any further and she doesn't give a date for a marriage.
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I haven't bought or looked at that book, so thank you for the information :)
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Im descended from Charles gray of Meldreth via his son Christopher Gray who married Maria Smith d/o William Smith and Ann Elliott of Willoughby on the Wolds. These two ended their days in Horncastle.
Christopher & Maria had my great great grandad Samuel Gray, who married Deliah Smith the daughter of Thomas Smith and Mary Brown. These were all travelling families and they repeatedly intermarry.
Hi An65
I'm descended from William and Ann too (if I have done my tree correctly) Their daughter Matilda is my ggg grandmother.
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Sounds right - Matilda m. George Fairy.
Welcome to the fam.
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Thank you
Yes that's them. Their daughter Abigail is my grandfathers grandmother. I think Abigail is where they stop being known as travellers. Those in my family I've spoken to didn't know of any travellers in the family. Which seems such a shame to have no kept any connections. I think Abigail married a local lad as I don't see any hints to a traveller history on his side.
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Abigail was a name often used in the family. My own great grandad Ambrose had an older sister Abigail who unfortunately died.
Whilst Ambie married within the community his daughter my gran Flo married outside & settled. She died when mum was 11 so mum didn’t really work it out til we started tracing the tree, she knew they worked with horses but that was all really. So, similar story.
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Yes I have seen it come up a lot in that tree. I know travellers do have name patterns.
I think our situation was pretty similar. Our Abigail died in her 40s so I think very little information was passed on. That and they have moved to Yorkshire from Lincolnshire and her parents had a few arrests for disorderly behaviour under their belts. Tough lives for them all I guess!
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Sorry just realised you said yourself our stories are similar. My eyesight is shocking at the moment. :D
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my grandmother was Jane /Jenny Elliott ,daughter of Fred Elliot born around 1865.
Fred was the son of Thomas Elliott 1837 and Lydia Wilsher /Wiltshire .
Thomas was the son of William Elliott 1812 and Harriet Gray daughter of Charles of Meldreth and Charlotte Hurst .
William was the son of John and Jemmina Elliott 1775 .
I,m Romany both sides of my family and know a lot of my family's History also i have taken a dna test ... regards ...Janey ..
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Hiya Janey good to see you’re still around on here.
Don’t worry my eyesights not too great either 🤣
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Hi Ann ,not been on for ages ,i got a notification ,so i,m back ...just looking at Ancestry again ....back on the hunt !
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Similar! Good hunting!